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	<title>Comments on: Is Environmentalism Anti-Science?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/05/24/is-environmentalism-anti-science/</link>
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		<title>By: theoldman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/05/24/is-environmentalism-anti-science/#comment-1399</link>
		<dc:creator>theoldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2012 16:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=1763#comment-1399</guid>
		<description>So a big complaint against GMO technology is that it can only be made and understood by a small number of people and, to date, a small number of companies, thus causing some sort of economical stranglehold on the rest of us.

In that vein, given the ubiquity of computers, just how many people and how many companies can make and understand the intel processor family and their machine instruction sets?  Maybe we should destroy their silicon foundries too and replace them with electronic tube (valves) makers?

And, let&#039;s not forget about steels and other metals and alloys.  After all, only a few companies worldwide actually make the stuff !  Shut them down too and let&#039;s all go back to wood and stone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So a big complaint against GMO technology is that it can only be made and understood by a small number of people and, to date, a small number of companies, thus causing some sort of economical stranglehold on the rest of us.</p>
<p>In that vein, given the ubiquity of computers, just how many people and how many companies can make and understand the intel processor family and their machine instruction sets?  Maybe we should destroy their silicon foundries too and replace them with electronic tube (valves) makers?</p>
<p>And, let&#8217;s not forget about steels and other metals and alloys.  After all, only a few companies worldwide actually make the stuff !  Shut them down too and let&#8217;s all go back to wood and stone.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Lewis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/05/24/is-environmentalism-anti-science/#comment-1398</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jul 2012 17:24:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=1763#comment-1398</guid>
		<description>There are only two drivers of human interest in the world today - Truth or Money - obviously two entirely incompatible factors.  

The result is a sod&#039;s opera of opinion supported either by emotion or doctored science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are only two drivers of human interest in the world today &#8211; Truth or Money &#8211; obviously two entirely incompatible factors.  </p>
<p>The result is a sod&#8217;s opera of opinion supported either by emotion or doctored science.</p>
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		<title>By: Still Green</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/05/24/is-environmentalism-anti-science/#comment-1397</link>
		<dc:creator>Still Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2012 01:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=1763#comment-1397</guid>
		<description>Did Discover Magazine get bought by the likes of Monsanto or something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did Discover Magazine get bought by the likes of Monsanto or something?</p>
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		<title>By: Maureen Ogle</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/05/24/is-environmentalism-anti-science/#comment-1396</link>
		<dc:creator>Maureen Ogle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 16:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=1763#comment-1396</guid>
		<description>Fascinating that so many of the &quot;sources&quot; cited here as places to find more information are sources with a specific political agenda (one side or the other). Meaning: it&#039;s a bit useless to point people toward such sources and expect them to get better information when t hose sources are hellbent on repeating debunked BS as if it&#039;s &quot;fact.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating that so many of the &#8220;sources&#8221; cited here as places to find more information are sources with a specific political agenda (one side or the other). Meaning: it&#8217;s a bit useless to point people toward such sources and expect them to get better information when t hose sources are hellbent on repeating debunked BS as if it&#8217;s &#8220;fact.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Haro von Mogel</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/05/24/is-environmentalism-anti-science/#comment-1395</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Haro von Mogel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 15:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=1763#comment-1395</guid>
		<description>To attract the attention and ire of Bill Freese from the CFS means that you are getting your message out. While he is correct that herbicide-tolerant crops have not increased yield (nor decreased it), he is overlooking the fact that Bt crops have in fact increased yield on the farm. He knows this.
He also bring up Agent Orange, which bring up imagery of a tragedy that not only misrepresents 2,4-D but is also emotionally manipulative. For a post on this, see this:
http://www.biofortified.org/2012/03/misuse-of-a-vietnam-era-tragedy/
You will notice Bill stopping by to dispute, but avoiding several direct questions.
It is really quite unfortunate that people on the extremes on this issue cannot be more level-headed and come together to figure out places where they agree and disagree and move the discussion forward. Bill Freese has made some good comments about overuse of glyphosate-based weed control, but the constant adversarial tone is a turn-off. Certainly it would save more time and sweat to approach disagreements in a more constructive manner?
With regard to the &quot;higher risks of harmful changes to food&quot;, I can simply cite these resources:
http://www.biofortified.org/genera/studies-for-genera/
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309092094
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=12804#toc
and don&#039;t forget the long-term and multi-generational feeding trial review:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691511006399</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To attract the attention and ire of Bill Freese from the CFS means that you are getting your message out. While he is correct that herbicide-tolerant crops have not increased yield (nor decreased it), he is overlooking the fact that Bt crops have in fact increased yield on the farm. He knows this.<br />
He also bring up Agent Orange, which bring up imagery of a tragedy that not only misrepresents 2,4-D but is also emotionally manipulative. For a post on this, see this:<br />
<a href="http://www.biofortified.org/2012/03/misuse-of-a-vietnam-era-tragedy/" rel="nofollow">http://www.biofortified.org/2012/03/misuse-of-a-vietnam-era-tragedy/</a><br />
You will notice Bill stopping by to dispute, but avoiding several direct questions.<br />
It is really quite unfortunate that people on the extremes on this issue cannot be more level-headed and come together to figure out places where they agree and disagree and move the discussion forward. Bill Freese has made some good comments about overuse of glyphosate-based weed control, but the constant adversarial tone is a turn-off. Certainly it would save more time and sweat to approach disagreements in a more constructive manner?<br />
With regard to the &#8220;higher risks of harmful changes to food&#8221;, I can simply cite these resources:<br />
<a href="http://www.biofortified.org/genera/studies-for-genera/" rel="nofollow">http://www.biofortified.org/genera/studies-for-genera/</a><br />
<a href="http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309092094" rel="nofollow">http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309092094</a><br />
<a href="http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=12804#toc" rel="nofollow">http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=12804#toc</a><br />
and don&#8217;t forget the long-term and multi-generational feeding trial review:<br />
<a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691511006399" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691511006399</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/05/24/is-environmentalism-anti-science/#comment-1394</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 15:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=1763#comment-1394</guid>
		<description>@BillF: Every post on this topic goes round-and-round on stats, and that&#039;s not worth it here. Just answer me two-ish questions:

1. Are you opposed to conventionally-generated herbicide resistance (like Clearfield)?  Why is that different?

2. Is there any case of a GMO you would ever entertain? What would its criteria be?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@BillF: Every post on this topic goes round-and-round on stats, and that&#8217;s not worth it here. Just answer me two-ish questions:</p>
<p>1. Are you opposed to conventionally-generated herbicide resistance (like Clearfield)?  Why is that different?</p>
<p>2. Is there any case of a GMO you would ever entertain? What would its criteria be?</p>
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		<title>By: BillF</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/05/24/is-environmentalism-anti-science/#comment-1393</link>
		<dc:creator>BillF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 22:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=1763#comment-1393</guid>
		<description>The real question raised by Keith Kloor&#039;s article is &quot;Why don&#039;t journalists do any independent research anymore?&quot;  His article is the usual collection of biotech industry-sponsored myths, as regurgitated by various know-nothing &quot;experts&quot; like Isobel Coleman. Kloor  ignores both the legitimate scientific objections to genetically engineering food crops, and like most journalists understands nothing about their unsustainability in agricultural terms.

First off, the agricultural side of things.  The past, present and future of ag biotech is pesticide-promoting, herbicide-resistant GM crops.  85% of GM crops worldwide (by acreage) are herbicide-resistant, mostly Monsanto&#039;s Roundup Ready (RR) crops, and herbicides represent 2/3 of pesticide use in the US.  These crops do not increase yield, they do not &quot;feed the world&quot; any better than conventional crops do.  The chief &quot;advantage&quot; of Roundup Ready crops is to help already large farmers get still bigger by reducing labor needs for weed control.  That&#039;s why RR crops are so predominant in industrialized megafarm agricultural systems (North and South America).  Poor farmers cannot afford expensive GM seeds and herbicides that go with them.  For more, see http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/GeneWatch/GeneWatchPage.aspx?pageId=46.

These RR crop systems have dramatically increased Roundup (i.e. glyphosate) use, and thereby fostered an epidemic of glyphosate-resistant weeds.  On the same principle by which overused antibiotics breed resistant bugs.  These resistant weeds are driving development of a host of new GM crops each resistant to one, two, three or more herbicides - as the &quot;solution&quot; to Roundup-resistant weeds.  Weeds are rapidly evolving multiple herbicide resistance, in a futile and toxic chemical arms race.  Entirely unsustainable, but quite profitable for the seed+pesticide=biotech companies.  For how this has increased pesticide use, see http://www.organic-center.org/science.pest.php?action=view&amp;report_id=159.

Dow is poised to introduce crops resistant to 2,4-D, the nasty dioxin-laced weedkiller that formed one component of Agent Orange used in Vietnam to defoliate rainforests.  While 2,4-D was the less toxic of the two components (2,4,5-T was banned in 1978), it still contains appreciable levels of dioxins, which is likely why many epidemiology studies link 2,4-D exposure to higher rates of the deadly immune system cancer non-Hodgkin&#039;s lymphoma (and perhaps other cancers) in farmers.  2,4-D has also shown endocrine disruption effects.  2,4-D corn and soy would dramatically increase use of this toxic weedkiller.  See link to letter from 48 health professionals objecting to 2,4-D crops due to health concerns with vastly increased 2,4-D use: http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/2012/04/26/usda-receives-over-365000-public-comments-opposing-approval-of-24-d-resistant-genetically-engineered-corn/.

13 of 20 GM crops awaiting USDA approval are herbicide-resistant, by far the most active area of biotech-pesticide-seed industry R&amp;D.  See http://www.aphis.usda.gov/biotechnology/not_reg.html.

Oh yeah, did I forget to mention that pesticide companies have bought up about half the proprietary seed supply, patented the seeds, and in the case of Monsanto sued thousands of farmers for committing the &quot;crime&quot; of saving seeds, as farmers have done for millenia?  See Monsanto vs. US Farmers at http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/campaign/genetically-engineered-food/crops/other-resources/monsanto-vs-u-s-farmers-report/.

For some resources on how genetic engineering generates higher risks of harmful changes to food, and how inadequate our regulatory system is, see http://www.biotech-info.net/different_perspective.html and http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/BGER-PAPER.pdf.

Too bad Keith decided not to do any meaningful research for his article, one would have expected better from a professor of journalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real question raised by Keith Kloor&#8217;s article is &#8220;Why don&#8217;t journalists do any independent research anymore?&#8221;  His article is the usual collection of biotech industry-sponsored myths, as regurgitated by various know-nothing &#8220;experts&#8221; like Isobel Coleman. Kloor  ignores both the legitimate scientific objections to genetically engineering food crops, and like most journalists understands nothing about their unsustainability in agricultural terms.</p>
<p>First off, the agricultural side of things.  The past, present and future of ag biotech is pesticide-promoting, herbicide-resistant GM crops.  85% of GM crops worldwide (by acreage) are herbicide-resistant, mostly Monsanto&#8217;s Roundup Ready (RR) crops, and herbicides represent 2/3 of pesticide use in the US.  These crops do not increase yield, they do not &#8220;feed the world&#8221; any better than conventional crops do.  The chief &#8220;advantage&#8221; of Roundup Ready crops is to help already large farmers get still bigger by reducing labor needs for weed control.  That&#8217;s why RR crops are so predominant in industrialized megafarm agricultural systems (North and South America).  Poor farmers cannot afford expensive GM seeds and herbicides that go with them.  For more, see <a href="http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/GeneWatch/GeneWatchPage.aspx?pageId=46" rel="nofollow">http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/GeneWatch/GeneWatchPage.aspx?pageId=46</a>.</p>
<p>These RR crop systems have dramatically increased Roundup (i.e. glyphosate) use, and thereby fostered an epidemic of glyphosate-resistant weeds.  On the same principle by which overused antibiotics breed resistant bugs.  These resistant weeds are driving development of a host of new GM crops each resistant to one, two, three or more herbicides &#8211; as the &#8220;solution&#8221; to Roundup-resistant weeds.  Weeds are rapidly evolving multiple herbicide resistance, in a futile and toxic chemical arms race.  Entirely unsustainable, but quite profitable for the seed+pesticide=biotech companies.  For how this has increased pesticide use, see <a href="http://www.organic-center.org/science.pest.php?action=view&#038;report_id=159" rel="nofollow">http://www.organic-center.org/science.pest.php?action=view&#038;report_id=159</a>.</p>
<p>Dow is poised to introduce crops resistant to 2,4-D, the nasty dioxin-laced weedkiller that formed one component of Agent Orange used in Vietnam to defoliate rainforests.  While 2,4-D was the less toxic of the two components (2,4,5-T was banned in 1978), it still contains appreciable levels of dioxins, which is likely why many epidemiology studies link 2,4-D exposure to higher rates of the deadly immune system cancer non-Hodgkin&#8217;s lymphoma (and perhaps other cancers) in farmers.  2,4-D has also shown endocrine disruption effects.  2,4-D corn and soy would dramatically increase use of this toxic weedkiller.  See link to letter from 48 health professionals objecting to 2,4-D crops due to health concerns with vastly increased 2,4-D use: <a href="http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/2012/04/26/usda-receives-over-365000-public-comments-opposing-approval-of-24-d-resistant-genetically-engineered-corn/" rel="nofollow">http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/2012/04/26/usda-receives-over-365000-public-comments-opposing-approval-of-24-d-resistant-genetically-engineered-corn/</a>.</p>
<p>13 of 20 GM crops awaiting USDA approval are herbicide-resistant, by far the most active area of biotech-pesticide-seed industry R&amp;D.  See <a href="http://www.aphis.usda.gov/biotechnology/not_reg.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.aphis.usda.gov/biotechnology/not_reg.html</a>.</p>
<p>Oh yeah, did I forget to mention that pesticide companies have bought up about half the proprietary seed supply, patented the seeds, and in the case of Monsanto sued thousands of farmers for committing the &#8220;crime&#8221; of saving seeds, as farmers have done for millenia?  See Monsanto vs. US Farmers at <a href="http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/campaign/genetically-engineered-food/crops/other-resources/monsanto-vs-u-s-farmers-report/" rel="nofollow">http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/campaign/genetically-engineered-food/crops/other-resources/monsanto-vs-u-s-farmers-report/</a>.</p>
<p>For some resources on how genetic engineering generates higher risks of harmful changes to food, and how inadequate our regulatory system is, see <a href="http://www.biotech-info.net/different_perspective.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.biotech-info.net/different_perspective.html</a> and <a href="http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/BGER-PAPER.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/BGER-PAPER.pdf</a>.</p>
<p>Too bad Keith decided not to do any meaningful research for his article, one would have expected better from a professor of journalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Nature News Blog: Green groups and scientists in anti-GM battle amid sun, cheese and folk music : Nature News Blog</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/05/24/is-environmentalism-anti-science/#comment-1392</link>
		<dc:creator>Nature News Blog: Green groups and scientists in anti-GM battle amid sun, cheese and folk music : Nature News Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 16:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=1763#comment-1392</guid>
		<description>[...] action had been widely debated in much of the British press and on blogs as researchers feared the beginnings of a revival of the anti-GM activism of the 1990s and [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] action had been widely debated in much of the British press and on blogs as researchers feared the beginnings of a revival of the anti-GM activism of the 1990s and [...] </p>
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		<title>By: m</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/05/24/is-environmentalism-anti-science/#comment-1391</link>
		<dc:creator>m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 14:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=1763#comment-1391</guid>
		<description>I liked this article - but your flippant classification of global warming skeptics smacks of political/journalistic snobbery.

I am a skeptic because not a single solitary GW model can reconcile its *cough cough* &quot;conclusions&quot; with the most fundamental equation in physics.

E=mc2.

It has nothing to do with my politics or closing my mind to &quot;a one world view&quot;.  GW does not exist as a function of man made efforts.   It can&#039;t...unless we embrace the concept of magic.

Sadly - physics communities are often shouted down or have their funding &quot;re-allocated&quot; because GW brings in funding.   Lots and lots of funding.

We, as a society, have reverted to the dark ages in physics.  Pun intended - too many people taking up physics as a science branch out to dark energy/dark matter studies.  

That being said - pollution and contamination - which are FAR different subjects worthy of debate and action - are totally ignorred by the &quot;green nazis&quot;.

As far as Suzuki being trusted - that was a good one.  You looked at the wrong survey - the survey by Ipsos has Suzuki just ahead of Jean Chretien as the least admirable Canadian.

Cheers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I liked this article &#8211; but your flippant classification of global warming skeptics smacks of political/journalistic snobbery.</p>
<p>I am a skeptic because not a single solitary GW model can reconcile its *cough cough* &#8220;conclusions&#8221; with the most fundamental equation in physics.</p>
<p>E=mc2.</p>
<p>It has nothing to do with my politics or closing my mind to &#8220;a one world view&#8221;.  GW does not exist as a function of man made efforts.   It can&#8217;t&#8230;unless we embrace the concept of magic.</p>
<p>Sadly &#8211; physics communities are often shouted down or have their funding &#8220;re-allocated&#8221; because GW brings in funding.   Lots and lots of funding.</p>
<p>We, as a society, have reverted to the dark ages in physics.  Pun intended &#8211; too many people taking up physics as a science branch out to dark energy/dark matter studies.  </p>
<p>That being said &#8211; pollution and contamination &#8211; which are FAR different subjects worthy of debate and action &#8211; are totally ignorred by the &#8220;green nazis&#8221;.</p>
<p>As far as Suzuki being trusted &#8211; that was a good one.  You looked at the wrong survey &#8211; the survey by Ipsos has Suzuki just ahead of Jean Chretien as the least admirable Canadian.</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Science</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/05/24/is-environmentalism-anti-science/#comment-1390</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Science</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 May 2012 15:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/?p=1763#comment-1390</guid>
		<description>Kloor cited South Park in his article.  His research is solid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kloor cited South Park in his article.  His research is solid.</p>
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