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	<title>Comments on: Morality and Basketball</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/24/morality-and-basketball/</link>
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		<title>By: driverguy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/24/morality-and-basketball/#comment-77845</link>
		<dc:creator>driverguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8768#comment-77845</guid>
		<description>Competition and cooperation are both fundamental aspects of basketball.  AND natural human behavior.  A mixture of both is required for the survival of our species.  So why is cooperation considered &quot;moral&quot; by many, and competition is not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Competition and cooperation are both fundamental aspects of basketball.  AND natural human behavior.  A mixture of both is required for the survival of our species.  So why is cooperation considered &#8220;moral&#8221; by many, and competition is not?</p>
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		<title>By: brucem</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/24/morality-and-basketball/#comment-77844</link>
		<dc:creator>brucem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2012 19:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8768#comment-77844</guid>
		<description>I disagree with the basketball rules analogy, and here&#039;s why: context matters with morality.  It does not matter with basketball rules.  My perfect example:  Treason is not only against the law of all countries and has been since the dawn of civilization, but we all consider being a traitor immoral.  However, during WWII would we think poorly of, let alone punish, a German who betrayed Hitler and the Third Reich to spy for the allies?  He is certainly guilty of treason under german law.  Is he immoral?  I think we&#039;d all say not only is he not immoral, he has done something extremely moral.  But it&#039;s still against the law.  Yes it&#039;s a violation of Germany&#039;s treason law, not ours, but we both have the same law regarding being a traitor to your country, providing assistance to the enemy during wartime being the most egregious violation.  So since there&#039;s parity with both laws, why is violating one immoral and the other moral?  Context.  Social context.

If the British won the American Revolution, Benedict Arnold would have been a beloved hero.  Every city would have a &quot;Benedict Arnold Avenue&quot;.

So morality is beyond being merely subjective.  It is totally dependent on the situation, the context, a determination to be made on a case by case basis.  This is why &quot;thou shall not do x&quot; type rules never work out and always lead to injustice and irrationality.  Kids being kicked out of kindergarten for using a butterknife to cut a muffin.  College students being expelled from university for taking an aspirin during class.  Stupidity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with the basketball rules analogy, and here&#8217;s why: context matters with morality.  It does not matter with basketball rules.  My perfect example:  Treason is not only against the law of all countries and has been since the dawn of civilization, but we all consider being a traitor immoral.  However, during WWII would we think poorly of, let alone punish, a German who betrayed Hitler and the Third Reich to spy for the allies?  He is certainly guilty of treason under german law.  Is he immoral?  I think we&#8217;d all say not only is he not immoral, he has done something extremely moral.  But it&#8217;s still against the law.  Yes it&#8217;s a violation of Germany&#8217;s treason law, not ours, but we both have the same law regarding being a traitor to your country, providing assistance to the enemy during wartime being the most egregious violation.  So since there&#8217;s parity with both laws, why is violating one immoral and the other moral?  Context.  Social context.</p>
<p>If the British won the American Revolution, Benedict Arnold would have been a beloved hero.  Every city would have a &#8220;Benedict Arnold Avenue&#8221;.</p>
<p>So morality is beyond being merely subjective.  It is totally dependent on the situation, the context, a determination to be made on a case by case basis.  This is why &#8220;thou shall not do x&#8221; type rules never work out and always lead to injustice and irrationality.  Kids being kicked out of kindergarten for using a butterknife to cut a muffin.  College students being expelled from university for taking an aspirin during class.  Stupidity.</p>
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		<title>By: Moral evolution in today’s society &#124; Secular News Daily</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/24/morality-and-basketball/#comment-77843</link>
		<dc:creator>Moral evolution in today’s society &#124; Secular News Daily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2012 09:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8768#comment-77843</guid>
		<description>[...] Sean Carroll  about subjective and objective morality on their blogs (see Pankration Ethics and Morality and Basketball) and taking the opportunity to clarify my own ideas about physical laws and moral laws. That&#8217;s [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Sean Carroll  about subjective and objective morality on their blogs (see Pankration Ethics and Morality and Basketball) and taking the opportunity to clarify my own ideas about physical laws and moral laws. That&#8217;s [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Moral evolution in today&#8217;s society &#124; Open Parachute</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/24/morality-and-basketball/#comment-77842</link>
		<dc:creator>Moral evolution in today&#8217;s society &#124; Open Parachute</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2012 01:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8768#comment-77842</guid>
		<description>[...] Sean Carroll  about subjective and objective morality on their blogs (see Pankration Ethics and Morality and Basketball) and taking the opportunity to clarify my own ideas about physical laws and moral laws. That&#8217;s [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Sean Carroll  about subjective and objective morality on their blogs (see Pankration Ethics and Morality and Basketball) and taking the opportunity to clarify my own ideas about physical laws and moral laws. That&#8217;s [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Subjective morality – not what it seems? &#124; Secular News Daily</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/24/morality-and-basketball/#comment-77841</link>
		<dc:creator>Subjective morality – not what it seems? &#124; Secular News Daily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 23:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8768#comment-77841</guid>
		<description>[...] the discussion of subjective morality by Zach Weinersmith (see Pankration Ethics) and Sean Carroll (Morality and Basketball). Weiner thinks subjective moral &#8220;rules are conceived of and agreed upon by humans, but have [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the discussion of subjective morality by Zach Weinersmith (see Pankration Ethics) and Sean Carroll (Morality and Basketball). Weiner thinks subjective moral &#8220;rules are conceived of and agreed upon by humans, but have [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Subjective morality &#8211; not what it seems? &#124; Open Parachute</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/24/morality-and-basketball/#comment-77840</link>
		<dc:creator>Subjective morality &#8211; not what it seems? &#124; Open Parachute</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 01:23:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8768#comment-77840</guid>
		<description>[...] the discussion of subjective morality by Zach Weinersmith (see Pankration Ethics) and Sean Carroll (Morality and Basketball). Weiner thinks subjective moral &#8220;rules are conceived of and agreed upon by humans, but have [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the discussion of subjective morality by Zach Weinersmith (see Pankration Ethics) and Sean Carroll (Morality and Basketball). Weiner thinks subjective moral &#8220;rules are conceived of and agreed upon by humans, but have [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Objective or subjective laws and lawgivers &#124; Secular News Daily</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/24/morality-and-basketball/#comment-77839</link>
		<dc:creator>Objective or subjective laws and lawgivers &#124; Secular News Daily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 15:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8768#comment-77839</guid>
		<description>[...] Sean Carroll recently blogged about subjective and objective morality (see Pankration Ethics and Morality and Basketball). Their ideas are interesting but I found their comparison of physical laws and moral laws with the [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Sean Carroll recently blogged about subjective and objective morality (see Pankration Ethics and Morality and Basketball). Their ideas are interesting but I found their comparison of physical laws and moral laws with the [...] </p>
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		<title>By: BobC</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/24/morality-and-basketball/#comment-77838</link>
		<dc:creator>BobC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 05:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8768#comment-77838</guid>
		<description>Morality is not a single-context noun.  For this context, let&#039;s restrict ourselves to the morality an individual expresses or embodies as a member of society, viz. &quot;Social Morality&quot;.  What are the &quot;best&quot; ways for an individual to act within a society, and for society to act toward the individual?  What should be done when an individual or society acts counter to these &quot;best&quot; ways?

In the midst of my engineering education I stumbled into a year-long elective in the Philosophy department with the deceptively simple title of &quot;Man and Society&quot;.  It followed the various paths trod by philosophers over the millenia while pondering what is and what should be the relationship(s) between Man and Society.  We started with Socrates and Aristophanes (his nemesis), then Plato and Aristotle, visited Englishmen Milton and Hobbes, Frenchmen Rousseau and Descartes, also Marx and Freud (social philosophers both), and several religious philosophers before moving on toward contemporary philosophers.  We also tip-toed along the borders between social philosophy and economics.  And every step along the way we learned more about how to critique a philosophical stance.

Society&#039;s behavoir toward the individual is often referred to (and summarized by) the term &quot;justice&quot;.  Rawls&#039; amazing tome &quot;A Theory of Justice&quot; stopped me dead in my tracks, and made me think harder than did any of my other classes.

The individual&#039;s relationship to other individuals and society as a whole can be called &quot;ethics&quot;.  I much prefer the concepts of personal &quot;ethics&quot; and societal &quot;justice&quot; over the relatively vague/overused/misapplied terms of &quot;morality&quot; and &quot;law&quot; or &quot;rules&quot;.

We can reason deeply about social morality through the lenses of ethics and justice.  How do various social (small group) and societal (large group) structures facilitate or hinder key aspects of ethics and justice?  What is the &quot;proper&quot; tradeoff or balance?  Why?

What is the difference between a &quot;right&quot; and a &quot;privilege&quot;?  (Hint: It&#039;s a trick question.)  How can it be shown that the &quot;War on Drugs&quot; is immoral? (NOT a trick question.)  Why is murder worse than manslaughter, but reckless driving is not worse than a DUI?

Which of a society&#039;s &quot;laws&quot; or &quot;rules&quot; may be considered to be more &quot;fundamental&quot; than others?  Which can be shown to be arbitrary, despite intuition or feelings to the contrary?  When is &quot;common knowledge&quot; in this context &quot;not even wrong&quot;?

What are the equivalent concepts for basketball?  What is the game&#039;s relationship to the individual and team, and the individual&#039;s relationship to the team, game, and sport?  What is the root metaphor here?  What do the &quot;rules&quot; represent?

For Pankration, the &quot;rules&quot; are emergent successful strategies (based on the results of prior attempted behaviors), arguably ones that make the game as short as possible by establishing advantage as quickly as possible.  In basketball, the &quot;rules&quot; are limitations on arbitrary behavior.  It&#039;s like comparing evolution to classical physics: In what context does this make sense?

The subject of the blog post may well be paraphrased as &quot;the origin and dispensation of rules&quot;.  But the sports metaphor was broken before it really got started.

The thing is, unlike a game, social and moral rules often lack solid mappings, or clear derivations, or even well-defined interactions.  We do have some generally agreed-to extremes of &quot;good&quot; and &quot;bad&quot; rules and behavior, but we have to work hard to make sense of the in-between.  What I find amazing is that it is at all possible to do so, and to do so with a surprising degree of confidence and power.  Social philosophers rock!

I recommend reading Rawls in the comfort of Plato&#039;s Cave.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Morality is not a single-context noun.  For this context, let&#8217;s restrict ourselves to the morality an individual expresses or embodies as a member of society, viz. &#8220;Social Morality&#8221;.  What are the &#8220;best&#8221; ways for an individual to act within a society, and for society to act toward the individual?  What should be done when an individual or society acts counter to these &#8220;best&#8221; ways?</p>
<p>In the midst of my engineering education I stumbled into a year-long elective in the Philosophy department with the deceptively simple title of &#8220;Man and Society&#8221;.  It followed the various paths trod by philosophers over the millenia while pondering what is and what should be the relationship(s) between Man and Society.  We started with Socrates and Aristophanes (his nemesis), then Plato and Aristotle, visited Englishmen Milton and Hobbes, Frenchmen Rousseau and Descartes, also Marx and Freud (social philosophers both), and several religious philosophers before moving on toward contemporary philosophers.  We also tip-toed along the borders between social philosophy and economics.  And every step along the way we learned more about how to critique a philosophical stance.</p>
<p>Society&#8217;s behavoir toward the individual is often referred to (and summarized by) the term &#8220;justice&#8221;.  Rawls&#8217; amazing tome &#8220;A Theory of Justice&#8221; stopped me dead in my tracks, and made me think harder than did any of my other classes.</p>
<p>The individual&#8217;s relationship to other individuals and society as a whole can be called &#8220;ethics&#8221;.  I much prefer the concepts of personal &#8220;ethics&#8221; and societal &#8220;justice&#8221; over the relatively vague/overused/misapplied terms of &#8220;morality&#8221; and &#8220;law&#8221; or &#8220;rules&#8221;.</p>
<p>We can reason deeply about social morality through the lenses of ethics and justice.  How do various social (small group) and societal (large group) structures facilitate or hinder key aspects of ethics and justice?  What is the &#8220;proper&#8221; tradeoff or balance?  Why?</p>
<p>What is the difference between a &#8220;right&#8221; and a &#8220;privilege&#8221;?  (Hint: It&#8217;s a trick question.)  How can it be shown that the &#8220;War on Drugs&#8221; is immoral? (NOT a trick question.)  Why is murder worse than manslaughter, but reckless driving is not worse than a DUI?</p>
<p>Which of a society&#8217;s &#8220;laws&#8221; or &#8220;rules&#8221; may be considered to be more &#8220;fundamental&#8221; than others?  Which can be shown to be arbitrary, despite intuition or feelings to the contrary?  When is &#8220;common knowledge&#8221; in this context &#8220;not even wrong&#8221;?</p>
<p>What are the equivalent concepts for basketball?  What is the game&#8217;s relationship to the individual and team, and the individual&#8217;s relationship to the team, game, and sport?  What is the root metaphor here?  What do the &#8220;rules&#8221; represent?</p>
<p>For Pankration, the &#8220;rules&#8221; are emergent successful strategies (based on the results of prior attempted behaviors), arguably ones that make the game as short as possible by establishing advantage as quickly as possible.  In basketball, the &#8220;rules&#8221; are limitations on arbitrary behavior.  It&#8217;s like comparing evolution to classical physics: In what context does this make sense?</p>
<p>The subject of the blog post may well be paraphrased as &#8220;the origin and dispensation of rules&#8221;.  But the sports metaphor was broken before it really got started.</p>
<p>The thing is, unlike a game, social and moral rules often lack solid mappings, or clear derivations, or even well-defined interactions.  We do have some generally agreed-to extremes of &#8220;good&#8221; and &#8220;bad&#8221; rules and behavior, but we have to work hard to make sense of the in-between.  What I find amazing is that it is at all possible to do so, and to do so with a surprising degree of confidence and power.  Social philosophers rock!</p>
<p>I recommend reading Rawls in the comfort of Plato&#8217;s Cave.</p>
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		<title>By: Objective or subjective laws and lawgivers &#124; Open Parachute</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/24/morality-and-basketball/#comment-77837</link>
		<dc:creator>Objective or subjective laws and lawgivers &#124; Open Parachute</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 01:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8768#comment-77837</guid>
		<description>[...] Sean Carroll recently blogged about subjective and objective morality (see Pankration Ethics and Morality and Basketball). Their ideas are interesting but I found their comparison of physical laws and moral laws with the [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Sean Carroll recently blogged about subjective and objective morality (see Pankration Ethics and Morality and Basketball). Their ideas are interesting but I found their comparison of physical laws and moral laws with the [...] </p>
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		<title>By: JimV</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/24/morality-and-basketball/#comment-77836</link>
		<dc:creator>JimV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8768#comment-77836</guid>
		<description>Another nice post, thanks.  I have nothing profound to add, except to all of you who think Michael Jordan was the greatest NBA player of all time, you are wrong.  Bill Russell was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another nice post, thanks.  I have nothing profound to add, except to all of you who think Michael Jordan was the greatest NBA player of all time, you are wrong.  Bill Russell was.</p>
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