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	<title>Comments on: Do I Not Live?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 15:25:56 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Charles Ames</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-224371</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Ames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-224371</guid>
		<description>&quot;Are you of a kind that has the capacity to reproduce&quot; rather than &quot;have you reproduced&quot; is how I take the definition, so I&#039;m comfortable allowing that Sean is probably alive.  However, a thing must die in order to have ever been alive.  Any ongoing complex material process operating far from equilibrium that neither stops (dies) nor has the ability to reproduce is... yet to be observed in nature?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Are you of a kind that has the capacity to reproduce&#8221; rather than &#8220;have you reproduced&#8221; is how I take the definition, so I&#8217;m comfortable allowing that Sean is probably alive.  However, a thing must die in order to have ever been alive.  Any ongoing complex material process operating far from equilibrium that neither stops (dies) nor has the ability to reproduce is&#8230; yet to be observed in nature?</p>
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		<title>By: george briggs</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-224240</link>
		<dc:creator>george briggs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-224240</guid>
		<description>has anyone noticed that evolving life has the symmetry SU(3)? four DNA building blocks for each parent, or 8 total. this is what Steven Wildberg called the 8 fold way, for the above aymmetry.This is interesting in view of fact that there are 8 basic kinds of non decaying matter (electron, neutrino, proton and dueteron plus their antiparticles}</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>has anyone noticed that evolving life has the symmetry SU(3)? four DNA building blocks for each parent, or 8 total. this is what Steven Wildberg called the 8 fold way, for the above aymmetry.This is interesting in view of fact that there are 8 basic kinds of non decaying matter (electron, neutrino, proton and dueteron plus their antiparticles}</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: amphiox</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-221894</link>
		<dc:creator>amphiox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:18:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-221894</guid>
		<description>I would say that life requires reproduction, and that if it is made up of components that are alive (and reproduce), then it is alive even if it itself does not reproduce.

Of course, by this definition, societies and civilizations would qualify for being alive, but in my opinion, they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say that life requires reproduction, and that if it is made up of components that are alive (and reproduce), then it is alive even if it itself does not reproduce.</p>
<p>Of course, by this definition, societies and civilizations would qualify for being alive, but in my opinion, they are.</p>
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		<title>By: Zabaleta</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-220948</link>
		<dc:creator>Zabaleta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-220948</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s certainly life without reproduction. I therefore conclude by saying this three-letter sentence: &quot;Go fuck yourselves!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s certainly life without reproduction. I therefore conclude by saying this three-letter sentence: &#8220;Go fuck yourselves!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dylan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-220817</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-220817</guid>
		<description>On the cellular level, reproduction is absolutely necessary, but on the larger level you&#039;re right:  reproduction cannot constitute life.  If it did, mules (combination of horse and donkey that always results in a sterile animal) wouldn&#039;t be considered alive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the cellular level, reproduction is absolutely necessary, but on the larger level you&#8217;re right:  reproduction cannot constitute life.  If it did, mules (combination of horse and donkey that always results in a sterile animal) wouldn&#8217;t be considered alive.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-220391</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-220391</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that when you talk about &quot;building an organism from scratch&quot; there is some presupposition that you can separate an organism from its environment.  However, from what I understand, such mechanisms as adaptation and selection are functions of the environment, and therefore creating such an organism would not be observationally replicable for all intents and purposes. You would have to identify an organism that is as evolved and sufficiently complex as modern observed organisms, but without reproduction with heritable traits. But the last the time I checked, such mechanisms as adaptation and selection work through the gateway of reproduction with heritable traits, and these are in turn a function of the environment.  Has your &quot;from scratch&quot; organism ever been observed and how would you go about identifying it as such? How would such a &quot;from scratch&quot; organism come into existence?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that when you talk about &#8220;building an organism from scratch&#8221; there is some presupposition that you can separate an organism from its environment.  However, from what I understand, such mechanisms as adaptation and selection are functions of the environment, and therefore creating such an organism would not be observationally replicable for all intents and purposes. You would have to identify an organism that is as evolved and sufficiently complex as modern observed organisms, but without reproduction with heritable traits. But the last the time I checked, such mechanisms as adaptation and selection work through the gateway of reproduction with heritable traits, and these are in turn a function of the environment.  Has your &#8220;from scratch&#8221; organism ever been observed and how would you go about identifying it as such? How would such a &#8220;from scratch&#8221; organism come into existence?</p>
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		<title>By: tsardrosdobrad</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-220386</link>
		<dc:creator>tsardrosdobrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-220386</guid>
		<description>&quot;I don’t have kids and don’t plan on having any”

Plans are just that plans. Plans are the back-up, there is the surprise factor that only nature controls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I don’t have kids and don’t plan on having any”</p>
<p>Plans are just that plans. Plans are the back-up, there is the surprise factor that only nature controls.</p>
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		<title>By: Phillip Helbig</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-220336</link>
		<dc:creator>Phillip Helbig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-220336</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;&quot;I don’t have kids and don’t plan on having any&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

Joining the prestigious company of Steven Pinker.  Since you publicly state your wish not to have children, I suppose it&#039;s fair to ask what the reasons for it are.  Consider that you are, compared to most people, in a much better position to have children.  Also, there are many successful cosmologists (Barrow, Hawking, Sciama, Peebles---probably many more, but I don&#039;t always know how many children people have) who have many children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;I don’t have kids and don’t plan on having any&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Joining the prestigious company of Steven Pinker.  Since you publicly state your wish not to have children, I suppose it&#8217;s fair to ask what the reasons for it are.  Consider that you are, compared to most people, in a much better position to have children.  Also, there are many successful cosmologists (Barrow, Hawking, Sciama, Peebles&#8212;probably many more, but I don&#8217;t always know how many children people have) who have many children.</p>
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		<title>By: new earth</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-220239</link>
		<dc:creator>new earth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2012 04:55:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-220239</guid>
		<description>If this reproducing thing were true then life does not begin until reproduction is successful and complete, which would imply that babies are born dead and remain dead for quite some time. This would lead to all sorts of moral and legal issue, but would resolve the ethical issues surrounding stem cell research and others. This would also explain why many counties have no respect for children...but then they also have no respect for their elderly...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If this reproducing thing were true then life does not begin until reproduction is successful and complete, which would imply that babies are born dead and remain dead for quite some time. This would lead to all sorts of moral and legal issue, but would resolve the ethical issues surrounding stem cell research and others. This would also explain why many counties have no respect for children&#8230;but then they also have no respect for their elderly&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dunc</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-220118</link>
		<dc:creator>Dunc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-220118</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The question is whether I am alive, not my cells.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, if you want to draw &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; sort of distinction, we first have to decide whether &quot;you&quot; even exist in the first place...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The question is whether I am alive, not my cells.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, if you want to draw <i>that</i> sort of distinction, we first have to decide whether &#8220;you&#8221; even exist in the first place&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: MyName</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-219943</link>
		<dc:creator>MyName</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-219943</guid>
		<description>I agree that, philosophically, you not only can but should leave out reproduction from the definition. Otherwise, you could have an engineered organism that was complex enough to feel pain or even more than just pain, and if it was engineered to be sterile, you could get away with treating it as not being alive which would open up the door to unethical behavior.

However, a naturally occurring living organism must be able to reproduce. Otherwise, it would have no way to evolve and may as well not be alive if you are looking at it through an evolutionary timeline.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that, philosophically, you not only can but should leave out reproduction from the definition. Otherwise, you could have an engineered organism that was complex enough to feel pain or even more than just pain, and if it was engineered to be sterile, you could get away with treating it as not being alive which would open up the door to unethical behavior.</p>
<p>However, a naturally occurring living organism must be able to reproduce. Otherwise, it would have no way to evolve and may as well not be alive if you are looking at it through an evolutionary timeline.</p>
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		<title>By: Tintin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-219938</link>
		<dc:creator>Tintin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:53:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-219938</guid>
		<description>Could Edward Trifonov be related to the AMAZING!!! young pianist Daniil Trifonov?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could Edward Trifonov be related to the AMAZING!!! young pianist Daniil Trifonov?</p>
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		<title>By: Do I Not Live? &#124; Matteo Rossini</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-219913</link>
		<dc:creator>Do I Not Live? &#124; Matteo Rossini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 20:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-219913</guid>
		<description>[...] Do I Not Live? Can we define “life” in just three words? Carl Zimmer of Loom fame has written a piece for Txchnologist in which he reports on an interesting attempt: biologist Edward Trifonov looked at other people’s definitions, rather than thinking about life itself. Sifting through over a hundred suggested definitions, Trifonov looked for what they had in common, and boiled life down to “self-reproduction with variations.” Just three words, although one of them is compound so I would argue that morally i&#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Do I Not Live? Can we define “life” in just three words? Carl Zimmer of Loom fame has written a piece for Txchnologist in which he reports on an interesting attempt: biologist Edward Trifonov looked at other people’s definitions, rather than thinking about life itself. Sifting through over a hundred suggested definitions, Trifonov looked for what they had in common, and boiled life down to “self-reproduction with variations.” Just three words, although one of them is compound so I would argue that morally i&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tintin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-219870</link>
		<dc:creator>Tintin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:38:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-219870</guid>
		<description>Life is a four-letter word.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Life is a four-letter word.</p>
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		<title>By: Rodolfo Hansen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-219847</link>
		<dc:creator>Rodolfo Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:36:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-219847</guid>
		<description>My definition of Life is:
&quot;The local minimization of entropy&quot;.


It&#039;s the evolution of structure through time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My definition of Life is:<br />
&#8220;The local minimization of entropy&#8221;.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the evolution of structure through time.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Peters</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-219837</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Peters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-219837</guid>
		<description>Like Sean, I took one look at &quot;self-reproducing&quot; and said &quot;that&#039;s four words&quot;. But on the second look... what the hell is the difference between &quot;self-reproducing&quot; and &quot;reproducing&quot;? If you&#039;re not reproducing yourself, you&#039;re just producing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like Sean, I took one look at &#8220;self-reproducing&#8221; and said &#8220;that&#8217;s four words&#8221;. But on the second look&#8230; what the hell is the difference between &#8220;self-reproducing&#8221; and &#8220;reproducing&#8221;? If you&#8217;re not reproducing yourself, you&#8217;re just producing.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Flinn</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-219740</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Flinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 01:06:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-219740</guid>
		<description>@Torbjörn Larsson responds: &quot;Nothing that is described by considering the informational properties of the genome learning process is added to a biologist’s definition of the evolutionary process: &#039;Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.&#039;”

I disagree--at a minimum an information-based approach demonstrates that the biologist&#039;s definition is best seen as a special case of a broader phenomenon than would be traditionally considered biological. For example, let&#039;s just pick on some innocuous little words in the biologist&#039;s definition. For example, &quot;many.&quot; Hmmm -- is it the next generation? Some arbitrary (i.e., observer dependent) number of generations, or is it unbounded? Seems kind of important to specify or &quot;fitness&quot; has no real meaning. And then there is &quot;population,&quot; which does not necessarily need to be biological as originally intended by biologists (e.g., memes per Dawkins).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Torbjörn Larsson responds: &#8220;Nothing that is described by considering the informational properties of the genome learning process is added to a biologist’s definition of the evolutionary process: &#8216;Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.&#8217;”</p>
<p>I disagree&#8211;at a minimum an information-based approach demonstrates that the biologist&#8217;s definition is best seen as a special case of a broader phenomenon than would be traditionally considered biological. For example, let&#8217;s just pick on some innocuous little words in the biologist&#8217;s definition. For example, &#8220;many.&#8221; Hmmm &#8212; is it the next generation? Some arbitrary (i.e., observer dependent) number of generations, or is it unbounded? Seems kind of important to specify or &#8220;fitness&#8221; has no real meaning. And then there is &#8220;population,&#8221; which does not necessarily need to be biological as originally intended by biologists (e.g., memes per Dawkins).</p>
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		<title>By: Guy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-219678</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-219678</guid>
		<description>Prof. Carroll if you don&#039;t mind, I DO have kids (well, one little boy and one girl/boy on the way). It would be REALLY nice of you if you can make an effort for my kids will grow up in a world that has SOME heir of your intellect and science communication skills. If it&#039;s not too much trouble. I can assure you that (statistically)  they are completely self-sufficient by the time they&#039;re 30 years old. even 25... :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof. Carroll if you don&#8217;t mind, I DO have kids (well, one little boy and one girl/boy on the way). It would be REALLY nice of you if you can make an effort for my kids will grow up in a world that has SOME heir of your intellect and science communication skills. If it&#8217;s not too much trouble. I can assure you that (statistically)  they are completely self-sufficient by the time they&#8217;re 30 years old. even 25&#8230; <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-219668</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 18:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-219668</guid>
		<description>Ouch, I need to clarify that too. In the new model, or even before that if I understand biologists correctly, I believe now non-argued diverse ancestry of viruses makes viruses an ecological niche, &quot;a way to &#039;live&#039;&quot;, rather than a monophyletic domain with its own common root as the other 3 (Bacteria, Archaea, Eukaryotes).

@ Steve Flinn:

Yes, but that the genome is decreasing its mutational Kolmogorov complexity by environmental selection by way of channeling Shannon information is known. Nothing that is described by considering the informational properties of the genome learning process is added to &lt;a href=&quot;http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/01/what-is-evolution.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a biologist&#039;s definition of the evolutionary process&lt;/a&gt;:

&quot;Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.&quot;

The pity description is &quot;[a process of] differential reproduction&quot;. Both of these are more directly informative of the biology entities and the biological process which is under consideration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ouch, I need to clarify that too. In the new model, or even before that if I understand biologists correctly, I believe now non-argued diverse ancestry of viruses makes viruses an ecological niche, &#8220;a way to &#8216;live&#8217;&#8221;, rather than a monophyletic domain with its own common root as the other 3 (Bacteria, Archaea, Eukaryotes).</p>
<p>@ Steve Flinn:</p>
<p>Yes, but that the genome is decreasing its mutational Kolmogorov complexity by environmental selection by way of channeling Shannon information is known. Nothing that is described by considering the informational properties of the genome learning process is added to <a href="http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/01/what-is-evolution.html" rel="nofollow">a biologist&#8217;s definition of the evolutionary process</a>:</p>
<p>&#8220;Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.&#8221;</p>
<p>The pity description is &#8220;[a process of] differential reproduction&#8221;. Both of these are more directly informative of the biology entities and the biological process which is under consideration.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/01/13/do-i-not-live/comment-page-1/#comment-219660</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 18:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7921#comment-219660</guid>
		<description>To be more clear, I meant to note that what biologists use as &quot;far from equilibrium&quot; is still thermodynamically sufficiently linear in some cases to not count as TD &quot;far from equilibrium&quot;.

@ George:

Anyone can define out viruses. But mind that it now seems, with more sequencing, that many (but not all) viruses were once cellular life forms. 

For example, eukaryotes such as amoeba, or even humans in some cases of lung inflammation, is beset by Megavirus. This newly proposed clade includes such large viruses as Mimiviruses, and have an argued signature of eukaryote ancestry. 

Similarly mass sequencing has discovered virus genomes with archaean relations, and same goes for bacteria I think.

The proposed ancestry is that an early eukaryote, perhaps still un-nucleated, went parasitic, simplified and its only descendants survived as a virus. A related proposal is based on noting that they grow a &quot;virus factory&quot; inside a host cell that is as complex as some bacteria, that look for all practical purposes like a cell and uses some proprietary metabolic genes. Hence the viral factory is the mature individual and the virions (viral particles) the eggs.

Now the question for a definition of viruses as non-life is when exactly did the megaviruses loose their &quot;life&quot; property? They are rooted in life, they still look and act like cells. The only difference if the above proposals are accepted is that parasite simplification has made them loose, not the mouth and guts like a tape worm, but the egg metabolism.

If tape worms are bilaterians (which all have an ancestral digestive system), why can&#039;t such viruses be life? (They probably have to be, if you ask an eager cladist.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be more clear, I meant to note that what biologists use as &#8220;far from equilibrium&#8221; is still thermodynamically sufficiently linear in some cases to not count as TD &#8220;far from equilibrium&#8221;.</p>
<p>@ George:</p>
<p>Anyone can define out viruses. But mind that it now seems, with more sequencing, that many (but not all) viruses were once cellular life forms. </p>
<p>For example, eukaryotes such as amoeba, or even humans in some cases of lung inflammation, is beset by Megavirus. This newly proposed clade includes such large viruses as Mimiviruses, and have an argued signature of eukaryote ancestry. </p>
<p>Similarly mass sequencing has discovered virus genomes with archaean relations, and same goes for bacteria I think.</p>
<p>The proposed ancestry is that an early eukaryote, perhaps still un-nucleated, went parasitic, simplified and its only descendants survived as a virus. A related proposal is based on noting that they grow a &#8220;virus factory&#8221; inside a host cell that is as complex as some bacteria, that look for all practical purposes like a cell and uses some proprietary metabolic genes. Hence the viral factory is the mature individual and the virions (viral particles) the eggs.</p>
<p>Now the question for a definition of viruses as non-life is when exactly did the megaviruses loose their &#8220;life&#8221; property? They are rooted in life, they still look and act like cells. The only difference if the above proposals are accepted is that parasite simplification has made them loose, not the mouth and guts like a tape worm, but the egg metabolism.</p>
<p>If tape worms are bilaterians (which all have an ancestral digestive system), why can&#8217;t such viruses be life? (They probably have to be, if you ask an eager cladist.)</p>
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