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	<title>Comments on: Guest Post: Doug Finkbeiner on Fermi Bubbles and Microwave Haze</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/04/guest-post-doug-finkbeiner-on-fermi-bubbles-and-microwave-haze/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/04/guest-post-doug-finkbeiner-on-fermi-bubbles-and-microwave-haze/</link>
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		<title>By: Douglas Finkbeiner</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/04/guest-post-doug-finkbeiner-on-fermi-bubbles-and-microwave-haze/#comment-77954</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Finkbeiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 13:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8791#comment-77954</guid>
		<description>As Marshall Eubanks says, the stress in the dust grains is large, but not enough to rip them apart.  It is only the smallest end of the size distribution (~ 1 nm size) that rotate this fast.  Another way to think about the rotation speed is to take 120 giga radians / sec and multiply by a 1 nm radius, yielding a surface speed of 120 m/s.  That is fast for Earthlings, but slow compared to the speed dust grains move around in a dust cloud.  So the rotation speed is actually *sub-thermal*.   Instead of asking why they rotate so fast, you might wonder why they rotate so slowly?  One reason (generally the most important reason) is the electric dipole radiation they emit, which we receive as ~ 20 GHz microwaves.  They lose energy by emitting microwaves and slow down.  If they bump into something, on average they speed up again!

I was amazed when Draine and Lazarian said this in 1998, because that speed seemed unimaginable.  But a great thing about science is we can make models with observable predictions, compare with observations, and reject an idea or not based on statistics rather than gut feelings.  So far, the spinning dust model looks good!

By the way, others (e.g. Hirata, Ali-Hamoud, Dickinson, Ysard, Verstraete, Hoang, ...) have verified and extended the Draine &amp; Lazarian calculation over the years.  A few minor errors were found in the original calculation, but they change the answer little.  At this point, microwave emission from spinning dust is well established and widely accepted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Marshall Eubanks says, the stress in the dust grains is large, but not enough to rip them apart.  It is only the smallest end of the size distribution (~ 1 nm size) that rotate this fast.  Another way to think about the rotation speed is to take 120 giga radians / sec and multiply by a 1 nm radius, yielding a surface speed of 120 m/s.  That is fast for Earthlings, but slow compared to the speed dust grains move around in a dust cloud.  So the rotation speed is actually *sub-thermal*.   Instead of asking why they rotate so fast, you might wonder why they rotate so slowly?  One reason (generally the most important reason) is the electric dipole radiation they emit, which we receive as ~ 20 GHz microwaves.  They lose energy by emitting microwaves and slow down.  If they bump into something, on average they speed up again!</p>
<p>I was amazed when Draine and Lazarian said this in 1998, because that speed seemed unimaginable.  But a great thing about science is we can make models with observable predictions, compare with observations, and reject an idea or not based on statistics rather than gut feelings.  So far, the spinning dust model looks good!</p>
<p>By the way, others (e.g. Hirata, Ali-Hamoud, Dickinson, Ysard, Verstraete, Hoang, &#8230;) have verified and extended the Draine &amp; Lazarian calculation over the years.  A few minor errors were found in the original calculation, but they change the answer little.  At this point, microwave emission from spinning dust is well established and widely accepted.</p>
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		<title>By: Por qué el satélite Planck no ha hallado la &#8220;primera prueba&#8221; de la materia oscura, como titula ABC &#171; Francis (th)E mule Science&#039;s News</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/04/guest-post-doug-finkbeiner-on-fermi-bubbles-and-microwave-haze/#comment-77953</link>
		<dc:creator>Por qué el satélite Planck no ha hallado la &#8220;primera prueba&#8221; de la materia oscura, como titula ABC &#171; Francis (th)E mule Science&#039;s News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2012 10:47:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8791#comment-77953</guid>
		<description>[...] oscura podría explicar las burbujas observadas por WMAP. Él mismo nos la cuenta en &#8221;Guest Post: Doug Finkbeiner on Fermi Bubbles and Microwave Haze,&#8221; en el blog de Sean Carroll, Cosmic Variance, September 4th, 2012. Tu voto:Comparte [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] oscura podría explicar las burbujas observadas por WMAP. Él mismo nos la cuenta en &#8221;Guest Post: Doug Finkbeiner on Fermi Bubbles and Microwave Haze,&#8221; en el blog de Sean Carroll, Cosmic Variance, September 4th, 2012. Tu voto:Comparte [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Marshall Eubanks</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/04/guest-post-doug-finkbeiner-on-fermi-bubbles-and-microwave-haze/#comment-77952</link>
		<dc:creator>Marshall Eubanks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2012 05:55:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8791#comment-77952</guid>
		<description>Well, 20 GHz is 120 giga radians / sec. Suppose the dust is 1 nano meter across and is something like rock in composition, thus weighing something like 10^-23 kg.  The acceleration at the surface of the dust is then (rounding ruthlessly)  10^-9 x (10^11)^2 or  10^13 m/sec^2, or 1 trillion g&#039;s, which does sound like a lot. The stress however is what counts and that  is ~ 10^-23 x 10^13 / 10^-18 or 10^8 Pascals. The tensile failure strength of rock is about 2 x 10^8 Pascals, so this seems physically plausible to me. (I would anticipate that these tiny grains, only a few dozen atoms across, might have strengths closer to molecular and thus might be even stronger than a macroscopic rock, but it seems plausible even without that.)

I got the grain size from http://arxiv.org/pdf/1105.2302v3.pdf . It&#039;s interesting they talk about 40 GHz rotation rates, which puts the above BOTE stress estimate right  at but not beyond the tensile strength of rock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, 20 GHz is 120 giga radians / sec. Suppose the dust is 1 nano meter across and is something like rock in composition, thus weighing something like 10^-23 kg.  The acceleration at the surface of the dust is then (rounding ruthlessly)  10^-9 x (10^11)^2 or  10^13 m/sec^2, or 1 trillion g&#8217;s, which does sound like a lot. The stress however is what counts and that  is ~ 10^-23 x 10^13 / 10^-18 or 10^8 Pascals. The tensile failure strength of rock is about 2 x 10^8 Pascals, so this seems physically plausible to me. (I would anticipate that these tiny grains, only a few dozen atoms across, might have strengths closer to molecular and thus might be even stronger than a macroscopic rock, but it seems plausible even without that.)</p>
<p>I got the grain size from <a href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/1105.2302v3.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://arxiv.org/pdf/1105.2302v3.pdf</a> . It&#8217;s interesting they talk about 40 GHz rotation rates, which puts the above BOTE stress estimate right  at but not beyond the tensile strength of rock.</p>
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		<title>By: Christian Takacs</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/04/guest-post-doug-finkbeiner-on-fermi-bubbles-and-microwave-haze/#comment-77951</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Takacs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2012 20:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8791#comment-77951</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not even going to touch what I think about &quot;Fermi Bubbles&quot;, but one thing I am going to question is the statement &quot;Bruce Draine and Alex Lazarian worked through this problem at Princeton in the late 1990s and found that the smallest dust grains can rotate about 20 billion times a second.&quot;  Is this really correct? I&#039;m dubious.  Hard drives, engine turbines, etc are measured in RPM, rotations per minute.  TWENTY BILLION rotations per SECOND is a speed I&#039;d be curious to see how it can even be measured...much less obtained.  Dust is quite large compared to an atom of something, mechanically how is it possible rotate a phsyical object like dust twenty billion times a second, have it stay together, then measure it? I would also ask the obvious question; What happens when a tiny phsyical object rotating 20 billion times a second bumps into another anything (gas molecule, another dust particle, etc) would not more than a little bit of energy be released that was easy to detect?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not even going to touch what I think about &#8220;Fermi Bubbles&#8221;, but one thing I am going to question is the statement &#8220;Bruce Draine and Alex Lazarian worked through this problem at Princeton in the late 1990s and found that the smallest dust grains can rotate about 20 billion times a second.&#8221;  Is this really correct? I&#8217;m dubious.  Hard drives, engine turbines, etc are measured in RPM, rotations per minute.  TWENTY BILLION rotations per SECOND is a speed I&#8217;d be curious to see how it can even be measured&#8230;much less obtained.  Dust is quite large compared to an atom of something, mechanically how is it possible rotate a phsyical object like dust twenty billion times a second, have it stay together, then measure it? I would also ask the obvious question; What happens when a tiny phsyical object rotating 20 billion times a second bumps into another anything (gas molecule, another dust particle, etc) would not more than a little bit of energy be released that was easy to detect?</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Finkbeiner</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/04/guest-post-doug-finkbeiner-on-fermi-bubbles-and-microwave-haze/#comment-77950</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Finkbeiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2012 19:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8791#comment-77950</guid>
		<description>Thanks to everyone for the comments and suggestions!

Alex:  The phone call with Amber prompted me to look into this, but then I spent months working alone on the problem.  I am grateful for the suggestion, and acknowledged her in the paper in addition to several other people who had helpful suggestions along the way.

Marshall Eubanks:  Yes, &quot;was superseded&quot; is a nice way to say &quot;rejected.&quot;   The estimate of the total power requires extrapolating the spectrum far beyond where it is observed, and is therefore quite uncertain.  We stuck to an empirical statement about the surface brightness in Hooper et al. (2007).

Yudong:  I agree!  See the &quot;Fermi jet&quot; paper by Meng Su and myself.  http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.5852

Baby Bones:  I don&#039;t have a good answer.  The Sun does indeed have a charge (electrons get away more easily, so the net charge is slightly positive) as do galaxies and galaxy clusters.   Someone has calculated these charges and they are too small to have observable consequences for dynamics.  But it is a good idea!

martenvandijk:  We actually hope that x-ray data from eRosita can teach us more about the thermal part of the spectrum.  The cosmic ray part is non-thermal (no well defined temperature).

Bob and Bobby:  I like the other quotes.  Francis Bacon would have been especially appropriate, but it was Burr&#039;s quote I saw so many times on the wall.

Thanks, everyone!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to everyone for the comments and suggestions!</p>
<p>Alex:  The phone call with Amber prompted me to look into this, but then I spent months working alone on the problem.  I am grateful for the suggestion, and acknowledged her in the paper in addition to several other people who had helpful suggestions along the way.</p>
<p>Marshall Eubanks:  Yes, &#8220;was superseded&#8221; is a nice way to say &#8220;rejected.&#8221;   The estimate of the total power requires extrapolating the spectrum far beyond where it is observed, and is therefore quite uncertain.  We stuck to an empirical statement about the surface brightness in Hooper et al. (2007).</p>
<p>Yudong:  I agree!  See the &#8220;Fermi jet&#8221; paper by Meng Su and myself.  <a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.5852" rel="nofollow">http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.5852</a></p>
<p>Baby Bones:  I don&#8217;t have a good answer.  The Sun does indeed have a charge (electrons get away more easily, so the net charge is slightly positive) as do galaxies and galaxy clusters.   Someone has calculated these charges and they are too small to have observable consequences for dynamics.  But it is a good idea!</p>
<p>martenvandijk:  We actually hope that x-ray data from eRosita can teach us more about the thermal part of the spectrum.  The cosmic ray part is non-thermal (no well defined temperature).</p>
<p>Bob and Bobby:  I like the other quotes.  Francis Bacon would have been especially appropriate, but it was Burr&#8217;s quote I saw so many times on the wall.</p>
<p>Thanks, everyone!</p>
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		<title>By: bob</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/04/guest-post-doug-finkbeiner-on-fermi-bubbles-and-microwave-haze/#comment-77949</link>
		<dc:creator>bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8791#comment-77949</guid>
		<description>More apt than the Burr quotation - and considerably earlier:
&quot;Truth will sooner come out from error than from confusion&quot; - Francis Bacon, &lt;i&gt;Novum Organum&lt;/i&gt;, Book One (1620).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More apt than the Burr quotation &#8211; and considerably earlier:<br />
&#8220;Truth will sooner come out from error than from confusion&#8221; &#8211; Francis Bacon, <i>Novum Organum</i>, Book One (1620).</p>
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		<title>By: Baby Bones</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/04/guest-post-doug-finkbeiner-on-fermi-bubbles-and-microwave-haze/#comment-77948</link>
		<dc:creator>Baby Bones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2012 03:52:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8791#comment-77948</guid>
		<description>Thanks Dr. Finkbeiner. I really like Fermi Bubbles.

You of all people could set me straight on a certain issue. It is this: I have confidence that general relativity works, and is a macroscopic theory, but I see no reason why not a cosmological constant term for an accelerating expansion of the universe must have a mysterious source. Couldn&#039;t such a term simply be an effective contribution from other forces that aren&#039;t reasonably represented as space time curvatures?  Why not suppose that  inverse Compton scattering of electrons leads to a positive charge accumulating on galaxies and a corresponding but much more diffuse negative charge accumulating in intergalactic space, some of which appears as Fermi Bubbles around every galaxy. In so doing, the positively charged galaxies would be like screened positive charges of condensed matter physics and be pushed away from each other. The source of &quot;dark&quot; energy could then be traced back to the nuclear fusion of stars. After all, the acceleration we see today didn&#039;t seem to appear until after the dark era, and it seems to coincide with stellar formation (or as best as I can tell from looking at  illustrations of universal expansion).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Dr. Finkbeiner. I really like Fermi Bubbles.</p>
<p>You of all people could set me straight on a certain issue. It is this: I have confidence that general relativity works, and is a macroscopic theory, but I see no reason why not a cosmological constant term for an accelerating expansion of the universe must have a mysterious source. Couldn&#8217;t such a term simply be an effective contribution from other forces that aren&#8217;t reasonably represented as space time curvatures?  Why not suppose that  inverse Compton scattering of electrons leads to a positive charge accumulating on galaxies and a corresponding but much more diffuse negative charge accumulating in intergalactic space, some of which appears as Fermi Bubbles around every galaxy. In so doing, the positively charged galaxies would be like screened positive charges of condensed matter physics and be pushed away from each other. The source of &#8220;dark&#8221; energy could then be traced back to the nuclear fusion of stars. After all, the acceleration we see today didn&#8217;t seem to appear until after the dark era, and it seems to coincide with stellar formation (or as best as I can tell from looking at  illustrations of universal expansion).</p>
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		<title>By: Bobby Chatwin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/04/guest-post-doug-finkbeiner-on-fermi-bubbles-and-microwave-haze/#comment-77947</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobby Chatwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2012 01:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8791#comment-77947</guid>
		<description>Super post, Dr Finkbeiner. Congratulations on the outcome. Here&#039;s another quote (from the Stones) that really seems to fit too:
&quot;You can&#039;t always get what you want
But if you try sometimes well you just might find
You get what you need&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Super post, Dr Finkbeiner. Congratulations on the outcome. Here&#8217;s another quote (from the Stones) that really seems to fit too:<br />
&#8220;You can&#8217;t always get what you want<br />
But if you try sometimes well you just might find<br />
You get what you need&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Apie Fermi burbulus rašo jų atradėjas &#124; Konstanta-42</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/04/guest-post-doug-finkbeiner-on-fermi-bubbles-and-microwave-haze/#comment-77946</link>
		<dc:creator>Apie Fermi burbulus rašo jų atradėjas &#124; Konstanta-42</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2012 22:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8791#comment-77946</guid>
		<description>[...] variacijoje&quot; publikuojamas vieno tokio Doug&#039;o Finkbeiner&#039;io rašinys apie mikrobangų foną mūsų Galaktikoje, Fermi burbulus ir keletą susijusių dalykų. [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] variacijoje&quot; publikuojamas vieno tokio Doug&#039;o Finkbeiner&#039;io rašinys apie mikrobangų foną mūsų Galaktikoje, Fermi burbulus ir keletą susijusių dalykų. [...] </p>
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		<title>By: martenvandijk</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/04/guest-post-doug-finkbeiner-on-fermi-bubbles-and-microwave-haze/#comment-77945</link>
		<dc:creator>martenvandijk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2012 12:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8791#comment-77945</guid>
		<description>Any data on temperature(s)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any data on temperature(s)?</p>
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