<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: I, Robopsychologist, Part 2: Where Human Brains Far Surpass Computers</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/02/09/i-robopsychologist-part-2-where-human-brains-far-surpass-computers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/02/09/i-robopsychologist-part-2-where-human-brains-far-surpass-computers/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 22:39:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bill Ries</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/02/09/i-robopsychologist-part-2-where-human-brains-far-surpass-computers/#comment-648</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Ries</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 00:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=945#comment-648</guid>
		<description>Lets not forget about the required human psychology. When machines can think and feel as humans do, it becomes a moral requirement to treat them like humans. It is difficult to imagine the average person thinking of a robot as being more than a machine and deserving of human rights. I can imagine most people caring more about the treatment of lower order mammal than that of a high level machine, even if the robot has far more advanced emotions. Do we really want them to think and feel as humans do? It is the emotional state of a being that makes them human, not flesh and blood. At what emotional level does &quot;Robota&quot; go from the czech word for slave to actual slavery?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lets not forget about the required human psychology. When machines can think and feel as humans do, it becomes a moral requirement to treat them like humans. It is difficult to imagine the average person thinking of a robot as being more than a machine and deserving of human rights. I can imagine most people caring more about the treatment of lower order mammal than that of a high level machine, even if the robot has far more advanced emotions. Do we really want them to think and feel as humans do? It is the emotional state of a being that makes them human, not flesh and blood. At what emotional level does &#8220;Robota&#8221; go from the czech word for slave to actual slavery?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave Whitlock</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/02/09/i-robopsychologist-part-2-where-human-brains-far-surpass-computers/#comment-647</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Whitlock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=945#comment-647</guid>
		<description>Al Cibiades, dead is not a relative term.  ATP levels below what is necessary to sustain viability is irreversible death.  

You say intelligence is self-evident.  If you can&#039;t tell about rats and spiders, then what about intelligence is &quot;self-evident&quot;?  

I say verification of the existence of intelligence in biological entities is a matter of data, which requires instruments and measurement.  It is important to try and avoid artifice, which is why calling things &quot;self-evident&quot; is poor form.  Many things are in the eye of the beholder.  If you want to study something and recreate it, subjective definitions are less useful than objective definitions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Al Cibiades, dead is not a relative term.  ATP levels below what is necessary to sustain viability is irreversible death.  </p>
<p>You say intelligence is self-evident.  If you can&#8217;t tell about rats and spiders, then what about intelligence is &#8220;self-evident&#8221;?  </p>
<p>I say verification of the existence of intelligence in biological entities is a matter of data, which requires instruments and measurement.  It is important to try and avoid artifice, which is why calling things &#8220;self-evident&#8221; is poor form.  Many things are in the eye of the beholder.  If you want to study something and recreate it, subjective definitions are less useful than objective definitions.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Al Cibiades</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/02/09/i-robopsychologist-part-2-where-human-brains-far-surpass-computers/#comment-646</link>
		<dc:creator>Al Cibiades</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 23:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=945#comment-646</guid>
		<description>&gt;Dave - Not to put too fine a point on it but &quot;dead&quot; is a relative term -- The cardiac catheter patient &quot;dead&quot; for 90 seconds but who regains consciousness/life; the child frozen in a lake for 30 minutes - drowned &quot;dead&quot;, but resusitated... Not sure where on the continuum this reaches (and I am not defending spiritualism), but &quot;while there is more than is dreamnt of&quot; in my philosophies, implied catchphrases do not an edifice make. Intelligence in humans is &quot;self-evident&quot; simply because that is how &quot;we&quot; define it. Are dogs, cats, whales, chimpanzees, spiders, planaria, rats, etc...intelligent? Now the definition reprises itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;Dave &#8211; Not to put too fine a point on it but &#8220;dead&#8221; is a relative term &#8212; The cardiac catheter patient &#8220;dead&#8221; for 90 seconds but who regains consciousness/life; the child frozen in a lake for 30 minutes &#8211; drowned &#8220;dead&#8221;, but resusitated&#8230; Not sure where on the continuum this reaches (and I am not defending spiritualism), but &#8220;while there is more than is dreamnt of&#8221; in my philosophies, implied catchphrases do not an edifice make. Intelligence in humans is &#8220;self-evident&#8221; simply because that is how &#8220;we&#8221; define it. Are dogs, cats, whales, chimpanzees, spiders, planaria, rats, etc&#8230;intelligent? Now the definition reprises itself.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ramona Patrick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/02/09/i-robopsychologist-part-2-where-human-brains-far-surpass-computers/#comment-645</link>
		<dc:creator>Ramona Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 15:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=945#comment-645</guid>
		<description>Brain research is absolutely fascinating to me. As an educator who has been in the field for over 30 years, I am always interested in what is going on inside the heads of my students
 At the same time, however, I am constantly amazed by their never-ending strategies for problem solving and task avoidance. I really had a high opinion of myself during my high school years, but I would have much to learn to maintain the the pace with today&#039;s scholar. I believe that is the essence of where this AI will fail. AI may be able to do many things, but at it&#039;s soul level, it will still be a machine. I really wish that all AI monies expended on creating the one thing humans are achieving quite successfully without science (creating human brains) would alter its focus and join efforts with those who are diligently seeking to rid this world of horrible maladies of the brain that strip meaningful life of humans who are already here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brain research is absolutely fascinating to me. As an educator who has been in the field for over 30 years, I am always interested in what is going on inside the heads of my students<br />
 At the same time, however, I am constantly amazed by their never-ending strategies for problem solving and task avoidance. I really had a high opinion of myself during my high school years, but I would have much to learn to maintain the the pace with today&#8217;s scholar. I believe that is the essence of where this AI will fail. AI may be able to do many things, but at it&#8217;s soul level, it will still be a machine. I really wish that all AI monies expended on creating the one thing humans are achieving quite successfully without science (creating human brains) would alter its focus and join efforts with those who are diligently seeking to rid this world of horrible maladies of the brain that strip meaningful life of humans who are already here.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave Whitlock</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/02/09/i-robopsychologist-part-2-where-human-brains-far-surpass-computers/#comment-644</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Whitlock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 01:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=945#comment-644</guid>
		<description>Al Cibiades, living flesh and dead flesh are very different substrates.  

It isn&#039;t that intelligent biological entities are &quot;self-evident&quot;, that they exist is &quot;data&quot;, an example.   

My understanding of what Monica Anderson is trying to achieve are emergent properties of assemblies of elements without those properties.  Sort of like how an object can be built out of Legos.  The properties of the object are not contained in the Legos, they are an emergent property of how the Legos are put together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Al Cibiades, living flesh and dead flesh are very different substrates.  </p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t that intelligent biological entities are &#8220;self-evident&#8221;, that they exist is &#8220;data&#8221;, an example.   </p>
<p>My understanding of what Monica Anderson is trying to achieve are emergent properties of assemblies of elements without those properties.  Sort of like how an object can be built out of Legos.  The properties of the object are not contained in the Legos, they are an emergent property of how the Legos are put together.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kirk</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/02/09/i-robopsychologist-part-2-where-human-brains-far-surpass-computers/#comment-643</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 22:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=945#comment-643</guid>
		<description>A reductionist argument is existential -- as soon as I have working AI I will be able to reverse engineer it (and it may be made of a million tiny robots). My crystal ball works as well as yours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A reductionist argument is existential &#8212; as soon as I have working AI I will be able to reverse engineer it (and it may be made of a million tiny robots). My crystal ball works as well as yours.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Greg Fish</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/02/09/i-robopsychologist-part-2-where-human-brains-far-surpass-computers/#comment-642</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Fish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=945#comment-642</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;A current trend in AI research involves attempts to replicate a human learning system at the neuronal level—beginning with a single functioning synapse, then an entire neuron, the ultimate goal being a complete replication of the human brain.&lt;/i&gt;

Not at all. Certainly neurons are an important thing to study for any AI system because they make up the brain so studying them to understand how the brain can come together is as important to AI research as studying subatomic components is to a particle physicist. But we don&#039;t actually want to replicate the brain neuron by neuron because then we&#039;d be dealing with hundreds of billions of them without any guarantee of how well they&#039;ll actually come together. Each person&#039;s brain is wired differently and so should each synthetic cognitive entity&#039;s. When dealing with large enough artificial neural networks designed to tackle a complex enough problem, you&#039;re going to see marked differences in the weights between neurons across multiple systems designed to tackle the same problem. And we&#039;re fine with that despite what Anderson supposes.

&lt;i&gt;Basing an AI system on the function of a single neuron is like designing an entire highway system based on the function of a car engine, rather than the behavior of a population of cars and their drivers in the context of a city.&lt;/i&gt;

And that&#039;s why no one actually does that. Code only makes sense in context. How to tackle a problem only makes sense in a context. You&#039;re doing the equivalent of saying that plumbers just lay pipe with no concern for the house in which they&#039;re doing it while right behind you the very same plumbers are trying to figure out how to best fit the pipes between beams and studs to keep it out of the homeowner&#039;s way. Neurons are just components. We plug them into a system, give it a problem to tackle and see what happens as it learns. That&#039;s been the standard approach for decades.

&lt;i&gt;Take away the errors, remove serendipitous learning, discount intuition, and you remove any chance of any true creative cognition. &lt;/i&gt;

Define errors. When we talk about errors in the AI world, we mean that a machine meant to solve a maze is stuck and can&#039;t get out. We talk about a device that calculates 2 + 2 as &quot;lightly smoked haddock.&quot; There have been numerous experiments in which robots arrived at novel solutions to problems such as chasing another robot or developing a strategy to recharge themselves. Those are not considered errors. They&#039;re actually considered to be significant breakthroughs, appear in papers, and cause &quot;oohs&quot; and &quot;ahhs&quot; in grad school comp sci classes.

&lt;i&gt;Now imagine programming AI to stand up and walk across the room. You need to instruct it to do every single motion and action that it takes to complete that task.&lt;/i&gt;

No you don&#039;t. You set up the basic environmental inputs as variables and goad it into standing up and walking across the room step by step, building on every successful trial. Considering that you&#039;ll have to calculate the weight of motors, the power of the actuators, how the machine will behave when walking, etc, it&#039;s just easier to have the machine do its own calculating. Again, this is now fast becoming the norm and there&#039;s been a small explosion of papers since 2005 trying to figure out the beast ways to teach robots and robot swarms how to move. You may want to familiarize yourself with the work of Josh Bongard for starters. There are also three or four ongoing projects on self-learning robot locomotion running since 2002 which generated more than 100 papers on the subject combined.

&lt;i&gt;But what if you could teach AI to operate using the implicit system, based on intuition, rather than having to run through endless computations to come up with a single solution?&lt;/i&gt;

And again, single solution AIs are generally used in high level undergraduate AI courses to give students the hang of how to use and program ANNs. Most AI labs are focused on using that reductionist model to induce emergent behavior such as being able to tell which group of objects is bigger than another while trying instead to learn counting (Stoianov, Zorzi doi:10.1038/nn.2996), or successfully finding an unexpected way for the robot to move efficiently (Bondarg, Zykov, Lipson DOI: 10.1126/science.1133687). If you confine the domain space to a single solution, of course you&#039;ll lose emergence. But yet again, we don&#039;t do that. We broaden the domain to give interesting things a chance to happen.

What Anderson is doing is hacking away at a strawman, presenting AI researchers as stuck with their noses in code, programming robots like they&#039;d program an enterprise system, but in reality, what she calls &quot;intuitive&quot; AI has been the standard research model for more than a decade now, built and programmed by those reductionist, linear coders. I don&#039;t know if she&#039;s doing this to promote her lab or if she really thinks that AI people have no clue what they&#039;re doing while she arrived at similar conclusions they did about 12 to 15 years after they started implementing them and because she hasn&#039;t kept up with the literature doesn&#039;t know it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>A current trend in AI research involves attempts to replicate a human learning system at the neuronal level—beginning with a single functioning synapse, then an entire neuron, the ultimate goal being a complete replication of the human brain.</i></p>
<p>Not at all. Certainly neurons are an important thing to study for any AI system because they make up the brain so studying them to understand how the brain can come together is as important to AI research as studying subatomic components is to a particle physicist. But we don&#8217;t actually want to replicate the brain neuron by neuron because then we&#8217;d be dealing with hundreds of billions of them without any guarantee of how well they&#8217;ll actually come together. Each person&#8217;s brain is wired differently and so should each synthetic cognitive entity&#8217;s. When dealing with large enough artificial neural networks designed to tackle a complex enough problem, you&#8217;re going to see marked differences in the weights between neurons across multiple systems designed to tackle the same problem. And we&#8217;re fine with that despite what Anderson supposes.</p>
<p><i>Basing an AI system on the function of a single neuron is like designing an entire highway system based on the function of a car engine, rather than the behavior of a population of cars and their drivers in the context of a city.</i></p>
<p>And that&#8217;s why no one actually does that. Code only makes sense in context. How to tackle a problem only makes sense in a context. You&#8217;re doing the equivalent of saying that plumbers just lay pipe with no concern for the house in which they&#8217;re doing it while right behind you the very same plumbers are trying to figure out how to best fit the pipes between beams and studs to keep it out of the homeowner&#8217;s way. Neurons are just components. We plug them into a system, give it a problem to tackle and see what happens as it learns. That&#8217;s been the standard approach for decades.</p>
<p><i>Take away the errors, remove serendipitous learning, discount intuition, and you remove any chance of any true creative cognition. </i></p>
<p>Define errors. When we talk about errors in the AI world, we mean that a machine meant to solve a maze is stuck and can&#8217;t get out. We talk about a device that calculates 2 + 2 as &#8220;lightly smoked haddock.&#8221; There have been numerous experiments in which robots arrived at novel solutions to problems such as chasing another robot or developing a strategy to recharge themselves. Those are not considered errors. They&#8217;re actually considered to be significant breakthroughs, appear in papers, and cause &#8220;oohs&#8221; and &#8220;ahhs&#8221; in grad school comp sci classes.</p>
<p><i>Now imagine programming AI to stand up and walk across the room. You need to instruct it to do every single motion and action that it takes to complete that task.</i></p>
<p>No you don&#8217;t. You set up the basic environmental inputs as variables and goad it into standing up and walking across the room step by step, building on every successful trial. Considering that you&#8217;ll have to calculate the weight of motors, the power of the actuators, how the machine will behave when walking, etc, it&#8217;s just easier to have the machine do its own calculating. Again, this is now fast becoming the norm and there&#8217;s been a small explosion of papers since 2005 trying to figure out the beast ways to teach robots and robot swarms how to move. You may want to familiarize yourself with the work of Josh Bongard for starters. There are also three or four ongoing projects on self-learning robot locomotion running since 2002 which generated more than 100 papers on the subject combined.</p>
<p><i>But what if you could teach AI to operate using the implicit system, based on intuition, rather than having to run through endless computations to come up with a single solution?</i></p>
<p>And again, single solution AIs are generally used in high level undergraduate AI courses to give students the hang of how to use and program ANNs. Most AI labs are focused on using that reductionist model to induce emergent behavior such as being able to tell which group of objects is bigger than another while trying instead to learn counting (Stoianov, Zorzi doi:10.1038/nn.2996), or successfully finding an unexpected way for the robot to move efficiently (Bondarg, Zykov, Lipson DOI: 10.1126/science.1133687). If you confine the domain space to a single solution, of course you&#8217;ll lose emergence. But yet again, we don&#8217;t do that. We broaden the domain to give interesting things a chance to happen.</p>
<p>What Anderson is doing is hacking away at a strawman, presenting AI researchers as stuck with their noses in code, programming robots like they&#8217;d program an enterprise system, but in reality, what she calls &#8220;intuitive&#8221; AI has been the standard research model for more than a decade now, built and programmed by those reductionist, linear coders. I don&#8217;t know if she&#8217;s doing this to promote her lab or if she really thinks that AI people have no clue what they&#8217;re doing while she arrived at similar conclusions they did about 12 to 15 years after they started implementing them and because she hasn&#8217;t kept up with the literature doesn&#8217;t know it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: the amazing intuitive, understanding a.i.? &#187; weird things</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/02/09/i-robopsychologist-part-2-where-human-brains-far-surpass-computers/#comment-641</link>
		<dc:creator>the amazing intuitive, understanding a.i.? &#187; weird things</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=945#comment-641</guid>
		<description>[...] of what the company that hired her, Syntience, seems to be up to just in time for Kuszewski to post a follow-up linking to the very ideas of the company&#8217;s CEO, Monica Anderson, she presented as a trade [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of what the company that hired her, Syntience, seems to be up to just in time for Kuszewski to post a follow-up linking to the very ideas of the company&#8217;s CEO, Monica Anderson, she presented as a trade [...] </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/02/09/i-robopsychologist-part-2-where-human-brains-far-surpass-computers/#comment-640</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 09:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=945#comment-640</guid>
		<description>Computers will need the ability to have varying degrees of memory. Important, repeated and/or recent things are strong, and some things are forgotten.
To be more human-like, a computer will need to be able to grow.  Bad news is that it can&#039;t. Brains change over time as connections are broken or formed, but a computer can&#039;t do this. AI in machines will never happen. Only real intelligence in a biological organism can be achieved. Genetic engineering to create brains similar to our own in animals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Computers will need the ability to have varying degrees of memory. Important, repeated and/or recent things are strong, and some things are forgotten.<br />
To be more human-like, a computer will need to be able to grow.  Bad news is that it can&#8217;t. Brains change over time as connections are broken or formed, but a computer can&#8217;t do this. AI in machines will never happen. Only real intelligence in a biological organism can be achieved. Genetic engineering to create brains similar to our own in animals.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Al Cibiades</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/02/09/i-robopsychologist-part-2-where-human-brains-far-surpass-computers/#comment-639</link>
		<dc:creator>Al Cibiades</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 04:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=945#comment-639</guid>
		<description>&gt;Dave W - I can see by your blog Daedalus you would share a commonality of thinking with the presentation of this thesis.
But &quot;assemblies of matter can generate biological intelligence&quot; means what? Biological assemblies (organisms) can be intelligent? I take that as self evident.
Nothing unique in the brain which cannot be replicated in other substrates? I thought one of the themes of Monica Anderson (Syntience) was that the whole CAN be greater than the sum of its parts. Suffocate the organism and it dies - how to re-animate it as it is still the same substrate? Yet NOT the same.
The program ELIZA demonstrated that what we THINK of as intelligence, can be played well by artifice. The point being that &quot;intelligence&quot; is a slippery term, indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;Dave W &#8211; I can see by your blog Daedalus you would share a commonality of thinking with the presentation of this thesis.<br />
But &#8220;assemblies of matter can generate biological intelligence&#8221; means what? Biological assemblies (organisms) can be intelligent? I take that as self evident.<br />
Nothing unique in the brain which cannot be replicated in other substrates? I thought one of the themes of Monica Anderson (Syntience) was that the whole CAN be greater than the sum of its parts. Suffocate the organism and it dies &#8211; how to re-animate it as it is still the same substrate? Yet NOT the same.<br />
The program ELIZA demonstrated that what we THINK of as intelligence, can be played well by artifice. The point being that &#8220;intelligence&#8221; is a slippery term, indeed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
