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	<title>Comments on: New Study: If a Dude Sounds Strong, He Probably Is</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/2010/06/16/new-study-if-a-dude-sounds-strong-he-probably-is/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/2010/06/16/new-study-if-a-dude-sounds-strong-he-probably-is/</link>
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		<title>By: Eliza Strickland</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/2010/06/16/new-study-if-a-dude-sounds-strong-he-probably-is/#comment-22237</link>
		<dc:creator>Eliza Strickland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 16:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/?p=10362#comment-22237</guid>
		<description>Sunny:

You&#039;re right, I inadvertently inserted that error while editing this post. The sentence the men read is actually part of a longer passage that&#039;s commonly used in speech tests, called &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://everything2.com/title/The+Rainbow+Passage&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the rainbow passage&lt;/a&gt;.&quot; The passage was designed to contain *almost* all the sounds in the English language -- apparently it&#039;s got everything except the palatal fricative and the glottal stop. I&#039;ll fix the error in the post.

-- Eliza, DISCOVER online news editor</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunny:</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right, I inadvertently inserted that error while editing this post. The sentence the men read is actually part of a longer passage that&#8217;s commonly used in speech tests, called &#8220;<a href="http://everything2.com/title/The+Rainbow+Passage" rel="nofollow">the rainbow passage</a>.&#8221; The passage was designed to contain *almost* all the sounds in the English language &#8212; apparently it&#8217;s got everything except the palatal fricative and the glottal stop. I&#8217;ll fix the error in the post.</p>
<p>&#8211; Eliza, DISCOVER online news editor</p>
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		<title>By: Sheila Best</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/2010/06/16/new-study-if-a-dude-sounds-strong-he-probably-is/#comment-22236</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheila Best</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 04:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/?p=10362#comment-22236</guid>
		<description>The 70s party theme seems to go on forever.
There&#039;s music, films and fashion to remind us.
The site here is full of all outfits worn by
people of the time.

Sheila</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The 70s party theme seems to go on forever.<br />
There&#8217;s music, films and fashion to remind us.<br />
The site here is full of all outfits worn by<br />
people of the time.</p>
<p>Sheila</p>
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		<title>By: sunny</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/2010/06/16/new-study-if-a-dude-sounds-strong-he-probably-is/#comment-22235</link>
		<dc:creator>sunny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 00:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/?p=10362#comment-22235</guid>
		<description>That sentence does not contain all English sounds; for example, there is no &quot;ing&quot;, and nothing else that sounds like it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That sentence does not contain all English sounds; for example, there is no &#8220;ing&#8221;, and nothing else that sounds like it.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Sell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/2010/06/16/new-study-if-a-dude-sounds-strong-he-probably-is/#comment-22234</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Sell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/?p=10362#comment-22234</guid>
		<description>Evolutionary Psychology is frequently accused of making &quot;just-so&quot; stories when we document new findings.  This is a curious criticism because it seems to apply less to EP findings than any other area of social science.  For example, the debate on self-esteem and aggression fits neatly into any social psychology framework; e.g. if those with high self-esteem are aggressive it is because they feel entitled, if low SE is linked to aggression it&#039;s because they&#039;re lashing out at others to compensate.

What makes EP different is that our hypotheses must pass a strict logical test: the features we posit must have plausibly led to increased reproductive success in our evolutionary past.  It is the same test that theories in evolutionary biology must pass.

When people are unfamiliar with evolutionary biology, animal behavior and models of natural selection it often looks like those who use the theories are just making them up.  This is not the case.  The literature on animal assessment and aggression show that animals, prior to aggression, exaggerate or enhance cues of fighting ability, but they do not hide them.  This was noted by Darwin in his Expressions book and has been replicated, documented and predicted in dozens of species since then.

Models of animal aggression show that mutual assessment is selected for.  Indeed long &quot;escalating conflicts of assessment&quot; take place between animals in which relatively safe mutual assessment can occur.

If I had studied any species other than humans and documented this ability no one would think to call it a just-so story.  It is a clear prediction from a model of evolutionary selection that has already predicted and found this sort of ability in other species.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evolutionary Psychology is frequently accused of making &#8220;just-so&#8221; stories when we document new findings.  This is a curious criticism because it seems to apply less to EP findings than any other area of social science.  For example, the debate on self-esteem and aggression fits neatly into any social psychology framework; e.g. if those with high self-esteem are aggressive it is because they feel entitled, if low SE is linked to aggression it&#8217;s because they&#8217;re lashing out at others to compensate.</p>
<p>What makes EP different is that our hypotheses must pass a strict logical test: the features we posit must have plausibly led to increased reproductive success in our evolutionary past.  It is the same test that theories in evolutionary biology must pass.</p>
<p>When people are unfamiliar with evolutionary biology, animal behavior and models of natural selection it often looks like those who use the theories are just making them up.  This is not the case.  The literature on animal assessment and aggression show that animals, prior to aggression, exaggerate or enhance cues of fighting ability, but they do not hide them.  This was noted by Darwin in his Expressions book and has been replicated, documented and predicted in dozens of species since then.</p>
<p>Models of animal aggression show that mutual assessment is selected for.  Indeed long &#8220;escalating conflicts of assessment&#8221; take place between animals in which relatively safe mutual assessment can occur.</p>
<p>If I had studied any species other than humans and documented this ability no one would think to call it a just-so story.  It is a clear prediction from a model of evolutionary selection that has already predicted and found this sort of ability in other species.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Calamia</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/2010/06/16/new-study-if-a-dude-sounds-strong-he-probably-is/#comment-22233</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Calamia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/?p=10362#comment-22233</guid>
		<description>Carl and Chris,

Thanks for the comments. You both make a good point: the researchers don’t seem to know why certain voices correspond to strength measurements. The test can’t tell them why; it can only show that they do correspond, statistically.

To me, what is also interesting is that the researchers don’t seem to specifically know what it is about the voices that differs; they aren’t necessarily deeper. As Chris says, these all seem like areas for further research.

Carl, your thought about what the authors would have said if the study showed no correlation is also interesting. This paper mentions that previous studies tried to link voice to height and weight and showed no significant link. The study also showed no link between women’s voices and their strength.

For more, the whole study is up here: http://bit.ly/bynIFh

Thanks again for commenting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl and Chris,</p>
<p>Thanks for the comments. You both make a good point: the researchers don’t seem to know why certain voices correspond to strength measurements. The test can’t tell them why; it can only show that they do correspond, statistically.</p>
<p>To me, what is also interesting is that the researchers don’t seem to specifically know what it is about the voices that differs; they aren’t necessarily deeper. As Chris says, these all seem like areas for further research.</p>
<p>Carl, your thought about what the authors would have said if the study showed no correlation is also interesting. This paper mentions that previous studies tried to link voice to height and weight and showed no significant link. The study also showed no link between women’s voices and their strength.</p>
<p>For more, the whole study is up here: <a href="http://bit.ly/bynIFh" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/bynIFh</a></p>
<p>Thanks again for commenting.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/2010/06/16/new-study-if-a-dude-sounds-strong-he-probably-is/#comment-22232</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:14:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/?p=10362#comment-22232</guid>
		<description>@Carl: From the sound of it, their ideas as to the cause were purely speculative, in a &quot;future work&quot; section, or similar. Your hypothesis for the cause is also good. It just means that further studies are needed if we want to actually test what the cause might be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Carl: From the sound of it, their ideas as to the cause were purely speculative, in a &#8220;future work&#8221; section, or similar. Your hypothesis for the cause is also good. It just means that further studies are needed if we want to actually test what the cause might be.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/2010/06/16/new-study-if-a-dude-sounds-strong-he-probably-is/#comment-22231</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/?p=10362#comment-22231</guid>
		<description>While the result itself is interesting, the purported explanation is complete nonsense: the usual kind of post hoc &quot;just so&quot; story of evolutionary psychology. Imagine for a moment that the experiment had turned out to show no correlation. The 3rd paragraph would then have gone like this:

“Disguising male formidability would have been important for both sexes over evolutionary time,” said Sell. “Men would have benefitted from disguising who would likely win fights in order to deter aggression and dominance by stronger males and for other reasons. Women would also want this information in order to make effective mate choices, so weaker men would have greater reproductive success if they could eliminate signals that give away weakness. It&#039;s another example of adaptive mimicry so often found in nature.”

Good science starts with a hypothesis, a prediction, and then a test. When your hypothesis -- &quot;evolutionary success shapes complex behaviors&quot; -- allows you to predict completely contradictory outcomes, then cherry pick the one that matches the outcome, you really don&#039;t have much of a hypothesis.

A more likely explanation? Probably there is a correlation between hormonal levels and strength, aggressiveness, and vocal characteristics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While the result itself is interesting, the purported explanation is complete nonsense: the usual kind of post hoc &#8220;just so&#8221; story of evolutionary psychology. Imagine for a moment that the experiment had turned out to show no correlation. The 3rd paragraph would then have gone like this:</p>
<p>“Disguising male formidability would have been important for both sexes over evolutionary time,” said Sell. “Men would have benefitted from disguising who would likely win fights in order to deter aggression and dominance by stronger males and for other reasons. Women would also want this information in order to make effective mate choices, so weaker men would have greater reproductive success if they could eliminate signals that give away weakness. It&#8217;s another example of adaptive mimicry so often found in nature.”</p>
<p>Good science starts with a hypothesis, a prediction, and then a test. When your hypothesis &#8212; &#8220;evolutionary success shapes complex behaviors&#8221; &#8212; allows you to predict completely contradictory outcomes, then cherry pick the one that matches the outcome, you really don&#8217;t have much of a hypothesis.</p>
<p>A more likely explanation? Probably there is a correlation between hormonal levels and strength, aggressiveness, and vocal characteristics.</p>
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