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	<title>Comments on: New Life for Gravitational Waves in Space?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/11/new-life-for-gravitational-waves-in-space/</link>
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		<title>By: Philh</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/11/new-life-for-gravitational-waves-in-space/#comment-77982</link>
		<dc:creator>Philh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 10:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8811#comment-77982</guid>
		<description>I spoke to someone who has some connection to the bidding  process for L1. From my conversation I&#039;ll bet that LISA is just a bit too risky at the momnet for ESA. Thats why they have LISA pathfinder and I doubt LISa will get selected at the next call until LISA pathfinder has flown and is proven. My money would be on the next gen X ray telescope unless LISA pathfinder is flown and shown to work. Hence I think an earlier date for selection for the next big ESa mission could be bad news for LISA or NGO or whatever it&#039;ll be called.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I spoke to someone who has some connection to the bidding  process for L1. From my conversation I&#8217;ll bet that LISA is just a bit too risky at the momnet for ESA. Thats why they have LISA pathfinder and I doubt LISa will get selected at the next call until LISA pathfinder has flown and is proven. My money would be on the next gen X ray telescope unless LISA pathfinder is flown and shown to work. Hence I think an earlier date for selection for the next big ESa mission could be bad news for LISA or NGO or whatever it&#8217;ll be called.</p>
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		<title>By: Phillip Helbig</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/11/new-life-for-gravitational-waves-in-space/#comment-77981</link>
		<dc:creator>Phillip Helbig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 09:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8811#comment-77981</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;&quot;The Europeans are under quite a bit of budget pressure too, it seems to me. Unless they have the resources to bail out their weaker members and continue with more or less normal research activity levels?&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

&lt;I&gt;&quot;I recently had a chance to ask one of the leaders of the European side about the likelihood of Europe’s budgetary woes impacting their plans. He didn’t seem too concerned, which surprised me.&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

Phil Plait has pointed out on a few occasions how small even Nasa&#039;s budget is compared to other costs.  Remember, the US military spends a couple of million dollars---per minute.  Even those European countries which spend more than 1% (which is a lot) of the GNP on pure science still spend little when compared to other costs.  So, what should if matter if the other, bigger costs increase somewhat?

Say you normally go out to eat once a week.  Say your car dies and you unexpectedly have to buy a new one.  This is a large, unplanned cost.  Would you skip going out to eat that week, or indeed every week until the new car is paid off?  Probably not.  (If your new car is so expensive that you can&#039;t afford to go out to eat once a week, you are doing something wrong.)

&lt;I&gt;&quot; I cannot claim to understand how the European agencies develop their funding plans, but the claim which this guy made to me is that their process is slower and steadier than the way we do things in the US. I hope this proves correct …&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

There is probably something to this.  The &lt;I&gt;advantage&lt;/I&gt; of several sovereign countries collaborating on a large project is that a country will usually make a commitment only if enough other countries do.  As a result, contracts are drawn up which one can&#039;t simply back out of, like the US Congress did with the SCS.  This is at least part of the reason why CERN, ESO, ESA etc are actually quite good in terms of scientific output for a given amount of money.  The bigger the science, the longer the timescale one has to plan on, much longer than a typical legislature period (i.e. time between elections).


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;The Europeans are under quite a bit of budget pressure too, it seems to me. Unless they have the resources to bail out their weaker members and continue with more or less normal research activity levels?&#8221;</i></p>
<p><i>&#8220;I recently had a chance to ask one of the leaders of the European side about the likelihood of Europe’s budgetary woes impacting their plans. He didn’t seem too concerned, which surprised me.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Phil Plait has pointed out on a few occasions how small even Nasa&#8217;s budget is compared to other costs.  Remember, the US military spends a couple of million dollars&#8212;per minute.  Even those European countries which spend more than 1% (which is a lot) of the GNP on pure science still spend little when compared to other costs.  So, what should if matter if the other, bigger costs increase somewhat?</p>
<p>Say you normally go out to eat once a week.  Say your car dies and you unexpectedly have to buy a new one.  This is a large, unplanned cost.  Would you skip going out to eat that week, or indeed every week until the new car is paid off?  Probably not.  (If your new car is so expensive that you can&#8217;t afford to go out to eat once a week, you are doing something wrong.)</p>
<p><i>&#8221; I cannot claim to understand how the European agencies develop their funding plans, but the claim which this guy made to me is that their process is slower and steadier than the way we do things in the US. I hope this proves correct …&#8221;</i></p>
<p>There is probably something to this.  The <i>advantage</i> of several sovereign countries collaborating on a large project is that a country will usually make a commitment only if enough other countries do.  As a result, contracts are drawn up which one can&#8217;t simply back out of, like the US Congress did with the SCS.  This is at least part of the reason why CERN, ESO, ESA etc are actually quite good in terms of scientific output for a given amount of money.  The bigger the science, the longer the timescale one has to plan on, much longer than a typical legislature period (i.e. time between elections).</p>
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		<title>By: chris</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/11/new-life-for-gravitational-waves-in-space/#comment-77980</link>
		<dc:creator>chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 08:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8811#comment-77980</guid>
		<description>Jupiters icy moons are the #1 interesting unexplored places in the solar system. kilometer-deep water oceans covered by permanent ice for example.

there is other interesting stuff out there than gravitaional waves and other interesting fields of science. besides, ground based gravitational wave detectors are easier that ground based planetary science.

I think it makes much more sense to wait a bit until we know what kind of signal we can expect before embarking on a &quot;large&quot; mission. compare that to the planetology of Jupiters icy moons: we know exactly that there is interesting stuff going on, the field is well developed and it is about time to make a large scale effort to study them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jupiters icy moons are the #1 interesting unexplored places in the solar system. kilometer-deep water oceans covered by permanent ice for example.</p>
<p>there is other interesting stuff out there than gravitaional waves and other interesting fields of science. besides, ground based gravitational wave detectors are easier that ground based planetary science.</p>
<p>I think it makes much more sense to wait a bit until we know what kind of signal we can expect before embarking on a &#8220;large&#8221; mission. compare that to the planetology of Jupiters icy moons: we know exactly that there is interesting stuff going on, the field is well developed and it is about time to make a large scale effort to study them.</p>
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		<title>By: Archie Pelago</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/11/new-life-for-gravitational-waves-in-space/#comment-77979</link>
		<dc:creator>Archie Pelago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 05:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8811#comment-77979</guid>
		<description>&quot;It lost out to JUICE, a mission to Jupiter’s moons with admittedly a much cooler acronym as well as some very good science behind it.&quot;

You are being very diplomatic. A mission to the moons of Jupiter is garbage compared to something that might have given us detailed information on gravitational waves and their sources.

But it will produce more pretty pictures (in false color).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It lost out to JUICE, a mission to Jupiter’s moons with admittedly a much cooler acronym as well as some very good science behind it.&#8221;</p>
<p>You are being very diplomatic. A mission to the moons of Jupiter is garbage compared to something that might have given us detailed information on gravitational waves and their sources.</p>
<p>But it will produce more pretty pictures (in false color).</p>
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		<title>By: ellipsis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/11/new-life-for-gravitational-waves-in-space/#comment-77978</link>
		<dc:creator>ellipsis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 02:54:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8811#comment-77978</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s clear to all that the idea would never go away, even if all the politicians in the world were to blacklist it.  And it&#039;s pretty clear that it will eventually happen.  Just don&#039;t hold your breath.

It will take on strong new life once gravitational waves are observed terrestrially, and even stronger once they are seen in the polarized CMB.  But even then don&#039;t hold your breath.  But it will happen eventually.  2030 - 2035 might be a good estimate for launch and science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s clear to all that the idea would never go away, even if all the politicians in the world were to blacklist it.  And it&#8217;s pretty clear that it will eventually happen.  Just don&#8217;t hold your breath.</p>
<p>It will take on strong new life once gravitational waves are observed terrestrially, and even stronger once they are seen in the polarized CMB.  But even then don&#8217;t hold your breath.  But it will happen eventually.  2030 &#8211; 2035 might be a good estimate for launch and science.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott H.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/11/new-life-for-gravitational-waves-in-space/#comment-77977</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 00:00:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8811#comment-77977</guid>
		<description>I recently had a chance to ask one of the leaders of the European side about the likelihood of Europe&#039;s budgetary woes impacting their plans.  He didn&#039;t seem too concerned, which surprised me.  I cannot claim to understand how the European agencies develop their funding plans, but the claim which this guy made to me is that their process is slower and steadier than the way we do things in the US.  I hope this proves correct ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently had a chance to ask one of the leaders of the European side about the likelihood of Europe&#8217;s budgetary woes impacting their plans.  He didn&#8217;t seem too concerned, which surprised me.  I cannot claim to understand how the European agencies develop their funding plans, but the claim which this guy made to me is that their process is slower and steadier than the way we do things in the US.  I hope this proves correct &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Too</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/11/new-life-for-gravitational-waves-in-space/#comment-77976</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Too</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 23:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8811#comment-77976</guid>
		<description>The Europeans are under quite a bit of budget pressure too, it seems to me.  Unless they have the resources to bail out their weaker members and continue with more or less normal research activity levels?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Europeans are under quite a bit of budget pressure too, it seems to me.  Unless they have the resources to bail out their weaker members and continue with more or less normal research activity levels?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott H.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/11/new-life-for-gravitational-waves-in-space/#comment-77975</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 21:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8811#comment-77975</guid>
		<description>Charles, this is a bit different.  The concepts you focused on in your article were geared toward a US-only GW mission.  Those concepts have been analyzed, and the community is digesting the report.  The punchline seems to be that a US-only mission is unlikely given budget realities and all that is on NASA&#039;s plate at the moment.  However, it may be possible to support a role within a Europe-led mission.  The email Sean quotes here announces our plans to begin figuring out what role we might be able to play in such a framework.

Sorbet, LIGO is a US project, and the ground-based GW community (which involves projects and collaborators in Europe, Japan, India, and Australia) has a *lot* of US involvement.  LISA was developed quite a bit under NASA support (in partnership with the European Space Agency) for quite a while, but NASA is simply spread too thin to do everything that has been identified as important and interesting.  We&#039;re lucky that Europe hasn&#039;t pulled back, and that there may be an opportunity to join their efforts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charles, this is a bit different.  The concepts you focused on in your article were geared toward a US-only GW mission.  Those concepts have been analyzed, and the community is digesting the report.  The punchline seems to be that a US-only mission is unlikely given budget realities and all that is on NASA&#8217;s plate at the moment.  However, it may be possible to support a role within a Europe-led mission.  The email Sean quotes here announces our plans to begin figuring out what role we might be able to play in such a framework.</p>
<p>Sorbet, LIGO is a US project, and the ground-based GW community (which involves projects and collaborators in Europe, Japan, India, and Australia) has a *lot* of US involvement.  LISA was developed quite a bit under NASA support (in partnership with the European Space Agency) for quite a while, but NASA is simply spread too thin to do everything that has been identified as important and interesting.  We&#8217;re lucky that Europe hasn&#8217;t pulled back, and that there may be an opportunity to join their efforts.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Q. Choi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/11/new-life-for-gravitational-waves-in-space/#comment-77974</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Q. Choi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 20:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8811#comment-77974</guid>
		<description>Hey Sean -- I wrote about this for Scientific American in January:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=lisa-mission-gravitational-waves</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Sean &#8212; I wrote about this for Scientific American in January:<br />
<a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=lisa-mission-gravitational-waves" rel="nofollow">http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=lisa-mission-gravitational-waves</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/11/new-life-for-gravitational-waves-in-space/#comment-77973</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=8811#comment-77973</guid>
		<description>@2 Sorbet
Europeans believe and trust science.  US Republicans don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@2 Sorbet<br />
Europeans believe and trust science.  US Republicans don&#8217;t.</p>
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