How Humans Invented Writing — Four Different Times

By Bridget Alex | December 19, 2018 9:57 am
mesopotamian tablet

Two sides of a tag from ~3,100 BC Mesopotamia describing the transfer of 25 female and 5 male goats. The crossed circle is the symbol for goat, the circles and semicircles represent numbers and the fish symbol indicates a lord involved in the exchange. (Credit: Yale Peabody Museum of Natural History; photo by K. Wagensonner)

About 5,000 years ago, 30 goats changed hands between Sumerians. To record the transaction, a receipt was carved onto a clay tag, about the size of a Post-it. Simple geometric signs represented the livestock and purveyor. The indents of circles and semicircles denoted the quantity exchanged.

Imagine how surprised these people would be to learn their receipt is now held in a museum.

That’s because the tag is one of the earliest texts from the oldest known writing system, Mesopotamian cuneiform, developed around 3,200 BC in the area of present-day Iraq. Like most surviving records from the time, it’s economic in nature, and about as riveting as a checkbook ledger. But the interesting part is not what these early texts said. It’s how they came to be.

These early texts beg the question: How was writing invented?

That question has at least four answers because writing was independently invented at least four times in human history: in ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Mesoamerica. The scripts of these civilizations are considered pristine, or developed from scratch by societies with no exposure to other literate cultures. All other writing systems are thought to be modeled after these four, or at least after the idea of them.

With future research, the number of pristine scripts could decrease, if archaeologists find evidence that any of these cultures copied the idea of writing from one another (most likely Mesopotamia and Egypt, because geography). And the number could grow, if other ancient symbol systems are deciphered and proven to represent true writing. But as it stands, most scholars believe that just these four scripts had independent origins.

The Steps to True Writing

True writing systems use graphic symbols to represent speech unambiguously. They allow literate people to write anything they can say, and have it read just as intended.

tally sticks

Bones from Stone Age sites over 10,000 years old have been found with successive incisions, which some archaeologists argue were tallies, keeping track of events like successful hunts or lunar phases. (Credit: Overmann 2016 Quaternary International 405)

Long before true writing — signs representing speech — people recorded ideas and information in other ways. For instance they drew pictures to depict events or used tallies to keep count of recurrent affairs. And today, long after the emergence of true writing, there are alternative systems like musical notation, mathematical symbols and the cartoon instructions for building IKEA furniture.

These systems convey certain concepts more efficiently or effectively than writing could. But they’re limited to particular kinds of information, and don’t transcribe speech word-for-word. We might (struggle to) build the IKEA desk the same way, but two people wouldn’t use exactly the same words to describe the steps (or expletives to mark the missteps).

Ikea Instructions

Perhaps someday scientists will understand this script.

The revolutionary idea to have signs that represent speech arose in distinct cultures and at different times: around 3,200 BC in Mesopotamia and Egypt,  around 1,200 BC in China and around 400 BC in Mesoamerica. Although the history of these scripts differs, they underwent broadly similar developmental stages.

The oldest surviving texts come from very specific contexts, such as economic transactions in Mesopotamia and divination rituals in China. The first characters were mainly pictographic signs, depicting exactly what they referred to. For example, in ancient Chinese script, “fish” was represented by a recognizable picture of a fish. Some signs were also borrowed from preexisting symbolic systems, such as emblems, tokens and pottery motifs, with which people were already familiar.

cuneiform over time

How cuneiform characters became less iconic and more stylized over time. (Credit: Lawrence Lo)

Over time the iconic characters became more stylized, so they were easier to write but resembled their referent object or action less. That “fish” sign got gradually less fishy, ultimately assuming its present-day form: 魚, a crossed box with a hook on top and four dashes radiating below.

Chinese character fish

How various Chinese characters developed over time to their present-day forms.

In another pivotal step, some characters came to signify sounds, rather than distinct, complete words (though the degree and pace by which phonetic symbols replaced whole-word signs differs between the scripts). This transition was aided by the rebus principle: swapping a word that’s difficult to depict graphically for its homonym, such as using the picture of an “eye” to represent “I”. To help differentiate characters with multiple meanings, the systems also added semantic markers that denoted parts of speech and context clues.

Through centuries of innovation, the scripts eventually advanced to the point of transcribing speech. This propelled writing infinitely beyond its original functions, into a tool capable of recording history, literature and messages — all the content filling our libraries, notes and text files today.

Adopted and modified by neighboring cultures, these scripts persisted for over a millennium. While the systems of Mesopotamia, Egypt and Mesoamerica eventually died out, the Chinese system has remained in continuous use for more than 3,000 years.

That’s the general story of writing, as told by the pristine scripts. Next, we’ll review how their origins differ and what archaeologists have gleaned from the earliest texts.

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  • Rose

    Sumerians were one of the tribes that grew out of the grandsons of Noah.

    • Erik Bosma

      The Sumerians and proto-Sumerians were already around before Noah was said to have existed. Also, the story of the flood was an early Sumerian myth and was, hence, borrowed from them by the writers of the book of Genesis.

      • Rose

        Erik you seem determined to prove you evolved from monkeys.
        That is the sign of a very low IQ.
        Go to your doctor and ask for some Intelligence and Adulting shots.
        FYI all silly Sumerian crap came after The Flood.

        • http://allthingsareyours.wordpress.com/ Heather Goodman

          Rose, if you’re here to try to be a good witness to Christ and to the Bible, you may want to stop insulting people. It makes your testimony ugly in the sight of others.

          • Rose

            Heather..all I do is speak truth. It is surprising how many people see truth as insults.
            It’s all due to the DunningKruger Inferior mentality being unable to see or hear truth .

          • ColleenPatriciaWilliams

            Nope. You are engaging in verbal aggression. You are making a mockery of Christ.

          • Rose

            i don’t mock Christ.

          • ColleenPatriciaWilliams

            Yes, you do. When you use verbal aggression, you mock His words. You are not loving people as He told you to do. You are instead trying to purposely harm them. That is not following Christ.

          • Rose

            Educating is not harming – except in you and Sayan’s world?
            But as Isaiah 5:20 says 20 ‘Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;’

          • StanChaz

            Perfect description of anti-Christ Trump.

          • http://architizer.com//users/ar-neal/ Ar Neal

            It also says “Judge not less ye be judged!” Nuff said!

          • Rose

            I judge you to be a childish fool. Enough said.

          • jonathanpulliam

            You and Rose should start a Circus, or maybe an Inquisition, Torquemada

          • Vlacka2

            Can you do the world a favor and scrub harder “down there” if you ever bathe again? Your stench permeates the internet.

          • Lark62

            With every word you write, you mock your imaginary friend, and remind the world that your myth is nonsense.

          • Rose

            lark,,you really will have to stop taking messages from Satan!

          • Lark62

            LoL

            Satan is make believe, just like your imaginary friend.

            However, these are the 7 Tenets of the Satanic Temple. They are far more moral than anything to come out of christianity.

            – One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.
            – The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
            – One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
            – The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one’s own.
            – Beliefs should conform to one’s best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one’s beliefs.
            – People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one’s best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
            – Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

          • udaya udaya rana

            Sumerian antiquity May be a bogus theory to prop Middle East as we seen in pride of Rose when it comes up

          • jonathanpulliam

            All of you sick Satan-helpers are doing the bidding of the Beast. And the beasts name was Mabus,

          • 7eggert

            Evolution from monkeys is no sign of low IQ. In fact the “punishments” of Adam and Eve are a description of what happened due to evolving from monkeys.

          • Joe Kerr

            WRONG! humans and monkeys share a common ancestor …neither evolved from the other

          • 7eggert

            Nope, current species of monkeys and humans do have a common ancestor, but humans are apes are monkeys.

          • Joe Kerr

            WRONG!!! stop being stupid!!!

          • Joe Kerr

            WRONG!!!! try to get a coherent adult to explain reality to you

          • 7eggert

            Multiple exclamation marks,’ he went on, shaking his head, ‘are a sure sign of a diseased mind.
            — Terry Pratchett, in Eric

          • jonathanpulliam

            She had Benedict Donald explain it to her. He never got past “dee-de-dee!”

          • Rose

            lol..7omelettes your IQ is that of an omelette.

          • ColleenPatriciaWilliams

            There you are, again disobeying Christ. You have a lot of meanness issues you need to repent and work on.

          • skinnercitycyclist

            Oh, the irony of you citing Dunning-Kruger!

          • Binta

            You’re such a smug loser.

          • skinnercitycyclist

            I AM smug! You got it half right, about half more than usual!

          • Rose

            but DK Inferiors like yourself cannot understand higher things – so I have to talk down to you – just like talking to a child?

          • skinnercitycyclist

            Do it! Talk down to me! Beat me, whip me, eat a page of the Bible and then smear me with your feces!

          • 7eggert

            Most arguments science vs. religion are fueled by both sides being in the DK range of knowledge about both science and religion.

            You can neither proof the existence nor the non-existence of God. Both sides reason that the absence of a counter-proof to their position would be a proof of them being wrong. But only agnosticism is scientifically correct.

            OTOH, you can prove that a positive religion helps being a decent human and prolongs life. So if you intend to be decent, you can as well believe in God and get a bonus chance for an afterlife – or at least train yourself to be more decent. If you find another way to do the same – I don’t mind.

          • skinnercitycyclist

            Nope, DK does not in fact apply to MY argument, as all I assert about any god which has been presented to me is that its proponents have failed to convince me of its existence. I make no claims other than that.

          • 7eggert

            I’m rather generally speaking and addressing people who claim that science did give us the ultimate truth. It didn’t, and the amount we don’t know is a bigger leap of faith than believing in the real Santa Claus from North Pole. (Yet we know that science does a good job and Santa needs some help.)

          • john tucci

            As I said before Rose, people do not want to hear the truth.

          • http://architizer.com//users/ar-neal/ Ar Neal

            Or perhaps we are offended by the fact that you’re trying to introduce magical thinking into a scientific discussion. Therein lies the rub.

          • Rose

            Stop rubbing that magic lamp that tells you you are evolved from monkeys,.

          • jonathanpulliam

            Are you kidding?? Why didn’t you mention that to the Babylonian Succubus. Live your faith, creepy!

          • James R. Gray

            Heather, I agree.
            I consider myself to be a Christian and Rose embarrasses me.

        • Framinghammer

          Nope. If you believe in biblical chronology and the reality of its mythical stories, then Noah’s Flood occurred about 4500 years ago. Sumerian writing began over 5200 BP.

          The flood myth is Sumerian in origin.

          • Rose

            once again a neanderthal speaks gibberish.

          • Framinghammer

            Rose,

            Clearly, your fact-free spew shows you an expert in gibberish.

            Where do Neanderthals fit into your lunatic alternative universe, in which Earth emerged from primordial waters some 6000 years ago, and in which day and night and green plants were created before the Sun and in which stars fall to Earth?

          • Rose

            I stated quite a few facts but to a neanderthal there are incomprehensible.
            keep on believing you evolved from a Sumerian neandertahl.

          • Framinghammer

            You stated not a single fact. You falsely asserted without a scrap of evidence that Sumerian writing began after the mythical Noah. Wrong! As shown by all the evidence.

          • Lucius_Severus_Pertinax

            It amazes me that some people STILL buy into the Cosmology of a bunch of Itinerate, Asiatic, Bronze-Age Goat-herders!

          • Bob Kaczynski

            Actually Neanderthals IQ was not low, yours is

          • Rose

            Actually MENSA – heard of it? – says the opposite which is why I know how worms prove Earth is young.

          • Rose

            MENSA says my IQ is so much higher than peole like you that practically everything I say is above your understanding – but I keep on trying to educate you.

          • Bob Kaczynski

            Yeah mensa test you take is from back of an Archive comic book you dumb,dumb abortion

          • Danny Foote

            Rose, you misread the society you belong to. It is DENSA that you are a member in good standing. Glad to help!

          • Rose

            FannyDoot…

          • Bob Kaczynski

            You got mensa score from back cover of an ARCHIE comic book. Idiot,

          • 7eggert

            21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

          • Rose

            7eggs…you have heard it said from old times ‘why do fools choose silly names.’
            FYI ‘in danger’ does not mean terminal danger. this may be above your level of undestanding.

          • 7eggert

            I’ve heard: A rose, when equipped with fingers, is just as smart

          • Rose

            once again a neanderthal speaks gibberish.

          • Vlacka2

            Still not in “heaven”? That’s a shame.

          • 7eggert

            Maybe you should evolve.

          • http://www.id1127995.sexythst.website beckysimmer

            7eggert already read

          • 7eggert

            If you claim that the biblical chronology is to be used, the Sumerian flood would have occurred later for the consistency of your argument.

            Otherwise you may claim that the chronology is off. That’s something many people would agree on.

        • ColleenPatriciaWilliams

          No. You are definitely NOT displaying Christ like behavior. You are actually acting rather satanic. Not cool.

        • jonathanpulliam

          Rose you are one sick puppy. You need major-league meds. Get help.

      • 7eggert

        There are more floods presumed to be THE flood than I care to count. Gilgamesh is just one of them.

      • Lorie Franceschi

        Most civilizations have a story of the great flood.

    • BeamMeUp

      According to genesis, Noah was a 600-year-old man who built an ark and brought on 2 of every animal (another passage mentions he brought on 7 of every clean animal and 2 of every unclean animal). Either way, he forgot to bring on dinosaurs. This was after a male deity, not satisfied with the handiwork he had created in 6 days, decides to commit global genocide by causing it to rain 40 days and 40 nights.

      I know this is off-topic on the origin of writing, but I couldn’t resist taking a jab at the Noah/flood nonsense.

      • Rose

        lots of dinosaurs on the ark . probably still around today just there are giant crocodiles…

        • Framinghammer

          So on your home planet, crocociles evolved from dinosaurs? As for Earth, crocodilians are related to dinosaurs, but the surviving dinosaurs are birds. And there was no room on the Ark for non-avian dinosaurs and the tens of hundreds of millions of other extinct large terrestrial animal species from the past hundreds of millions of years.

          Let alone food for them and the work required by eight people in caring for them. Nor of course would it have been possible for American, Australian or oceanic island species even to get to Noah’s Ark.

          • Rose

            Fragmentedremnant. I didn’t say crocs evolved in dinosaurs or vide verse…that’s your silly Planet of Apes mentality tricking you.
            And you are so childish you will not read any of the careful calculations about the sze and carrying capacity of the Ark because you know it will make you feel stupid.
            That is the mark of the childish mind.
            Stay in that dark smoky cage and leave the science to Christians.

          • Framinghammer

            Rose,

            I’m positive that the Ark could not possibly have housed even all species alive 4500 years ago, let alone the tens or hundreds of millions which were extinct by then.

            Again, all you do assert ludicrous claims without a shred of evidence. You’re a joke.

          • Rose

            Ramingdinger..gain, all you do assert ludicrous claims without a shred of evidence. You’re a joke.
            Give us some evidence for you evolving from monkeys.
            Why can’t you woman-up and look at a few flash flood videos to see how all the dinosaurs got buried?
            Immaturities like you just daren’t look at the evidence.

          • Framinghammer

            Rose,

            All the evidence in the world shows that humans not only evolved from apes, but that we are apes. Not monkeys.

            Do you seriously imagine that all dinosaur fossils were laid down in a single flood? Explain then please why their fossils are found from rocks 240 to 66 million years old. Also, why marine layers are intersperced with the terrestrial layers?

            Further, please also explain all the other animal species over the past 700 million years in their own rock layers.

            Thanks!

          • Rose

            well, as soon as you watch a few flash flood videos you would understand everything – but your childish mind cannot grasp that logic and so you parrot childish nonsense such as 700Y when there is no way of dating anything beyond a few thousand years – just as the Bible records.
            Your head is stuffed with Planet of Apes garbage and you thin that makes you clever but it just shows you are stupid.

          • Framinghammer

            We have many dating methods with high accuracy and precision.

            You have been lied to by professional liars who blaspheme against God. You aren’t a Christian but an idolatress of a false god, sadistic, deceptive and incompetent.

            Our genome contains 19,000 demonstrations of our descent from other apes, our anatomy, embryology, biochemistry and every other form of evidence yet more.

            Our large chromsome #2 resulted from the fusion of two smaller, standard great ape chromosomes, which why the other great apes have 24 pairs but we only 23.

          • Rose

            lol Frilamentaeous algae!
            You quote GOD while promoting Satan!
            So typical of people with heads full of Planet of Apes nonsense.
            Presumably you have a Bible so look at Genesis 2:6 and 9:12 and see if your microbe brain can spot the connection that proves Earth is just about 6,000 yerars old and there can be no evolution – except on Planet of Apes.
            You won’t be able to spot the link because your friend Satan has dimmed your eyes and blocked your ears.

          • Framinghammer

            Rose,

            Those verses have no bearing upon evolution. Ancient myths can’t “disprove” a scientific fact, ie an observation of nature.

            God is known through His works. His alleged word was written by people trying to understand Him.

            Even John Calvin knew that the first creation story in Genesis 1 couldn’t possibly be literally true, since Earth is a sphere suspended in space, not a flat surface covered by a dome, with waters above and below it.

            The second, Adam and Eve myth, in Genesis 2, is also impossible and irreconcilably contradicts the first, Six Day story.

            The Flood myth clearly came in two versions, which the editor of Genesis texts simply stuck together, which is why one passage says two of each species and another says two each of unclean animals and seven (or seven pairs) of clean ones.

            Either way, there would not be enough room on the Ark for all the terrestrial and flying beasts of 4500 years ago, let alone all extinct animals, as noted.

          • Rose

            keep watching those planet of apes ‘documentaries’.

          • Framinghammer

            The fact that humans are apes, primates, mammals, tetrapods, vertebrates, animals and eukaryotes has nothing whatsoever to do with movies and everything to do with objective reality.

            You just can’t handle the obvious truth.

          • Rose

            Stick to hammering sixpenny nails and leave the science to those who know it.

          • Framinghammer

            Rose,

            Clearly you wouldn’t know science if it ran you over.

            I’ll leave the fantasy to you and stick to objective reality. Which is that there was no mythical global flood, whether 4500, 5000 or 5500 years ago, cooked up to explain the rainbow, before people understood physics and the hydrologiccal cycle, and before they had a clue how many species there are in the world.

            Yet all the actual evidence on Earth shows that some 63 million years ago (Ma), primates split between haplorhines (anthropoids and tarsiers) and strepsirrhines (lemurs, lorises, etc). Then the nocturnal, insectivorous tarsiers diverged from the anthropoids (or simians), followed around 40 Ma by the platyrrhines (New World “monkeys”) separating from the catarrhines (represented today by so-called Old World “monkeys and apes).

            About 25 Ma, stem catarrhines evolved into today’s two crown superfamilies, the aforementioned OWMs (Cercopithecoidea, ie “tailed ape”) and apes (Hominoidea). Apes grew generally larger, evolving to swing from branch to branch rather than crawling along them, and lost their tails.

            Later, lesser and great apes diverged, and some cercopiths also lost their eponymous tails.

            You have fallen for Satanic creationist lies, hook, line and sinker. God is not the sadistic, deceptive, incompetent monster which bibliolators imagine.

          • Rose

            Ramingspammer.
            I gave you plenty of real science but it is so far above your level of understanding that you cannot accept it.
            Stick to watching your Planet of Apes movies and ignore the simple demonstrable truth: THAT WORMS PROVE EARTH IS ABOUT 6,000 YEARS OLD!
            I’ll give you a real nugget of science: GOD designed Earth to be gently heated by piezo-electricity.
            You don’t know anything about worms or p.e so I’ll leave you to eat you monkeys nuts as you swing about the fairy tales of evolution.

          • Framinghammer

            Rose,

            You’ve provided nothing that a sane person woudl consider even remotely related to actual science.

            Your brain has been stolen and soul enslaved by Satanists. Do you really consider your comments to be worthy of a truly believing Christian?

            Please wake up! Reality is much more wonderful than the lies which you have swallowed.

          • Rose

            You don’t know any Christians so how would you know?

          • Lark62

            Hey, be nice. In the Bible, Satan is the one who told the truth. It isn’t Satan who stole her brain. It is people, real live honest to goodness humans, who taught Rose to ignore reason and evidence.

            The Satanic Temple (non theistic – they do not believe in any supernatural beings) has 7 tenets. One of which is Beliefs should conform to one’s best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one’s beliefs.

            You won’t find that in christianity or any major religion.

          • Framinghammer

            You’re right. Some of my comments in exasperation were un-Christian.

          • Lark62

            Exasperation is fully undersrandable.

          • Framinghammer

            The vast majority of Christians belong to denominations which accept the reality of modern science, and that it’s always subject to revision. The Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches and most Protestant denominations now recognize, among others, the facts that Earth is a sphere some 4.56 billion years old, a planet going around the Sun, that we breath oxygen, that germs cause disease and that humans and all other living things have evolved.

          • Framinghammer

            As for worms, as with all else, you could not possibly be more wrong. The first bilaterians date from the Ediacaran, ie over 560 Ma, almost 100,000 times longer ago than your raving lunatic 6000 years.

          • Rose

            560 ma…hmmm that’s about 559,994,000 years out as Earth was only created by GOD about 6,000 years ago.
            The Ediacaran as you call it was actually the lifeless sea be onto which GOD put creepie crawlies to creep around eating and recycling all the detritus He knew woudl flow into the single sea from all the vegetation and the creatures He intended to put on Earth.
            Basic science is so far above your level of Planet of Apes indoctrination isn’t it?
            It must be weird living with a low IQ like yours?

          • Odd Jørgensen

            ah, so you`re A Idiot, that explains a lot.

          • Rose

            Orgenjeddon…you must have been looking in a mirror when you typed that?

          • Odd Jørgensen

            I`m so terribly sorry, it seems you are not A Idiot, just a rather slow child. I`m rubber you`re glue, straight out of kindergarten. You do you girl, eventually you will grow out of it.

          • Rose

            LOL> In Cambridge there are plenty of Satanists in all the temples – go join them in worshipping your god Satan the Deceiver.

          • Framinghammer

            PS: As to six-penny nails, I’m a paleontologist from Framingham, MA, who works in Cambridge.

          • Lark62

            But, but, but Rose listened to an creationist preach one Sunday morning and posts on the internet, so clearly she knows more than an expert with one or more relevant degrees who presumably has studied paleontology his/her entire career.

            /snark

            Cambridge Mass? If I recall, there are one or two moderately famous universities there-abouts.

            PS I’m jealous. I majored in business and was in my 40s before I realized how absolutely fascinating science is. Kiss a fossil for me.

          • jonathanpulliam

            Harvard/CIA is one such Chad & Buffy mill. The first building at Harvard, to have a stone foundation, the Harvard Indian School was founded in 1650 and conceived to permit the Colonists to utilize the newly innovative Contract Law to separate the Native Massachusett Indians from their vast and desirable land holdings.

          • Lark62

            Whatever. But when wanting to learn about evolution or any other scientific topic, I will still rely on a scientist from Harvard or any other major university and not someone who thinks a book of iron age myths (complete with a talking donkey) represents reality.

          • jonathanpulliam

            As you say, “whatever”.

          • Rose

            LOL. You are a fool who daren’t watch a flash flood video because he knows it will rubbish everything you had to swallow to get that silly degree in Belief in Satan’s Lies.
            Watch some flash flood videos and try figure out how TRex are fuelling volcanoes.

          • Lark62

            Volcanoes result from the heat generated by plate tectonics and other global processes.

            Dinosaurs do not “fuel” volvanoes.

          • Rose

            LOL The obvious truth is monkeys is monkeys and humans is humans.
            Just consider some simple facts?
            Monkeys have hairy bodies and crewcuts?
            Humans have long hair and practically bald heads?
            Monkeys have very useful thumbs on their back feet while we humans have big toes which do not much more than wiggle?
            How do you explain these obvious differences in DNA?

          • Framinghammer

            Rose,

            Before you presume to comment on a subject, you really ought to study it. I see that you are as ignorant of genetics as of the rest of biology, astronomy, chemistry, geology and physics.

            Genes are protein coding sequences of the genome. Other seqences control the production of proteins.

            Chimps and humans have the same number of follicles on our bodies. That our hair grows short and theirs long is down to the control genes’ cutting off production of hair protein sooner.

            We evolved shorter body hair when we adopted a lifestyle requiring running on sunny grasslands rather than hanging out in forests all the time. It’s part of the elaborate cooling system which we evolved, including evaporation from sweat glands.

            You can’t understand the world without science, in this case the fact of evolution.

            Religious faith is another matter. Christianity isn’t about the untenable belief in a literal and inerrant Bible. The greatest theologians, founders of all Christian denominations, recognized that parts of the Bible, whichever books are included in whatever version, are not literally true.

            Stars do not fall to earth and aren’t people. The heavenly host doesn’t sing together. Green plants did not appear before the sun. Earth isn’t flat and covered by a solid dome, with the sun going over it. It doesn’t have waters above it and below it, but the near vacuum of space.

            God doesn’t personally open and close the storehouses of rain and snow. He did not lay the foundations of the earth, setting it immobile upon pillars.

            Rabbits don’t chew their cud, but their excrement. It’s simply insane to imagine that the Bible is literally true with respect to science.

          • Rose

            LOL Rimmingframer and his Cambridge MA in Planet of Aperies!
            Genetics like as what gives hoomans the same skeelton as tortoises?
            Go back to your childish belief in monkey to hooman evononsenses.

          • Framinghammer

            Rose,

            My degrees don’t matter. Only what can be shown based upon evidence matters.

            But I have a doctorate. Mentioning the focus of my research would make it possible to ID me.

            The chelonian skeleton is a remarkable adaptation, but we know the steps in its evolution, as demonstrated by fossils, embryological development and genetics.

            The human skeleton is a less drastic adaptation of the basic tetrapod Bauplan, but still with some notable elements.

            All the evidence in the world shows the fact of evolution, with none against it. Not a shred.

          • Rose

            Wow! Gene codings! So no doubt you’ve figured out how those gene codes evolved on those dry rocks sterilised at the million degrees you were told the BigBang was? And with heat like that where did the water come from to start the rocks fermenting genes? Did some of those monkeys from Planet of Apes pee on the rocks?
            Talk about dreaming spires…more like fantasizing spires?

          • Framinghammer

            Rose,

            Biological evolution is the process of developing new species and other changes in already existing life forms. It’s not about the origin of life or the genetic code as knwon on Earth.

            There were no rocks or water at the time of the hypothesized Big Bang. For DNA and RNA to develop obviously first took the synthesis of elements above hydrogen in the periodic table. Nucleic acids are composed of hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and phosphorus, all made inside stars, which didn’t form until long after the Big Bang.

            The constituent compounds of nucleic acids, lipids, amino acids and other biomolecules self-assemble under various conditions, to include in the pockets of water within ice. This happens both in outer space, as we know from meteorites, and on Earth.

            Precisely how RNA developed from these simpler components, and whether it did so on Earth or in space, aren’t yet known. But that chemical evolution preceded biological evolution is clear.

          • john tucci

            “aren’t yet known” which constitutes “belief” you do know that for a species to change to another species requires additional information to be inserted into the existing Genome? This has never been achieved in the Lab, let alone by chance.

          • john tucci

            Chimps have 24 sets of Chromosomes, we have 23 sets of chromosomes. Scientists agree that the magnetic shield around the Earth is diminishing at a fixed rate, if we reverse that rate then about ten thousand years ago the rate would have been so high that NOTHING could survive. The same scientists say that in about a thousand years time, nothing will be alive because the magnetic shield would be too weak to protect life on EARTH, so much for the millions of years theory.

          • Framinghammer

            Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes and chimps, gorillas and orangutans 24. Two small great ape chromosomes fused to produce our large #2.

            What scientists say that? Earth is about 4.5 billion years old, and has been hospitable to life for around 4 billion. That’s not a theory but a fact, i.e. An observation.

          • john tucci

            Update, 29 August 2014: recently, geophysicist David Stevenson
            at the California Institute of Technology admitted the problems that
            the earth’s magnetic field poses for long-age dogma:

            Right at this moment, there is a problem with our
            understanding of Earth’s core and it’s something that’s emerged only
            over the last year or two. The problem is a serious one. We do not know
            understand how the Earth’s magnetic field has lasted for billions of
            years. We know that the Earth has had a magnetic field for most of its
            history. We don’t know how the Earth did that. We have less of an
            understanding now than we previously thought we had a decade ago of how
            the Earth’s core has operated throughout history.

          • earl davis

            And for creationists like you, do keep on watching your favorite documentary, The Flintstones, obvious “proof” that dinos/humans “coexisted”. Ah, yes along with what ranks as “scientific proof” for that in creo/IDist-verse such as the Loch Ness Monster, King George slaying the dragon (other dragon myths, really absolutely accurate historical fact, eh, Rose?).

          • StanChaz

            In this context a “Rose” by any other name would still smell like a load of crap.

            What I don’t understand is why people even bother to engage with this obvious troll and feed her ego while wasting their time and energy.
            She (if she truly is a she) obviously LOVES the attention.
            Simply ignore her taunts and her ridiculous assertions & provocations and she’ll soon shrivel into a pile of irrelevant dust like the Wicked Witch of the West….

          • john tucci

            You talking about carbon n14 which supports a young Earth? You do realize that a creature that has ” Evolved” from another creature would have had to have “extra” information in the DNA to achieve that but this has NEVER been proven to happen.

          • Framinghammer

            You, sir, are a mine of misinformation. You’ve fallen for the lies of professional liars.

            I’m not talking about 14C dating. You can’t compute the age of the Earth from 14C, which only works back to about 50,000 years ago. To date the solar system, you need uranium-lead decay.

            DNA changes all the time. How can it not? Humans are born with on average four mutations and accumulate more during our lives. If they’re in germ cell lines, they can be passed on.

            What do you imagine causes pathogenic microbes to acquire drug resistance but changes in their DNA?

            How about deleterious mutations such as Down’s Syndrome? That’s caused by the gross chromosomal mutation Trisomy 21, ie a third chromosome strand on #21. It’s not lethal, as are most other trisomies, because there are so few genes on Chromosome 21.

            Other mutations are neutral or beneficial. A formerly negative mutation can become beneficial under changed conditions. Before nylon entered the microbial environment, the deletion mutation which turns sugar-eating bacteria into nylon-eaters was always deadly to that microbe line.

            Whole genome duplication is common, which provides lots of material on which evolution can work. Evolution results from reproduction.

          • john tucci

            One of the few radiometric dating methods that gives consistently
            reliable results when tested on objects of known age is carbon dating.
            But carbon dating confirms the biblical timescale of thousands of
            years. It never gives age estimates of billions or even millions of
            years – even on things evolutionists believe to be very old like coal
            and diamonds. Carbon dating of dinosaur remains confirms their biblical
            age of thousands of years. When we understand the science, we find
            that radiometric dating actually confirms the biblical account of
            history.

          • john tucci

            A few years ago, a scientist found soft tissue complete with intact blood vessels inside a Dinosaur bone that was supposed to be millions of years old but because of this finding science tells us that this bone could not be more than one thousand years old, please explain.

          • Ronnie Childs

            Rose, may I ask you a question, please? Do you really have an imaginary daddy who lives in the sky, or are you just trolling? It’s okay if you troll–I do it myself sometimes. Thank you, and Merry Saturnalia.

          • Rose

            connirilds…any plans to grow up and outgrow that male sneer?

          • bomadisqus

            I’m guessing the flash flood videos claim that the fossils are deposited in layers based on either the animals’ densities or intelligences – the dumbest ones got buried first while smarter ones moved to higher areas before getting buried. I’ve seen pseudoscience videos with both explanations, and they are 100% nonsense. Deposition of sedimentary layers and fossilization are well understood processes, and those explanations simply don’t fit the way the world actually works.

          • Rose

            domabisqit…so you won’t look at flash floods in case you have to face unpleasant truths that rubbish everything you believe?

          • bomadisqus

            Don’t bother arguing with Rose. She is brainwashed. Any evidence we present she will dismiss as fake, and any proofs that her beliefs are nonsense will be met with insults. When you believe in magic and miracles, you can conjure up any and all explanations: an all powerful creator could make a young universe and young earth look old; he could lay the fossils in a certain order; he could create fossils for species that never even existed; he could use DNA, embryological development, homologous structures, and biogeography in a way that makes it look like evolution happened; he could miracle all of those species onto the ark and make it so they live without needing food or water, without pooping, and without killing each other; he could do ANYTHING. She believes what she does because it makes her feel good, and feel superior. Like most bullies, deep down, she is probably insecure – she accepts the proofs of pseudoscientists and charlatans because it gives her comfort and bolsters her beliefs. She sees that society is moving away from her mythology, and it scares her. So she comes on here and screams into the wind. Poor Rose… you have my pity.

          • Framinghammer

            You’re right.

            Dumb of me to imagine that reality could possibly penetrate her most un-Christian dense defenses of desired darkness and willful delusion.

          • bomadisqus

            I had an uncle who used to say that the ark was a miracle that acted like a bag of holding from D&D – it had a magical interior that was as large as it needed to be to hold all the animals. I also had a friend growing up who claimed that the animals all shrunk to tiny sizes to fit onto the ark. When you believe in magic, you can make up whatever BS you want to make yourself feel good.

          • Framinghammer

            Since magic is required at each stage of the myth, why not just destroy all the people and leave the microbes, fungi, plants and other animals unflooded?

            Lack of space on the Ark is almost the least of the problems with taking the story literally.

            How did non-flying animals get from islands and Australia to Noah’s home in Mesopotamia? Then back again after the floood? Did God make rafts for them? What did koalas and tarsiers eat en route?

            Where did the flood waters come from and where did they go? Doubtful even most marine and aquatic species could survive having three times as much water as in all of today’s oceans.

            What did herbivores eat once the flood receded, all terrestrial plant life having died? The carnivores could eat the herbivores, but then there wouldn’t be any today, their ancestors having been devoured.

            A moment’s reflection is all it takes to realize that the ancient myth to “explain” the rainbow can’t possibly be literally true.

          • john tucci

            Did it ever occur to you that the “world” flood was actually contained in the middle east as the writers would have no knowledge of Australia or the Americas, so the reality could be that the flood was only in “:their world”, after all the purpose of the flood was to punish the sinners of Sodom and Gomohra.

          • Framinghammer

            Apparently you’ve never read the Bible, which I find to be a common failing among Young Earth Creationists, who prefer the lies of YEC spewers over reading the Bible and thinking for themselves.

            Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire and brimstone (Genesis 18-19) long after Noah’s Flood (Genesis 6-9).

            Please explain how the mythical Flood could possibly have been contained in the Middle East, which is not a bowl. Genesis says that the waters covered the highest mountains. Mt. Ararat’s elevation is 16,854 feet.

            But even if somehow the floodwaters covered only that region, then whence did they come and where did they go?

            How could eight people feed and care for two to seven of all land anmials for 370 days, even on the biggest wooden ship of all time? The mammals and birds would eat many times their own weight in that time.

            Please use your brain rather than regurgitate the obvious lies of professional liars.

          • john tucci

            I did not admit that Genesis is not the word of God, please do not put words in my mouth. I do remember the flood was created to punish the wicked as for where the waters came from and where did they go, that little trick would not be difficult for someone that created the Universe, as for caring for the animals, I am sure there was divine intervention involved with that. I am still waiting for you to tell me how a millions of years old Dinosaur bone still had soft tissue in it complete with intact blood vessels, perhaps the dating method is flawed, ya think?

          • john tucci

            It’s been eleven days and still no reply to my question. Let me ask you AGAIN— how could a millions of years Dinosaur bone have soft tissue and intact blood vessels?

          • Framinghammer

            I’ve given you the answer twice. My replies are apparently blocked, maybe because I linked to the actual scientific papers involved.

            The scientist involved is Mary Schweitzer. Unlike you, she’s an actual Christian.

            The answer to the fake question fed you by creationist liars against God is iron.

            Since links seemingly aren’t allowed, Google “Schweitzer iron dinosaur soft tissue”.

            The scientist, Schweitzer, who discovered T. rex soft tissue also explained how it was preserved.

            You need to realize that you’ve been lied to by shameless blasphemers.

          • john tucci

            No she did NOT explain how it was preserved. The only liars here are the “Evolutionists”. Give me one example of fish to man observable Evolution today.

          • Framinghammer

            Now you’re lying, too. You can’t be a creationist without lying or regurgitating the lies of paid, professional liars.

            You failed to mention the key explanation of Schweitzer’s team, ie the discovery that iron can act as a preservative, like formaldehyyde, when a carcass is buried quickly and largely intact.

            Her language in the secondary section to which you refer is simply the language of science, which deals with testable hypotheses, not usually with certainty.

            Evolution occurs all the time. For fish to evolve into land animals today would probably require the extinction of most terrestrial vertebrates (tetrapods) and their aquatic and maritime descendants, since ecologiical niches on land are occupied. Yet there are fish currently evolving to live on land part of the time, like mudskippers.

            Major transitions take time. From fish to man was about 375 million years. However, if present fully marine mammals, ie whales and sea cows (manatees and dugongs), suddenly went extinct, then pinnipeds (seals, walruses and sea lions) and sea otters might evolve to fill vacant whale niches and hippos sea cows’. Whale evolution went through a seal-like stage.

            Pinnipeds evolved in the bear and dog line of Order Carnivora, and sea otters from the weasel line. Nothing stops them from continuing to evolve. The direction that evolution takes depends upon environmental events.

            Marine reptiles evolved repeatedly, as have mammals. When ichthyosaurs declined, mosasaurs evolved from lizards to replace them in the Late Cretaceous. Placental mammals are preadapted for maritime life, since we already give live birth.

            That humans would evolve from lobe-fins, relatives of today’s lungfish, was not ordained. Events in Earth’s history put selective pressure on lobe-finned fish to move onto land, on ancient amphibians to evolve shelled eggs, becoming the ancestors or reptiles and mammals, on monotreme mammals to evolve into marsupials and placentals, on arboreal placentals to evolve into primates, on primates into apes and on apes to humans, over hundreds of millions of years.

            The same evolutionary processes are still at work now. Since there is no preordained end state, only future events will decide how evolution proceeds. The results aren’t predictable, although we can speculate.

          • john tucci

            “from fish to man was about 375 million years ago”— Were you there to see that happen? Of course not, so how do you know it happened, “belief ” maybye. —“might evolve” is another “belief” statement. You talk about all these animals that “evolved from one species to another millions of years ago but did you see it happen? No? for Science to be Science it has to be “OBSERVED” Did you “see” all that Evolution? As for mudskippers, they were always mudskippers. You say Evolution is at work now, so give me ONE example of that, by that I mean one species changing into another species which would require ADDITIONAL information inserted into the existing genome which by the way has NEVER been achieved in the LAB let alone by chance. The story of Evolution is the greateast lie ever.

          • Framinghammer

            No lies. Just the facts, ie scientific observations, and necessary conclusions therefrom. By contrast, creationists need to lie shamelessly, as you did by not mentioning Dr. Schweitzer’s lab’s discovery of preservation by iron.

            Shouting doesn’t mean that you have anything worth saying.

            If you drive past the scene of a car wreck after it happened, how do you know it did?

            Same with evolution from lobe-finned fish to humans. And from single-celled colonial eukaryotes to sponges, and from sponges to radially symmetrical animals to bilaterians to chordates to vertebrates to lobe-finned fish.

            We see the process in the rocks, in our genes, anatomy, embryological development and every other line of evidence. The inference is inescapable. No other scientific explanation for the observations is possible. If you have one, please present it.

            Thanks.

          • john tucci

            I use caps for emphasis not shouting. My explanation is God. What is YOUR explanation of one species changing into another species. I already told you that it is not possible unless you ADD information to the existing genome which has NEVER been achieved in the lab, let alone by chance, THAT is a scientific fact, Give me ONE example of you observing that it has happened.

          • Framinghammer

            John,

            All caps is shouting on the Internet.

            You seem to suffer from a learning disability. You keep repeating the same lies no matter how many times I try to educate you.

            I’ve repeatedly shown you that nothing is easier than adding new genetic information. It happens continuously. The entire genetic engineering industry is based upon this fact. New mutations arise naturally daily, via many mechanisms producing nucleobase deletions, additions, substitutions and duplications.

            Nor are new genes, i.e. protein coding sequences, required for new species to evolve, which development is observed all the time, in the wild and the lab. Among the many I cited is the creation of nylon-eating bacteria from sugar-eating microbes by a single point mutation, a nucleobase deletion.

            God is not a scientific explanation. He is a supernatural belief. The point of science is natural explanations.

          • john tucci

            And yet you have not given one example of a change of species, I have not seen your citations, Mutations do not add information to create a new species, don’t babble on, just give me one example of observable evolution from one species to another.

          • Framinghammer

            I’ve given you numerous examples, and have shown that of course mutations add new information.

            Since you keep repeating the same lies, no matter how many times I instruct you in observed reality, it is pointless to continue casting pearls of truth before you.

            But I’ll once again point to the simplest mutation possible providing genetic innovation leading to a new species, by citing the evolution of new microbial species eating nylon rather than sugar. The cause of this speciation is a single point mutation.

            It takes more mutations to turn a sap-sucking insect into a blood-sucker, but the responsible changes in the genome have also been observed.

            You just can’t handle the truth that evolution is a fact observed daily. You can deny it only by remaining willfully ignorant and swallowing the lies of shameless professional blasphemers, who turn you into their deluded, lying imp as well.

          • 7eggert

            Being an ape while not being a monkey is impossible.

          • Framinghammer

            No, it isn’t. Quite the opposite. Apes did not evolve from monkeys. Apes and Old World monkeys evolved at the same time from a common cattarhine primate ancestor, which was neither an ape nor a monkey.

            Apes and OWMs are both members of Parvorder Cattarhini. Their sister parvorder within Infraorder Simiiformes is Plathyrrhini, the New World Monkeys.

          • Mr Vanbuilderass

            Why do otherwise intelligent people insist on bringing phylogenetic definitions into unrelated discussions? It makes you look silly in front of the creationists.
            Yes under phylogenetics fish are monkeys are apes are humans but in a discussion about Noah and Mesopotamia why is it necessary to bring that up? It makes you sound ridiculous and it’s an abuse of language.
            If I say monkey you have an image in your mind of a monkey. You don’t picture Walter Cronkite even though he was a monkey too. I know what an ape is and when I talk about apes you assume I’m not talking about humans or monkeys.
            This is the kind of snooty intellectualism that makes people wary and distrustful of science. Showing off how smart you are in front of the Bible thumpers doesn’t impress anyone.

          • 7eggert

            Taking the side of science while not knowing science begs for being corrected.

          • Joe Kerr

            WRONG try again

          • Mr Vanbuilderass

            What am I wrong about?

          • Joe Kerr

            WRONG!!!! the evidence shows a common ancestor not that “we” evolved from apes or monkeys… seriously if youre going to call others ignorant then you should at least get your own facts straight

          • Framinghammer

            I don’t know to what it is that you object.

            The fact is that humans are apes, who evolved from catarrhine primates in the Miocene Epoch.

            Please state more specifically what it is that you find “wrong” with this fact.

          • Framinghammer

            Joe,

            You’re in need of facts.

            Of course humans and other apes share a common ancestor with “monkeys”. But the issue is, was that ancestor itself a “monkey”, or an anthropoid (simian) primate also ancestral to “monkeys”.

            “Monkey” is not a valid taxon, since it’s paraphyletic. It’s a common, not scientific, term applied to two different clades (Old and New World monkeys), to the exclusion of another clade, ie apes, which should be included in order for it to be monophyletic.

            Science already has two valid terms for the clade including “monkeys”, apes and their ancestors since the split with tarsiers, ie anthropoid or simian. Calling all simians “monkeys” just adds a common term to two already perfectly acceptable scientific taxonomic names, so is pointless.

          • Joe Kerr

            Wrong again dummy… youre conflating due to excessive ego…try again

          • Framinghammer

            Joe,

            I see you rated your own comment up. I’m surprised that that’s allowed. But maybe I shouldn’t be, given the decline of standards in our country.

          • Joe Kerr

            LIAR… didn’t up vote myself… try again

          • Joe Kerr

            nope

          • john tucci

            First you explain the “Cambrian layer” which shows a sudden explosion of fully formed creatures with NO links to the layer below it.

          • Framinghammer

            There are links to Cambrian life forms in the Ediacaran and older periods. Among animals, for instance, there are proto-sponges and bilaterians.

          • Joe Kerr

            WRONG!!!! All evidence show that man didn’t evolve from apes…only that they have a common ancestor…

          • Framinghammer

            Joe,

            You’re wrong. Humans evolved from our common ancestor with chimps. That ancestor shared a common ancestor with gorillas. That ancestor shared a common ancestor with orangutans.

            We have 23 pairs of chromosomes because two small standard ape chromosomes fused into our #2 in the course of human evolution.

            Humans not only evolved from apes. We are apes, ie large, tailless anthropoid primates. We share with other apes the derived traits whch characterize our clade.

            The scientific term for the common English word “ape” is Superfamily Hominoidea. This clade consists of Family Hylobatidae, the lesser apes (gibbons), and Family Hominidae, the great apes (chimps, humans, gorillas and orangutans).

            The sister group to the apes is the Old World “monkeys”. Apes and OWMs are crown group catarrhines, descended from now extinct stem catarrhines and sharing distinguishing derived traits.

            Unlike “ape”, the common English word “monkey” doesn’t apply to a monophyletic clade, since it’s used for both Old and New World “monkeys”, which are less closely related than are OWMs and apes. NWMs are not catarrhines, but platyrrhines. Thus the term “monkey” is “paraphyletic” and not a valid scientific taxon.

            Platyrrhines and catarrhines are anthropoids (or simians), sister group to tarsiers in Suborder Haplorhini. The other suborder in Order Primates is Strepsirrhini, ie lemurs, galagos and lorisids.

          • Joe Kerr

            WRONG again!!!! how they chose to classify us.. and how we evolved are 2 different things… using your logic (sic) we could be called great house flies since we have some 92% genetic material in common…however man and apes evolved separately from a common ancestor and that’s not in dispute!!!

          • Framinghammer

            Again my reply seems to have vanished.

            Don’t know how you’re measuring genetic similarlity, but humans and flies share about 60% commonality in genes, ie protein-coding sequences.

            Under cladistic taxonomy, classification is based upon phylogeny. Hence, humans are classified with apes because we are apes. Our last common ancestor with other apes was of course indubitably itself an ape.

            Naturally, chimps and humans have both evolved separately since diverging from this ancestral species, chimps faster than humans.

            We split off from this ancestor some six to seven millions years ago (Ma). Our last common ancestor with flies was 600 to 700 Ma.

          • Tofara Moyo

            Before you say anything ask yourself, would christ say this…do you have the mind to die for all those who are disagreeing with you, like christ…because you are pushing all these poor people away from him, more and more as you speak

          • Rose

            they have pushed themself way and blocked their ears?

          • Tofara Moyo

            No, YOU have pushed them away

          • Rose

            TofuMaru – I think you need to go look in a mirror and slowly speak the words you type?

          • Rose

            TofuMaru the people I parry with have already fixed on worshipping Satan and no reason or evidence will shatter their shield of Satan. Holy Spirit could shatter their shields with the spear of truth, but alas – their eyes are dimmed and their ears are blocked…

        • Lark62

          Crocodiles are related to bird and dinosaurs, but are not birds or dinosaurs.

          • Framinghammer

            Correct. Crocs and birds (and other dinos) are archosaurs, as were pterosaurs. They have extra holes in their skulls and jaws besides the two behind the eye socket which make them diapsids.

            OTOH, squamates (lizards and snakes) and tuataras are lepidosaurs, the other group of “reptiles”. The position of turtles has been controversial, but genetic data show them to be more closely related to archosaurs than lepidosaurs.

      • George Craig

        The flood was probably actually based on a real, worldwide disaster, though. The evidence keeps piling up, but most scientists keep ignoring it.
        1. Trillions of microdiamonds and tectites scattered across the midwest US and Canada
        2. The missing layer of the Hudson Bay: All sediment from 3 million years ago until 13,000 years ago is missing
        3. All inhabitants of Europe prior to ~13,000 years ago were M haplotype. Afterwards, all inhabitants were N haplotype. Mass extinction followed by rapid re-colonization
        4. 13,000 years ago, the entire Hawaiian coral reef drowned
        5. The Lesser Dryas: It was as if something happened that threw enough particulate matter into the atmosphere that there was no summer for several years, causing a short but intense ice age
        6. A burned layer stretching all the way into Mexico at the 13,000 year boundary
        7. All flora and fauna in Britain became extinct and were replaced by new species
        8. The Clovis Native Americans suddenly went extinct
        9. Most of the Midwest was covered with over 300 feet of water, which reached speeds close to 1,000 miles per hour. There are boulders that travelled thousands of miles.
        10. The “bottleneck” in human DNA within the last 100,000 years: It doesn’t match up well with a single volcanic eruption 85,000 years ago. Human settlements in the immediate vicinity weren’t even wiped out, but it killed 99.9% of the human race worldwide? Also, for it to be that far back, you would have to assume that, instead of people having kids in their teens back then, like they did in recent history until the last couple of centuries, they waited until they were in their 50s in order for there to only be that small of a number of generations.

        11. At about the 13,000 year period, 90% of all land mammals went extinct.
        12. There was a “blip” in the Earth’s magnetic field at about 13,000 years ago
        13. The Great Lakes all suddenly formed 13,000 years ago
        14. The Sahara Desert gained enough topsoil to become fertile for a couple of thousand years

        15. We still have the Taurid meteor showers every year, that were originally caused by a 35-mile-wide asteroid that broke up when it grazed Earth’s atmosphere about 13,000 years ago.
        It looks like some of the HUGE chunks of that asteroid hit the Earth, with a big one hitting the Hudson Bay in Canada and melting a MASSIVE amount of ice to melt, continental wild fires and scattered microdiamonds and tectites, while enough mud from the basin entered the upper atmosphere that it kept raining down for months, long enough to make the Sahara Desert fertile for a couple of thousand years, while blocking enough sunlight for enough years to cause a very cold, very short ice age

    • http://architizer.com//users/ar-neal/ Ar Neal

      Sumerians INVENTED the story of the flood, which, by logic, naturally preceded the fable of Noah and the mythology of the bible. Magical thinking centered around the biblical myths didn’t come into vogue until around the 1st century AD.

  • justawriter

    It raises the question. It does not beg the question, which is a particular kind of logical fallacy.

    • bomadisqus

      I beg to differ. To beg the question is indeed the name given to a type of logical fallacy. But to beg the question may also be to raise a question. Don’t believe me? Look it up. Merriam Webster lists these definitions: beg the question
      1 : to elicit a question logically as a reaction or response
      the quarterback’s injury begs the question of who will start in his place
      2 : to pass over or ignore a question by assuming it to be established or settled

  • John Fields

    wasn’t the Indus valley Harappa civilization writing at the same time?

    • Framinghammer

      Indus Vallley symbols haven’t been definitively shown to be a linguistic script. Nor have they been deciphered, if they indeed be linguistic in nature, although some have argued that they represent proto-Dravidian.

  • peterjohn936

    Wouldn’t the ancient Irish writing system Ogham be considered a separate system?

    • FluffyGhostKitten

      It might be derived from the Latin alphabet, in which case, no. But nobody’s quite sure.

    • jonathanpulliam

      “Sure and they’re always after me Lucky Charms!”

  • Molnár Mihály

    Old Europe was at least a thousand years earlier, but if we assume continuity with the paleolithic signs then could be older than 17kya.

  • jonathanpulliam

    “And it came to pass in those days that there went out a Trump decree from Putin that all the world should be taxed, to pay for the mercenaries in Syria. And all went to be taxed, every one unto his own city.

    And Jared Kushner also went up from Galilee out of the city of Nazareth into Judaea unto the city of Weinstein, which is called Bethlehem to disguise his employ by the Nazarenes, to be taxed with Ivanka his espoused wife, being great with well-adjusted Harvard/CIA-destined child.

    And so it was that while they were there the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn son and wrapped him in high-thread-count swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger, as there was no room for them at their 666 5th Ave. Park of the Beast” apartment.

    And there was in the same country NASDAQ and NYSE day-trade speculators abiding in the field keeping watch over their ticker symbols by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone ’round about them, and they were sore afraid. And the angel of the Lord said unto them,

    “Fear not, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

    “For unto you is born this day in the City of Manhattan a Savior, which is Jarvanka Jr., the Lord.

    “And this shall be a sign unto you: Ye shall find the babe wrapped in high-thread-count swaddling clothes lying in a manger.”

    “And within one news cycle there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on Earth peace, good will toward men.
    And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the floor traders said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem Steel, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us. And they came with haste and found Ivanka and Jared, and the babe lying in a manger.”
    And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child. And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the Floor Traders. But Ivanka kept all these things and pondered them in her heart.

    And the Floor traders returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen as it was told unto them.”

    • Lorie Franceschi

      Why did you mock the Word of God with your silly little tale that not only bring politics but religion in to this article? If you were trying to be funny, you were not. If you were trying to be a smart a$$ you did not do a good job there either. Please be kind and keep such little saying to places where the are appropriate. Thank you.

      • jonathanpulliam

        Lick it, you Satan-worshipping painted Babylonian Succubus! Go die!

        • okiejoe

          I thought it was kind of funny.

      • StanChaz

        My friend you do not own religion. If anyone mocks the religious traditions of love hope and charity it is the Trump administration.

        • Lorie Franceschi

          This is a place to read about new scientific trends in the area of human education. We as the general public get to and should debate the merits of the articles. Not bring religion or politics in it to the debate. Doing so, might show that a person just wishes to stir things up and get their 15 minutes of fame ( Thank you Andy Warhol and Nat Finklestein). For providing that so called 15 minutes of fame to several people here, I am guilty.
          Lets agree to keep our debate on the object of this article and keep the name calling, the belittling of any religion and politics out. If people don’t think they cannot leave that stuff out of a scientific debate, I feel sorry for them.
          Please have a nice day.😊

          • john tucci

            A super post Lorie, I too am tired of the Dems taking every and any opportunity to belittle Trump, talk about sore losers.

    • StanChaz

      This, as some two thousand years later on another Christmas Eve, yet another child, an innocent child simply seeking refuge, asylum and shelter, died in the custody of Donald Trump’s border patrol. Fleeing hell he was taken into heaven. May God have mercy on us. And pray that we as a nation, that we as a people, are better than this.

  • Lorie Franceschi

    I had guessed the Summarians as one of the first. The article said it was around present day Iraq, but didn’t the Summarians actually cover more area than present day Iraq ( The Fertile Crescent)? The Fertile Crescent lies in Iraq, Israel/Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and Jordan as well as the southeastern fringe of Turkey and the western fringes of Iran. Some authors include Cyprus.
    Would there have been contact between Mesopotamia and Egypt during the creation of each areas formation of writing?

    • jonathanpulliam

      The earliest writing were pressed clay customs chits at the ancient worlds far-flung Ports. Once popularly comprehended, a cottage industry in Papyrus-scroll “fiction” would emerge.

    • Framinghammer

      Sumer itself was limited to lower Mesopotamia, ie southern Iraq today, but under Semitic languages, cuneiform writing spread up the rivers and into the northern Levant, as shown by the Ugaritic tablets.

  • Tamara

    In the example, it shows between 3200 – 3000 the characters rotated. Why did this occur? Thank you.

    • StanChaz

      Why not?

    • Vineeth

      The script was read from top to bottom, not left to right like English. The scribes found that it was more convenient to write from left to right and rotated the tablets to do so while staying backwards compatible in reading

  • Paul O

    Toxic insanity at its best (ie, worst.)

  • StanChaz

    Obviously humans are devolving rather than progressing.
    For the quote from the article which describes early attempts at writing (“They allow literate people to write anything they can say, and have it read just as intended”) is an apt and accurate description of Donald Trump’s tweet tantrums.

  • churchy lafemme

    Re these comments:
    Maybe inventing writing wasn’t such a great idea, or at least should have been limited to counting goats.

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