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	<title>Comments on: Should Boys Be Given the HPV Vaccine? The Science Is Weaker than the Marketing</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/11/14/should-boys-be-given-the-hpv-vaccine-the-science-is-weaker-than-the-marketing/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/11/14/should-boys-be-given-the-hpv-vaccine-the-science-is-weaker-than-the-marketing/</link>
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		<title>By: justamom</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/11/14/should-boys-be-given-the-hpv-vaccine-the-science-is-weaker-than-the-marketing/#comment-90</link>
		<dc:creator>justamom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 20:29:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=459#comment-90</guid>
		<description>@Gaythia Weis 
What happens when immunized young adults start losing their immunity? Our current vaccination policy, targeted at reaching children before pretty much any of them become sexually active, could lead to a large group of young adults whose vaccination induced immunity is wearing off right about the time they do become sexually active. At the same time there is increasing pressure to push back the first age at which Pap smears are preformed, and also increasing the time intervals between pap smears.
Then what happens? Less cervical cancer cases or more?

Can anyone who supports the Gardasil vaccine speak to this issue?  I have been looking in vain for answers while trying to decide whether to have my 13 year old vaccinated.  Her pediatrician has been recommending it for 3 years already and I have held off primarily because my daughter is terrified of shots and I felt confident that I wasn&#039;t anywhere close to her being sexually active.  I am as concerned about the possible need for booster shots when she reaches the age of 21 when she is more likely to be sexually active than throughout the next 7 years as well as currently needing 3 rounds of shots now.  I am also concerned about more aggressive and immune resistant forms of the virus as well as substitution of other forms of HPV as the agents of cervical cancer.   Do we have real world data about the effectiveness of the vaccine since it was introduced?  Shouldn&#039;t the initial vaccinated populations be in their early to mid-20&#039;s by now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Gaythia Weis<br />
What happens when immunized young adults start losing their immunity? Our current vaccination policy, targeted at reaching children before pretty much any of them become sexually active, could lead to a large group of young adults whose vaccination induced immunity is wearing off right about the time they do become sexually active. At the same time there is increasing pressure to push back the first age at which Pap smears are preformed, and also increasing the time intervals between pap smears.<br />
Then what happens? Less cervical cancer cases or more?</p>
<p>Can anyone who supports the Gardasil vaccine speak to this issue?  I have been looking in vain for answers while trying to decide whether to have my 13 year old vaccinated.  Her pediatrician has been recommending it for 3 years already and I have held off primarily because my daughter is terrified of shots and I felt confident that I wasn&#8217;t anywhere close to her being sexually active.  I am as concerned about the possible need for booster shots when she reaches the age of 21 when she is more likely to be sexually active than throughout the next 7 years as well as currently needing 3 rounds of shots now.  I am also concerned about more aggressive and immune resistant forms of the virus as well as substitution of other forms of HPV as the agents of cervical cancer.   Do we have real world data about the effectiveness of the vaccine since it was introduced?  Shouldn&#8217;t the initial vaccinated populations be in their early to mid-20&#8242;s by now?</p>
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		<title>By: STAR</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/11/14/should-boys-be-given-the-hpv-vaccine-the-science-is-weaker-than-the-marketing/#comment-89</link>
		<dc:creator>STAR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jan 2012 20:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=459#comment-89</guid>
		<description>Lana, you make a very good point.  It is certain that with the money to administer all those vaccines they could teach kids to eat vegetables in school and give them more exercise initiatives saving many many lives...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lana, you make a very good point.  It is certain that with the money to administer all those vaccines they could teach kids to eat vegetables in school and give them more exercise initiatives saving many many lives&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: raz</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/11/14/should-boys-be-given-the-hpv-vaccine-the-science-is-weaker-than-the-marketing/#comment-88</link>
		<dc:creator>raz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2011 20:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=459#comment-88</guid>
		<description>@dyson

I just came across the words “Andrew Wakefield” in this Editorial:

http://www.ecomed.org.uk/publications/the-health-hazards-of-disease-prevention/403</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@dyson</p>
<p>I just came across the words “Andrew Wakefield” in this Editorial:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ecomed.org.uk/publications/the-health-hazards-of-disease-prevention/403" rel="nofollow">http://www.ecomed.org.uk/publications/the-health-hazards-of-disease-prevention/403</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lana</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/11/14/should-boys-be-given-the-hpv-vaccine-the-science-is-weaker-than-the-marketing/#comment-87</link>
		<dc:creator>Lana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2011 13:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=459#comment-87</guid>
		<description>Why are we spending so much time and effort on something that &quot;may&quot; prevent a disease that in the US accounts for .001 of the annual deaths? To me, vaccines are important for prevention of fatal conditions...but many of them that are given here are not actually preventing death, rather preventing missed work days among parents, and potentially creating other, more serious, conditions. Where are our priorities?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why are we spending so much time and effort on something that &#8220;may&#8221; prevent a disease that in the US accounts for .001 of the annual deaths? To me, vaccines are important for prevention of fatal conditions&#8230;but many of them that are given here are not actually preventing death, rather preventing missed work days among parents, and potentially creating other, more serious, conditions. Where are our priorities?</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn Siegel</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/11/14/should-boys-be-given-the-hpv-vaccine-the-science-is-weaker-than-the-marketing/#comment-86</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn Siegel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Nov 2011 13:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=459#comment-86</guid>
		<description>The editor has several times recommended caution in considering anecdotes and VAERS reports of adverse HPV vaccine reactions. Parental anecdotes are also eye-witness accounts, and certainly should not be routinely discounted; the simple fact is, if the vaccine left terrible consequences in its wake for even one girl, it certainly can damage others, and medical science has no way of predicting who will react adversely. The editor also states that VAERS reports (in the U.S.) are not as reliable as peer-reviewed studies, but this article addresses Merck&#039;s own clinical studies, going beyond peer-reviewed studies. If the author&#039;s statements regarding Merck&#039;s own findings are correct - a rote matter of fact, not opinion - than Gardasil has, in essence, zero effectiveness. The editor says, as well, that VAERS is self-reported - it is not. While VAERS reports can come from parents, most of them come from doctors. Moreover, even the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) has cited studies concluding that only 1% of serious reactions ever get reported. VAERS currently reflects 71 deaths associated with HPV vaccines, and almost 10,000 serious reactions. We have no way of knowing what are the real figures. In the vaccine world, safety is determined by weighing the ostensible benefits against the risks, but if the record of adverse reactions -  that is, the actual indication of risk - is egregiously incomplete, risk is literally an unknown quantity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The editor has several times recommended caution in considering anecdotes and VAERS reports of adverse HPV vaccine reactions. Parental anecdotes are also eye-witness accounts, and certainly should not be routinely discounted; the simple fact is, if the vaccine left terrible consequences in its wake for even one girl, it certainly can damage others, and medical science has no way of predicting who will react adversely. The editor also states that VAERS reports (in the U.S.) are not as reliable as peer-reviewed studies, but this article addresses Merck&#8217;s own clinical studies, going beyond peer-reviewed studies. If the author&#8217;s statements regarding Merck&#8217;s own findings are correct &#8211; a rote matter of fact, not opinion &#8211; than Gardasil has, in essence, zero effectiveness. The editor says, as well, that VAERS is self-reported &#8211; it is not. While VAERS reports can come from parents, most of them come from doctors. Moreover, even the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) has cited studies concluding that only 1% of serious reactions ever get reported. VAERS currently reflects 71 deaths associated with HPV vaccines, and almost 10,000 serious reactions. We have no way of knowing what are the real figures. In the vaccine world, safety is determined by weighing the ostensible benefits against the risks, but if the record of adverse reactions &#8211;  that is, the actual indication of risk &#8211; is egregiously incomplete, risk is literally an unknown quantity.</p>
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		<title>By: Halliday</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/11/14/should-boys-be-given-the-hpv-vaccine-the-science-is-weaker-than-the-marketing/#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator>Halliday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Nov 2011 13:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=459#comment-85</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s put this into context - I assume most of you responding are healthy or fairly healthy and one or two may have a similar experience in respect of what I am going to relate to you now.

Now imagine yourself as a trusting 13 year old.  You look at your mumm and she advises you that the HPV is safe.  The medical professionals, the government and the manufacturers say so in their very sparse literature but clever marketed strategy.  It&#039;s going to save your life.  You are not going to get Cervical Cancer if you take this vaccine.  (SCARE TACTICS).

So you are 13, you like sports, you play sports:  football, cycling, tennis, basketball, bowling, dancing, jogging, mucking around, play fighting, walking, normal teenage stuff.  You also don&#039;t want to die of Cervical Cancer.  No one does.

Then you get the shot.  You are sick, dizzy, have a headache, sore arm.  A month later (a relatively short space of time to notice a reaction), you get the second shot.  Again you are sick, dizzy, have more headaches, your arm aches.  The symptoms don&#039;t go away.  In fact they get worse.  Your 13 you don&#039;t feel like yourself, you don&#039;t what&#039;s wrong with your body, your not able to communicate to your parents that you feel different.  You start feeling stiff, and get stiffer.

Then you parents notice the expected side-effects have not gone away.  You are acting oddly but you can&#039;t tell them what is wrong beause you don&#039;t know yourself.  

Then you find your body racked in pain, every muscle and joint aches.  Your sick, you can&#039;t eat, your tired.  Your 13 lying in a sick bed.  You can&#039;t walk, you have no energy.  You don&#039;t go to school.  You have string upon string of unexplained illnesses that the doctors can&#039;t fix.  The very people the leaflet says to go to if you suffer a side-effect - they can&#039;t fix you.  

You are 13 and you are scared.  What&#039;s happening mummy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s put this into context &#8211; I assume most of you responding are healthy or fairly healthy and one or two may have a similar experience in respect of what I am going to relate to you now.</p>
<p>Now imagine yourself as a trusting 13 year old.  You look at your mumm and she advises you that the HPV is safe.  The medical professionals, the government and the manufacturers say so in their very sparse literature but clever marketed strategy.  It&#8217;s going to save your life.  You are not going to get Cervical Cancer if you take this vaccine.  (SCARE TACTICS).</p>
<p>So you are 13, you like sports, you play sports:  football, cycling, tennis, basketball, bowling, dancing, jogging, mucking around, play fighting, walking, normal teenage stuff.  You also don&#8217;t want to die of Cervical Cancer.  No one does.</p>
<p>Then you get the shot.  You are sick, dizzy, have a headache, sore arm.  A month later (a relatively short space of time to notice a reaction), you get the second shot.  Again you are sick, dizzy, have more headaches, your arm aches.  The symptoms don&#8217;t go away.  In fact they get worse.  Your 13 you don&#8217;t feel like yourself, you don&#8217;t what&#8217;s wrong with your body, your not able to communicate to your parents that you feel different.  You start feeling stiff, and get stiffer.</p>
<p>Then you parents notice the expected side-effects have not gone away.  You are acting oddly but you can&#8217;t tell them what is wrong beause you don&#8217;t know yourself.  </p>
<p>Then you find your body racked in pain, every muscle and joint aches.  Your sick, you can&#8217;t eat, your tired.  Your 13 lying in a sick bed.  You can&#8217;t walk, you have no energy.  You don&#8217;t go to school.  You have string upon string of unexplained illnesses that the doctors can&#8217;t fix.  The very people the leaflet says to go to if you suffer a side-effect &#8211; they can&#8217;t fix you.  </p>
<p>You are 13 and you are scared.  What&#8217;s happening mummy?</p>
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		<title>By: Hemlock</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/11/14/should-boys-be-given-the-hpv-vaccine-the-science-is-weaker-than-the-marketing/#comment-84</link>
		<dc:creator>Hemlock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Nov 2011 03:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=459#comment-84</guid>
		<description>&quot;This is however not the case as one comprehensive review on CIN shows. It was found in this review that the likelihood of CIN2+ progressing to invasion is only 5%.2 In other words 95% of the time CIN2+ remains harmless in the woman it is found.&quot;

2 Andrew G. Ostor, International Journal of Gynecological Pathology 12, 186 (1993).

Sounds rather authoritative, but is an cherry picked quote that misrepresents what the study said by substituting in higher grade lesions in for the figures found by the author  for CIN1.  As Ostor noted himself, testing can become treatment as biopsies can alter the course of events either by obliterating a very small lesion or causing an inflammatory response and also that it&#039;s impossible to predict whether a lesion will progress or regress just from looking at it. It&#039;s very likely these figures are an underestimate, as other studies in the 1950-60&#039;s into Carcinoma in Situ and it&#039;s progression to cancer found this happened at least 30% of the time (studies ranged in length from 1-23 years). At least a third of women having the condition become invasive cancer is significant, and it&#039;s simply wrong to suggest that progression is so rare that you can ignore the whole thing. Ostor&#039;s study stopped at CIN3 as it&#039;s unethical to sit there and watch study participants develop cancer just so you know how often it happens, particularly when the condition is very treatable at an earlier stage. Actually, that&#039;s the same for the vaccine and for - using the endpoint of high grade lesion is sufficient, given you know a significant number will go on to develop cancer. Early prevention/treatment whether with a vaccine or a smear to detect the lesion earlier saves a lot of morbidity and mortality down the track.

Here&#039;s what the author says: &quot;The literature dealing with the natural history of cervical intraepithelial neoplasia (CIN) since 1950 is reviewed, in particular from the viewpoint of regression, persistence, and progression. When stratified into the various grades of severity, the composite data indicate the approximate likelihood of regression of CIN 1 is 60%, persistence 30%, progression to CIN 3 10%, and progression to invasion 1%. The corresponding approximations for CIN 2 are 40%, 40%, 20%, and 5%, respectively. The likelihood of CIN 3 regressing is 33% and progressing to invasion greater than 12%. It is obvious from the above figures that the probability of an atypical epithelium becoming invasive increases with the severity of the atypia, but does not occur in every case. Even the higher degrees of atypia may regress in a significant proportion of cases. As morphology by itself does not predict which lesion will progress or regress, future efforts should seek factors other than morphological to determine the prognosis in individual patients.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This is however not the case as one comprehensive review on CIN shows. It was found in this review that the likelihood of CIN2+ progressing to invasion is only 5%.2 In other words 95% of the time CIN2+ remains harmless in the woman it is found.&#8221;</p>
<p>2 Andrew G. Ostor, International Journal of Gynecological Pathology 12, 186 (1993).</p>
<p>Sounds rather authoritative, but is an cherry picked quote that misrepresents what the study said by substituting in higher grade lesions in for the figures found by the author  for CIN1.  As Ostor noted himself, testing can become treatment as biopsies can alter the course of events either by obliterating a very small lesion or causing an inflammatory response and also that it&#8217;s impossible to predict whether a lesion will progress or regress just from looking at it. It&#8217;s very likely these figures are an underestimate, as other studies in the 1950-60&#8242;s into Carcinoma in Situ and it&#8217;s progression to cancer found this happened at least 30% of the time (studies ranged in length from 1-23 years). At least a third of women having the condition become invasive cancer is significant, and it&#8217;s simply wrong to suggest that progression is so rare that you can ignore the whole thing. Ostor&#8217;s study stopped at CIN3 as it&#8217;s unethical to sit there and watch study participants develop cancer just so you know how often it happens, particularly when the condition is very treatable at an earlier stage. Actually, that&#8217;s the same for the vaccine and for &#8211; using the endpoint of high grade lesion is sufficient, given you know a significant number will go on to develop cancer. Early prevention/treatment whether with a vaccine or a smear to detect the lesion earlier saves a lot of morbidity and mortality down the track.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s what the author says: &#8220;The literature dealing with the natural history of cervical intraepithelial neoplasia (CIN) since 1950 is reviewed, in particular from the viewpoint of regression, persistence, and progression. When stratified into the various grades of severity, the composite data indicate the approximate likelihood of regression of CIN 1 is 60%, persistence 30%, progression to CIN 3 10%, and progression to invasion 1%. The corresponding approximations for CIN 2 are 40%, 40%, 20%, and 5%, respectively. The likelihood of CIN 3 regressing is 33% and progressing to invasion greater than 12%. It is obvious from the above figures that the probability of an atypical epithelium becoming invasive increases with the severity of the atypia, but does not occur in every case. Even the higher degrees of atypia may regress in a significant proportion of cases. As morphology by itself does not predict which lesion will progress or regress, future efforts should seek factors other than morphological to determine the prognosis in individual patients.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: raz</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/11/14/should-boys-be-given-the-hpv-vaccine-the-science-is-weaker-than-the-marketing/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>raz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Nov 2011 16:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=459#comment-83</guid>
		<description>@dyson

As a matter of fact, &quot;there is, as yet, no direct scientiﬁc proof of the effect of the vaccine on morbidity and mortality, and it will take signiﬁcant time and resources to obtain such evidence.&quot;

All the rest is vaccination policy, funding, marketing, politics and ethics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@dyson</p>
<p>As a matter of fact, &#8220;there is, as yet, no direct scientiﬁc proof of the effect of the vaccine on morbidity and mortality, and it will take signiﬁcant time and resources to obtain such evidence.&#8221;</p>
<p>All the rest is vaccination policy, funding, marketing, politics and ethics.</p>
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		<title>By: dyson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/11/14/should-boys-be-given-the-hpv-vaccine-the-science-is-weaker-than-the-marketing/#comment-82</link>
		<dc:creator>dyson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Nov 2011 08:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=459#comment-82</guid>
		<description>@Raz
Neat dodge.

Now you are confusing your uncorroborated attempts to smear the authors of this HPV vaccine study under discussion with accusations of fraud with the &quot;bigger picture&quot; of vaccination policy, funding, marketing, politics and ethics.

There is a lot to say about these, much of it contentious and some of it bad, but nothing which detracts from the efficacy of the vaccine. If you wish to broaden the debate into these multiple areas, feel free, but I&#039;d rather stick to the subject under discussion than see people introducing straw men into the debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Raz<br />
Neat dodge.</p>
<p>Now you are confusing your uncorroborated attempts to smear the authors of this HPV vaccine study under discussion with accusations of fraud with the &#8220;bigger picture&#8221; of vaccination policy, funding, marketing, politics and ethics.</p>
<p>There is a lot to say about these, much of it contentious and some of it bad, but nothing which detracts from the efficacy of the vaccine. If you wish to broaden the debate into these multiple areas, feel free, but I&#8217;d rather stick to the subject under discussion than see people introducing straw men into the debate.</p>
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		<title>By: Garbosmed</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/11/14/should-boys-be-given-the-hpv-vaccine-the-science-is-weaker-than-the-marketing/#comment-81</link>
		<dc:creator>Garbosmed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Nov 2011 01:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=459#comment-81</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s little discussed but should be are two very salient points.  

First, the adverse event rate for this vaccine is being calculated against number of doses shipped, rather than number of doses administered.  What that means is that if the manufacturer ships two million doses, but only two are administered and both of those patients have adverse reactions, the true adverse event rate is 100% but it is being &quot;officially&quot; calculated as 1 in 1 million.  If health officials think the vaccine has such a good safety profile, why the statistical charade?

Second, in the original clinical trials for Gardasil it was found that the vaccine had a NEGATIVE efficacy of over 44% in women who had already been exposed to the strains of HPV found in the vaccine.  That means they had 44% higher risk of developing cervical abnormalities.  (See the FDA meeting document here:  http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/06/briefing/2006-4222B3.pdf ).  Public health officials &quot;solved&quot; this problem by mandating the vaccine for younger children before they become sexually active, despite the vaccine not being adequately studied in that population and ignoring evidence that HPV can be transmitted maternally and those children may already have been exposed despite never having sex.  Currently there is NO HPV testing mandated before vaccination.  This is a ridiculous risk that should be mitigated but it won&#039;t be due to cost and the confusion is might create over the relative benefits (or lack thereof) of this vaccine.  It&#039;s no wonder the public has lost trust over this issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s little discussed but should be are two very salient points.  </p>
<p>First, the adverse event rate for this vaccine is being calculated against number of doses shipped, rather than number of doses administered.  What that means is that if the manufacturer ships two million doses, but only two are administered and both of those patients have adverse reactions, the true adverse event rate is 100% but it is being &#8220;officially&#8221; calculated as 1 in 1 million.  If health officials think the vaccine has such a good safety profile, why the statistical charade?</p>
<p>Second, in the original clinical trials for Gardasil it was found that the vaccine had a NEGATIVE efficacy of over 44% in women who had already been exposed to the strains of HPV found in the vaccine.  That means they had 44% higher risk of developing cervical abnormalities.  (See the FDA meeting document here:  <a href="http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/06/briefing/2006-4222B3.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/06/briefing/2006-4222B3.pdf</a> ).  Public health officials &#8220;solved&#8221; this problem by mandating the vaccine for younger children before they become sexually active, despite the vaccine not being adequately studied in that population and ignoring evidence that HPV can be transmitted maternally and those children may already have been exposed despite never having sex.  Currently there is NO HPV testing mandated before vaccination.  This is a ridiculous risk that should be mitigated but it won&#8217;t be due to cost and the confusion is might create over the relative benefits (or lack thereof) of this vaccine.  It&#8217;s no wonder the public has lost trust over this issue.</p>
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