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	<title>Comments on: Quote of the Day</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/04/14/quote-of-the-day-3/</link>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/04/14/quote-of-the-day-3/#comment-75603</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2012 11:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8174#comment-75603</guid>
		<description>Is accepting quantum theory literally any harder than accepting relativity literally?  Both theories explain existence  on scales far removed from our sense-abilities here in our Newtonion middle.  We can no more feel the effects of time dilatation (if that&#039;s the correct term. I&#039;m not a scientist) when walking down the street than we can any quantum level phenomena.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is accepting quantum theory literally any harder than accepting relativity literally?  Both theories explain existence  on scales far removed from our sense-abilities here in our Newtonion middle.  We can no more feel the effects of time dilatation (if that&#8217;s the correct term. I&#8217;m not a scientist) when walking down the street than we can any quantum level phenomena.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/04/14/quote-of-the-day-3/#comment-75602</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2012 05:57:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8174#comment-75602</guid>
		<description>@22, you are taking an analogy made for a popular level exposition much farther than you should (either that or Deutsch is misleading his readers). It seems to me that to be talking about photons interfering with other photons  in the manner you imply one has to have already accepted the many-worlds interpretation and be viewing things from that perspective.

And talk about things for which there is no experimental evidence... many worlds is at the top of that list!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@22, you are taking an analogy made for a popular level exposition much farther than you should (either that or Deutsch is misleading his readers). It seems to me that to be talking about photons interfering with other photons  in the manner you imply one has to have already accepted the many-worlds interpretation and be viewing things from that perspective.</p>
<p>And talk about things for which there is no experimental evidence&#8230; many worlds is at the top of that list!</p>
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		<title>By: Third Planet</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/04/14/quote-of-the-day-3/#comment-75601</link>
		<dc:creator>Third Planet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 19:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8174#comment-75601</guid>
		<description>@literal truth
I come from an aerospace engineering(BSME) background so I am partial to explanations  consistent with experiments. When multiple slit experiments are conducted(see ch 2 of Deutsch&#039;s Fabric of Reality) it appears(with only 1 caveat) that photons are being interfered with by other photons. While we can&#039;t detect the other photons(that&#039;s the caveat), they appear to behave just like the one we can. We can accept this as being literally true or we can devise mathematically consistent abstractions like &quot;wave collapse&quot; for which there appears to be no experimental evidence to account for what constitutes an observer, or when and how collapse occur.  If you&#039;re an engineer tasked with explaining why the vehicle works(or not) it really is that simple - a choice between some indirect experimental evidence and well, none.

&quot;literal&quot; does not mean &quot;ultimate&quot; - most would accept that it is literally true that I am sitting on a solid chair typing this message but that says nothing about what consciousness is or how subatomic forces operate on the surfaces of my skin, clothes and chair to give the appearance of solidity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@literal truth<br />
I come from an aerospace engineering(BSME) background so I am partial to explanations  consistent with experiments. When multiple slit experiments are conducted(see ch 2 of Deutsch&#8217;s Fabric of Reality) it appears(with only 1 caveat) that photons are being interfered with by other photons. While we can&#8217;t detect the other photons(that&#8217;s the caveat), they appear to behave just like the one we can. We can accept this as being literally true or we can devise mathematically consistent abstractions like &#8220;wave collapse&#8221; for which there appears to be no experimental evidence to account for what constitutes an observer, or when and how collapse occur.  If you&#8217;re an engineer tasked with explaining why the vehicle works(or not) it really is that simple &#8211; a choice between some indirect experimental evidence and well, none.</p>
<p>&#8220;literal&#8221; does not mean &#8220;ultimate&#8221; &#8211; most would accept that it is literally true that I am sitting on a solid chair typing this message but that says nothing about what consciousness is or how subatomic forces operate on the surfaces of my skin, clothes and chair to give the appearance of solidity.</p>
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		<title>By: Low Math, Meekly Interacting</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/04/14/quote-of-the-day-3/#comment-75600</link>
		<dc:creator>Low Math, Meekly Interacting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:50:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8174#comment-75600</guid>
		<description>Honest-to-the-FSM non-snarky sincere question:  What, if any, value is there to &quot;literal truth&quot; in theoretical/scientific models of nature?  I should think we would want to avoid making positive statements about literal truth like an all-mighty plague.  Literal truth is for religious fundamentalists, not scientists, right?  Right???  How is the lack of literal truth even a relevant critique?  Why wouldn&#039;t the mere mention of of a requirement for literal truth evoke cynicism and/or anger when applied to ANY theory, however successful?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honest-to-the-FSM non-snarky sincere question:  What, if any, value is there to &#8220;literal truth&#8221; in theoretical/scientific models of nature?  I should think we would want to avoid making positive statements about literal truth like an all-mighty plague.  Literal truth is for religious fundamentalists, not scientists, right?  Right???  How is the lack of literal truth even a relevant critique?  Why wouldn&#8217;t the mere mention of of a requirement for literal truth evoke cynicism and/or anger when applied to ANY theory, however successful?</p>
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		<title>By: Jimbo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/04/14/quote-of-the-day-3/#comment-75599</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 05:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8174#comment-75599</guid>
		<description>&quot;This is often the way it is in physics - our mistake is not that we take our theories too seriously, but that we do not take them seriously enough.&quot; - Steven Weinberg.
Indeed, Weinberg is Still seeking a QM that HE can understand, even if most of us mortals cannot understand Weinberg, who just cannot accept the ManyWorlds Interp. of QM as Reality.
I do agree w/Deutsch in the sense I think he&#039;s coming from:
Eternal Inflation, Cosmological Constant, &amp; String Theory Landscape all suggest a Multiverse, &amp; the MWI is its QM manifestation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This is often the way it is in physics &#8211; our mistake is not that we take our theories too seriously, but that we do not take them seriously enough.&#8221; &#8211; Steven Weinberg.<br />
Indeed, Weinberg is Still seeking a QM that HE can understand, even if most of us mortals cannot understand Weinberg, who just cannot accept the ManyWorlds Interp. of QM as Reality.<br />
I do agree w/Deutsch in the sense I think he&#8217;s coming from:<br />
Eternal Inflation, Cosmological Constant, &amp; String Theory Landscape all suggest a Multiverse, &amp; the MWI is its QM manifestation.</p>
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		<title>By: Baby Bones</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/04/14/quote-of-the-day-3/#comment-75598</link>
		<dc:creator>Baby Bones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 02:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8174#comment-75598</guid>
		<description>Personally, I greet QM with incomprehension as a explanation of reality. I don&#039;t think there is a wave function or an infinite-dimensional Hilbert space lurking behind any experiment or version of this world. The formalism of QM is a tool that gets good answers, but it is not an actual set of universal rules. We stumbled upon QM for lack of a better idea. QM is essentially about how to conduct measurements and it rigorously denies that things actually exist for that reason.

I think the set of all probabilities of instances in the universe is finite and discrete. In particular, instances of especially low frequency cannot be proven to have existed (or have a cause) and must be treated as noise. Also, each instance creates a new set of all probabilities, and instances have varying degrees of effect depending on when they occur.  I think that idea is still within the formalism but it would add a cut off  to the numbers of eigenvalues and eigenvectors.

Any measurement humans make now cannot noticeably affect the energy levels of, say, the hydrogen atom, but instances corresponding to hypothetical high-energy measurements made just after the Big Bang by a powerful sentient observer could have changed the energy levels of the hydrogen atom and the subsequent evolution of the universe. This means I am less certain that any Higgs Boson  created at CERN is in fact a real Higgs Boson. Maybe it is a close facsimile from what is essentially a simulation of the conditions of the Big Bang. Conversely, our existence, despite being miniscule now, might nonetheless have an odd effect on the laws of the future universe as it expands.

I think a certain amount of noise is necessary for making a measurement and is not a consequence of making a measurement but reflects an intrinsic aspect of something. This means we can&#039;t know everything about an electron because it doesn&#039;t actually exist in the ways that we can think of it, but we can reasonably be sure that there is something that we cannot change that corresponds very closely to our idea of it. The higher up we go on the energy scale at a certain time scale, the less certain we are of our measurements. I think this is a reasonable way of looking at things, but it isn&#039;t especially enlightening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I greet QM with incomprehension as a explanation of reality. I don&#8217;t think there is a wave function or an infinite-dimensional Hilbert space lurking behind any experiment or version of this world. The formalism of QM is a tool that gets good answers, but it is not an actual set of universal rules. We stumbled upon QM for lack of a better idea. QM is essentially about how to conduct measurements and it rigorously denies that things actually exist for that reason.</p>
<p>I think the set of all probabilities of instances in the universe is finite and discrete. In particular, instances of especially low frequency cannot be proven to have existed (or have a cause) and must be treated as noise. Also, each instance creates a new set of all probabilities, and instances have varying degrees of effect depending on when they occur.  I think that idea is still within the formalism but it would add a cut off  to the numbers of eigenvalues and eigenvectors.</p>
<p>Any measurement humans make now cannot noticeably affect the energy levels of, say, the hydrogen atom, but instances corresponding to hypothetical high-energy measurements made just after the Big Bang by a powerful sentient observer could have changed the energy levels of the hydrogen atom and the subsequent evolution of the universe. This means I am less certain that any Higgs Boson  created at CERN is in fact a real Higgs Boson. Maybe it is a close facsimile from what is essentially a simulation of the conditions of the Big Bang. Conversely, our existence, despite being miniscule now, might nonetheless have an odd effect on the laws of the future universe as it expands.</p>
<p>I think a certain amount of noise is necessary for making a measurement and is not a consequence of making a measurement but reflects an intrinsic aspect of something. This means we can&#8217;t know everything about an electron because it doesn&#8217;t actually exist in the ways that we can think of it, but we can reasonably be sure that there is something that we cannot change that corresponds very closely to our idea of it. The higher up we go on the energy scale at a certain time scale, the less certain we are of our measurements. I think this is a reasonable way of looking at things, but it isn&#8217;t especially enlightening.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/04/14/quote-of-the-day-3/#comment-75597</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8174#comment-75597</guid>
		<description>#7:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
there are multiple different interpretations of quantum mechanics
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Is that a fruitful description? It doesn&#039;t appear fruitful elsewhere, where people try to eke out predictions to test.

Say, if decoherence is an actual process, wouldn&#039;t it kill some &quot;interpretations&quot; that, at least in the armchair interpretation, has claimed &quot;instantaneous collapse&quot;? I believe I have read here that instead, for whatever reason, the decoherence process obeys relativity.

And elsewhere experiments on photons in cavities where decoherence is a gradual process that one can back out of as long as it is partial.

Likewise, people have claimed, for whatever reason, the wavefunction can be observed (is real) and is not a calculating device. If so, surely that would reject #11 &quot;shut up and calculate&quot;?

I don&#039;t see why these are not (tried to be) put as theories as elsewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#7:</p>
<blockquote><p>
there are multiple different interpretations of quantum mechanics
</p></blockquote>
<p>Is that a fruitful description? It doesn&#8217;t appear fruitful elsewhere, where people try to eke out predictions to test.</p>
<p>Say, if decoherence is an actual process, wouldn&#8217;t it kill some &#8220;interpretations&#8221; that, at least in the armchair interpretation, has claimed &#8220;instantaneous collapse&#8221;? I believe I have read here that instead, for whatever reason, the decoherence process obeys relativity.</p>
<p>And elsewhere experiments on photons in cavities where decoherence is a gradual process that one can back out of as long as it is partial.</p>
<p>Likewise, people have claimed, for whatever reason, the wavefunction can be observed (is real) and is not a calculating device. If so, surely that would reject #11 &#8220;shut up and calculate&#8221;?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see why these are not (tried to be) put as theories as elsewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: James Gallagher</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/04/14/quote-of-the-day-3/#comment-75596</link>
		<dc:creator>James Gallagher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 17:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8174#comment-75596</guid>
		<description>He just means the universal wave-function evolving according to Schrödinger&#039;s equation is literally true - ie describes everything

But I still don&#039;t think that implies many-worlds &#039;literally&#039; (!), since you can instead explain superpositions by fundamental randomness at the level of individual states - there is no need for the enitire universe to split.

Also, as I have recently shown, if you look at the  (discrete) &#039;flow&#039; of the universal wave-function according to U(t+dt) = e(hL).U(t) - U(t)  - ie  the &#039;change&#039; in the wave-function,  then 3D space falls out trivially as 3 attractive periodic points in C^n.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He just means the universal wave-function evolving according to Schrödinger&#8217;s equation is literally true &#8211; ie describes everything</p>
<p>But I still don&#8217;t think that implies many-worlds &#8216;literally&#8217; (!), since you can instead explain superpositions by fundamental randomness at the level of individual states &#8211; there is no need for the enitire universe to split.</p>
<p>Also, as I have recently shown, if you look at the  (discrete) &#8216;flow&#8217; of the universal wave-function according to U(t+dt) = e(hL).U(t) &#8211; U(t)  &#8211; ie  the &#8216;change&#8217; in the wave-function,  then 3D space falls out trivially as 3 attractive periodic points in C^n.</p>
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		<title>By: Quote of the Day &#124; In the Maldives</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/04/14/quote-of-the-day-3/#comment-75595</link>
		<dc:creator>Quote of the Day &#124; In the Maldives</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 10:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8174#comment-75595</guid>
		<description>[...] Quote of the Day  Posted on April 15, 2012  by  admin     Quote of the Day post: Quote of the Day Comments commentsPowered by Facebook [...] Given that this quote is from Deutsch, I can only assume he means many worlds interpretation by “literally true description of nature.” What an utter mischaracterization of other &#8230; Read more on Discover Magazine (blog) [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Quote of the Day  Posted on April 15, 2012  by  admin     Quote of the Day post: Quote of the Day Comments commentsPowered by Facebook [...] Given that this quote is from Deutsch, I can only assume he means many worlds interpretation by “literally true description of nature.” What an utter mischaracterization of other &#8230; Read more on Discover Magazine (blog) [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Roger</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/04/14/quote-of-the-day-3/#comment-75594</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 05:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8174#comment-75594</guid>
		<description>Deutsch is talking about many-worlds. Yes, the idea that many-worlds is literally true is greeted with various objections. With good reason. There is no empirical evidence that many-worlds is any better than any other interpretaion. Where Deutsch goes wrong is to imply that there is empirical evidence for many-worlds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deutsch is talking about many-worlds. Yes, the idea that many-worlds is literally true is greeted with various objections. With good reason. There is no empirical evidence that many-worlds is any better than any other interpretaion. Where Deutsch goes wrong is to imply that there is empirical evidence for many-worlds.</p>
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