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	<title>Comments on: Levels of analysis of religion, Atran, Boyer &amp; Wilson</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/</link>
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		<title>By: windy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5623</link>
		<dc:creator>windy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 01:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5623</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;europe is post-christian, but not not secular. just because organized &quot;higher&quot; religion is a weak force does not mean that people have rejected supernaturalism&lt;/i&gt;
True, Europeans believe lots of funny stuff. But what may or may not be significant is that most people think that God or religion are just not that important in their lives. So the importance of supernaturalism in general seems to be low, although alternative beliefs may be gaining ground as Christianity has lost it.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>europe is post-christian, but not not secular. just because organized &#8220;higher&#8221; religion is a weak force does not mean that people have rejected supernaturalism</i><br />
True, Europeans believe lots of funny stuff. But what may or may not be significant is that most people think that God or religion are just not that important in their lives. So the importance of supernaturalism in general seems to be low, although alternative beliefs may be gaining ground as Christianity has lost it.</p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5622</link>
		<dc:creator>razib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 04:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5622</guid>
		<description>you should get atran&#039;s book. there are tests of predictions.  and strictly speaking his work is more cognitive anthropology than evolutionary psychology. he does use evolutionary arguments, but they are supplemental, not essential, so the whole issue of going back into the past is irrelevant.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you should get atran&#8217;s book. there are tests of predictions.  and strictly speaking his work is more cognitive anthropology than evolutionary psychology. he does use evolutionary arguments, but they are supplemental, not essential, so the whole issue of going back into the past is irrelevant.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5621</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 03:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5621</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
inference &amp; uniformitarianism.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
While I&#039;m not quite a naive Popperian, I do think testing some unique predictions has been found to be a must to establish which theories are correct. I will continue to believe that it isn&#039;t a confirmed science yet, still on par with some others attempts that ultimately failed and I don&#039;t dare mention here. ;-)
I&#039;m sure this is not what you want to hear, but you can always take comfort that I&#039;m not a peer and understand the real deal. I&#039;m just a random blogger that passed by. It will be interesting to see how these ideas develop, though.
Oh, and thanks for all the time taken.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
inference &amp; uniformitarianism.
</p></blockquote>
<p>While I&#8217;m not quite a naive Popperian, I do think testing some unique predictions has been found to be a must to establish which theories are correct. I will continue to believe that it isn&#8217;t a confirmed science yet, still on par with some others attempts that ultimately failed and I don&#8217;t dare mention here. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
I&#8217;m sure this is not what you want to hear, but you can always take comfort that I&#8217;m not a peer and understand the real deal. I&#8217;m just a random blogger that passed by. It will be interesting to see how these ideas develop, though.<br />
Oh, and thanks for all the time taken.</p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5620</link>
		<dc:creator>razib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5620</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But I can&#039;t see how we can track this back in time and establish some sort of universality in us as humans and possibly related ancestors and test it.&lt;/i&gt;
inference &amp; uniformitarianism.  and of course, the standard technique is to focus on small scale cultures which have been relatively isolated as analogs for past cultures.  you can criticize this method, but that doesn&#039;t negate that the method exists.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>But I can&#8217;t see how we can track this back in time and establish some sort of universality in us as humans and possibly related ancestors and test it.</i><br />
inference &amp; uniformitarianism.  and of course, the standard technique is to focus on small scale cultures which have been relatively isolated as analogs for past cultures.  you can criticize this method, but that doesn&#8217;t negate that the method exists.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5619</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5619</guid>
		<description>I shouldn&#039;t really continue to comment, because since evolutionary psychology isn&#039;t yet confirmed as a predictive science (AFAIK) I have tried to understand if it has the means to become so, probably before understanding the basics.
Not connecting critically with observations makes it important to be as skeptical as possible. But it isn&#039;t conducive for a dialog. Just a comment from my view:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
show that there is a universal conception which underlies all the textual nuances and variations across cultures.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yes, I understand that it is a difference between suggesting universality now, and suggesting that it originated at some specific point in time. But I can&#039;t see how we can track this back in time and establish some sort of universality in us as humans and possibly related ancestors and test it.
Changing the environment would be another possibility, of course. I think some are working on it. :-)
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I shouldn&#8217;t really continue to comment, because since evolutionary psychology isn&#8217;t yet confirmed as a predictive science (AFAIK) I have tried to understand if it has the means to become so, probably before understanding the basics.<br />
Not connecting critically with observations makes it important to be as skeptical as possible. But it isn&#8217;t conducive for a dialog. Just a comment from my view:</p>
<blockquote><p>
show that there is a universal conception which underlies all the textual nuances and variations across cultures.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, I understand that it is a difference between suggesting universality now, and suggesting that it originated at some specific point in time. But I can&#8217;t see how we can track this back in time and establish some sort of universality in us as humans and possibly related ancestors and test it.<br />
Changing the environment would be another possibility, of course. I think some are working on it. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: omar</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5618</link>
		<dc:creator>omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great post, esp point number 3.  The God-Kings did come first.
Slightly off topic but look at Bill O&#039;Reilly interviewing Richard Dawkins &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8etMHn4P6g&amp;eurl=&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  Weirdly easygoing, all over the place, like a hippy or something. &#039;i saw apollo man, he&#039;s down there, not lookin good&#039;, &#039;when you get it (a scientific understanding of everything in the universe) maybe I&#039;ll listen.&#039;  I don&#039;t think O&#039;Reilly actually believes in anything.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, esp point number 3.  The God-Kings did come first.<br />
Slightly off topic but look at Bill O&#8217;Reilly interviewing Richard Dawkins <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8etMHn4P6g&amp;eurl=" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  Weirdly easygoing, all over the place, like a hippy or something. &#8216;i saw apollo man, he&#8217;s down there, not lookin good&#8217;, &#8216;when you get it (a scientific understanding of everything in the universe) maybe I&#8217;ll listen.&#8217;  I don&#8217;t think O&#8217;Reilly actually believes in anything.</p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5617</link>
		<dc:creator>razib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:15:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5617</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;So here we need an account of the supernatural nature, ie written sources&lt;/i&gt;
no, we don&#039;t need written sources.  psychologists study the gestalt/implicit god-concept without reference to textual expositions, and show that there is a &lt;b&gt;universal&lt;/b&gt; conception which underlies all the textual nuances and variations across cultures.  even atheists, who reject this conception as having reality can usually understand what they are rejecting, or, they exhibit some of the same tendencies but resist them.
&lt;i&gt;So I&#039;m still stuck with Moran&#039;s observation that there are many similar human activities, and that it isn&#039;t necessarily an old and/or persistent phenomena.&lt;/i&gt;
?  i have said &lt;b&gt;many&lt;/b&gt; times that religion is banal and draws upon conventional psychological predispositions. yes, xenophobia and other things probably are heritable, just like religion. but that&#039;s neither here nor there.  religion is in my conception a quantitative trait.  in other words, you can change the mean value by changing the environment.  i am skeptical that we can change the environment to make atheism the median value.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>So here we need an account of the supernatural nature, ie written sources</i><br />
no, we don&#8217;t need written sources.  psychologists study the gestalt/implicit god-concept without reference to textual expositions, and show that there is a <b>universal</b> conception which underlies all the textual nuances and variations across cultures.  even atheists, who reject this conception as having reality can usually understand what they are rejecting, or, they exhibit some of the same tendencies but resist them.<br />
<i>So I&#8217;m still stuck with Moran&#8217;s observation that there are many similar human activities, and that it isn&#8217;t necessarily an old and/or persistent phenomena.</i><br />
?  i have said <b>many</b> times that religion is banal and draws upon conventional psychological predispositions. yes, xenophobia and other things probably are heritable, just like religion. but that&#8217;s neither here nor there.  religion is in my conception a quantitative trait.  in other words, you can change the mean value by changing the environment.  i am skeptical that we can change the environment to make atheism the median value.</p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5616</link>
		<dc:creator>razib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:11:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5616</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;To only break things down into the religious elite and the laymen is too broad a generalization. You may think that it covers all the bases but in my opinion it is lacking essentials&lt;/i&gt;
no it isn&#039;t, it focuses on the essentials.  extreme mysticism is marginal, not essential.
&lt;i&gt;Also within the idea of a particular book containing several levels of meta-message in the same text there are also several levels of mystic experience all of which are valid and if a religion is designed well all of produce a ttpe of functionality in the individual.&lt;/i&gt;
?...?...?...?...?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>To only break things down into the religious elite and the laymen is too broad a generalization. You may think that it covers all the bases but in my opinion it is lacking essentials</i><br />
no it isn&#8217;t, it focuses on the essentials.  extreme mysticism is marginal, not essential.<br />
<i>Also within the idea of a particular book containing several levels of meta-message in the same text there are also several levels of mystic experience all of which are valid and if a religion is designed well all of produce a ttpe of functionality in the individual.</i><br />
?&#8230;?&#8230;?&#8230;?&#8230;?</p>
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		<title>By: Matrixism</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5615</link>
		<dc:creator>Matrixism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 06:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5615</guid>
		<description>Razib, I think you miss my point when I say that there are many different archetypes of people. To only break things down into the religious elite and the laymen is too broad a generalization. You may think that it covers all the bases but in my opinion it is lacking essentials.
As for your characterization of mystics it also seems overly generalized. It seems that you believe that all mystics necessarily become prime movers. I don&#039;t think this is the case. Many mystics just follow the party line so to speak and become what anyone would call just another follower. Also within the idea of a particular book containing several levels of meta-message in the same text there are also several levels of mystic experience all of which are valid and if a religion is designed well all of produce a ttpe of functionality in the individual.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Razib, I think you miss my point when I say that there are many different archetypes of people. To only break things down into the religious elite and the laymen is too broad a generalization. You may think that it covers all the bases but in my opinion it is lacking essentials.<br />
As for your characterization of mystics it also seems overly generalized. It seems that you believe that all mystics necessarily become prime movers. I don&#8217;t think this is the case. Many mystics just follow the party line so to speak and become what anyone would call just another follower. Also within the idea of a particular book containing several levels of meta-message in the same text there are also several levels of mystic experience all of which are valid and if a religion is designed well all of produce a ttpe of functionality in the individual.</p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5614</link>
		<dc:creator>razib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 06:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5614</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What do these academics make of, say, the Southern Baptist&#039;s emphasis on &quot;getting saved&quot;? Do they just chalk it up to mass delusion? A lot of these cats will tell you about the timbre of Jesus&#039;s voice.&lt;/i&gt;
revivals are &#039;sensory pageantry.&#039;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What do these academics make of, say, the Southern Baptist&#8217;s emphasis on &#8220;getting saved&#8221;? Do they just chalk it up to mass delusion? A lot of these cats will tell you about the timbre of Jesus&#8217;s voice.</i><br />
revivals are &#8216;sensory pageantry.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5613</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 04:43:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5613</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;b&gt;I DEFINED RELIGION VERY CLEARLY ABOVE IN REGARDS TO WHAT I MEAN.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
You don&#039;t have to shout. I just didn&#039;t see the how your vague definition of &quot;mental conception&quot; could be compliant with evidence for that &quot;the vast majority of humans have been &#039;religious&#039;&quot;. Of course, I read that as the &#039;vast historical time of humans&#039;, since I assumed we are studying it as &quot;universal nature&quot;. Perhaps that was a mistake.
And it was in that light you should see my attempt to define observable characteristics of religion to establish its &quot;universal nature&quot;. You offer later that religion is &quot;a supernatural set of beliefs compelling to individuals coupled with ritual practices and spanning communities and generations&quot;, which I missed.
If that is your definition, you are correct, I still can&#039;t make it out to be intelligible as a foundation to establish &quot;universal nature&quot; in say the last 100 000 years which should cover humans as we know them.
You yourself discuss conflations with secular and &quot;non-supernatural movements which overlap with religions&quot;. So here we need an account of the supernatural nature, ie written sources. And I discussed rituals, which apparently isn&#039;t enough to distinguish religion, as I supposed.
So I&#039;m still stuck with Moran&#039;s observation that there are many similar human activities, and that it isn&#039;t necessarily an old and/or persistent phenomena.
I&#039;m sorry that you feel I am playing instead of trying to seriously engage these ideas. Part of the reason is probably that I don&#039;t have the necessary background by far. Another part is perhaps that I didn&#039;t format my naive exploration in form of humble questions which I see Moran did. Other parts I think I leave to you. ;-)
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
<b>I DEFINED RELIGION VERY CLEARLY ABOVE IN REGARDS TO WHAT I MEAN.</b></p></blockquote>
<p>You don&#8217;t have to shout. I just didn&#8217;t see the how your vague definition of &#8220;mental conception&#8221; could be compliant with evidence for that &#8220;the vast majority of humans have been &#8216;religious&#8217;&#8221;. Of course, I read that as the &#8216;vast historical time of humans&#8217;, since I assumed we are studying it as &#8220;universal nature&#8221;. Perhaps that was a mistake.<br />
And it was in that light you should see my attempt to define observable characteristics of religion to establish its &#8220;universal nature&#8221;. You offer later that religion is &#8220;a supernatural set of beliefs compelling to individuals coupled with ritual practices and spanning communities and generations&#8221;, which I missed.<br />
If that is your definition, you are correct, I still can&#8217;t make it out to be intelligible as a foundation to establish &#8220;universal nature&#8221; in say the last 100 000 years which should cover humans as we know them.<br />
You yourself discuss conflations with secular and &#8220;non-supernatural movements which overlap with religions&#8221;. So here we need an account of the supernatural nature, ie written sources. And I discussed rituals, which apparently isn&#8217;t enough to distinguish religion, as I supposed.<br />
So I&#8217;m still stuck with Moran&#8217;s observation that there are many similar human activities, and that it isn&#8217;t necessarily an old and/or persistent phenomena.<br />
I&#8217;m sorry that you feel I am playing instead of trying to seriously engage these ideas. Part of the reason is probably that I don&#8217;t have the necessary background by far. Another part is perhaps that I didn&#8217;t format my naive exploration in form of humble questions which I see Moran did. Other parts I think I leave to you. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5612</link>
		<dc:creator>razib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5612</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Not if we are talking evidence AFAIK - I don&#039;t think we have evidence regards slavery and religion going far back in history.&lt;/i&gt;
yes we do.
&lt;i&gt;Some phenomena said to be religious (burial analogs, revisits of dead) are present in animals - is that religion?&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;b&gt;I DEFINED RELIGION VERY CLEARLY ABOVE IN REGARDS TO WHAT I MEAN&lt;/b&gt;.  please don&#039;t play semantics with me, you can use whatever definition you want, but that doesn&#039;t mean i want to play by your rules. get it?
i think we&#039;ve been through this before. we disagree on so many foundational factual points that we aren&#039;t really going to be intelligible to each other.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Not if we are talking evidence AFAIK &#8211; I don&#8217;t think we have evidence regards slavery and religion going far back in history.</i><br />
yes we do.<br />
<i>Some phenomena said to be religious (burial analogs, revisits of dead) are present in animals &#8211; is that religion?</i><br />
<b>I DEFINED RELIGION VERY CLEARLY ABOVE IN REGARDS TO WHAT I MEAN</b>.  please don&#8217;t play semantics with me, you can use whatever definition you want, but that doesn&#8217;t mean i want to play by your rules. get it?<br />
i think we&#8217;ve been through this before. we disagree on so many foundational factual points that we aren&#8217;t really going to be intelligible to each other.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5611</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 02:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5611</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
please don&#039;t respond to the xtian.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Sorry, I usually don&#039;t respond to trolls. I probably had my narrow analytic parts of brain in gear.
&lt;blockquote&gt;
though not all societies have been slave societies. the vast majority of humans have been &#039;religious.&#039;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Not if we are talking evidence AFAIK - I don&#039;t think we have evidence regards slavery and religion going far back in history. Your characteristics have probably been there, but so have the characteristics for slavery. Some phenomena said to be religious (burial analogs, revisits of dead) are present in animals - is that religion?
If you mean that religion has been more ubiquitous in societies, perhaps. But as not all free persons have been slave owners, not all persons have been religious.
I doubt slavery and religion have the same threshold for use, when we are comparing frequencies. Slaves kills slave owners to get free, non-religious doesn&#039;t kill priests to be exempted from church. There is usually only one slave system in a society. Et cetera.
&lt;blockquote&gt;
slavery is specified by a simple set of characteristics, just as xenophobia is. it&#039;s a general term. religion as i&#039;m talking about exhibits specific characteristics.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Again, I&#039;m not satisfied with the motivations for claiming religion as different (as given here). Can you be more, uh, &quot;specific&quot;. :-)
Really, what was simple about slavery? Many forms, important for the communities, for trade, and for power, et cetera.
&lt;blockquote&gt;
the tendencies which make one receptive to religion are probably heritable.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
And that differs from the tendencies that makes one receptive to slavery or examples in Moran&#039;s list, how?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
please don&#8217;t respond to the xtian.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Sorry, I usually don&#8217;t respond to trolls. I probably had my narrow analytic parts of brain in gear.</p>
<blockquote><p>
though not all societies have been slave societies. the vast majority of humans have been &#8216;religious.&#8217;
</p></blockquote>
<p>Not if we are talking evidence AFAIK &#8211; I don&#8217;t think we have evidence regards slavery and religion going far back in history. Your characteristics have probably been there, but so have the characteristics for slavery. Some phenomena said to be religious (burial analogs, revisits of dead) are present in animals &#8211; is that religion?<br />
If you mean that religion has been more ubiquitous in societies, perhaps. But as not all free persons have been slave owners, not all persons have been religious.<br />
I doubt slavery and religion have the same threshold for use, when we are comparing frequencies. Slaves kills slave owners to get free, non-religious doesn&#8217;t kill priests to be exempted from church. There is usually only one slave system in a society. Et cetera.</p>
<blockquote><p>
slavery is specified by a simple set of characteristics, just as xenophobia is. it&#8217;s a general term. religion as i&#8217;m talking about exhibits specific characteristics.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Again, I&#8217;m not satisfied with the motivations for claiming religion as different (as given here). Can you be more, uh, &#8220;specific&#8221;. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
Really, what was simple about slavery? Many forms, important for the communities, for trade, and for power, et cetera.</p>
<blockquote><p>
the tendencies which make one receptive to religion are probably heritable.
</p></blockquote>
<p>And that differs from the tendencies that makes one receptive to slavery or examples in Moran&#8217;s list, how?</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5610</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 02:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5610</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;i think that &#039;mysticism&#039; as the primary motive for religion is very much a minority force, though it exists in every tradition &lt;/i&gt;
There&#039;s the sort of music where 50,000 teenagers hold up lighters in adoration of the band.  But there&#039;s also the kind where you lie down on the bed alone and get entranced.  Is one primary to the other?  I don&#039;t know, though it&#039;s true that 50,000 rampaging teenagers can do a lot more damage.
What do these academics make of, say, the Southern Baptist&#039;s emphasis on &quot;getting saved&quot;?  Do they just chalk it up to mass delusion?  A lot of these cats will tell you about the timbre of Jesus&#039;s voice.
Perhaps the eggheads are simply less amenable to altered states.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>i think that &#8216;mysticism&#8217; as the primary motive for religion is very much a minority force, though it exists in every tradition </i><br />
There&#8217;s the sort of music where 50,000 teenagers hold up lighters in adoration of the band.  But there&#8217;s also the kind where you lie down on the bed alone and get entranced.  Is one primary to the other?  I don&#8217;t know, though it&#8217;s true that 50,000 rampaging teenagers can do a lot more damage.<br />
What do these academics make of, say, the Southern Baptist&#8217;s emphasis on &#8220;getting saved&#8221;?  Do they just chalk it up to mass delusion?  A lot of these cats will tell you about the timbre of Jesus&#8217;s voice.<br />
Perhaps the eggheads are simply less amenable to altered states.</p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5609</link>
		<dc:creator>razib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5609</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Now, when I describe the &quot;universal nature of most&quot; slavery, you may balk.&lt;/i&gt;
a small subset of humans have commonly been slaves, though not all societies have been slave societies.  the vast majority of humans have been &#039;religious.&#039; slavery is specified by a simple set of characteristics, just as xenophobia is. it&#039;s a general term. religion as i&#039;m talking about exhibits specific characteristics.
also, as i said, religiosity has been shown to exhibit heritability. this is not to say there are &quot;religion genes,&quot; rather, the tendencies which make one receptive to religion are probably heritable.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Now, when I describe the &#8220;universal nature of most&#8221; slavery, you may balk.</i><br />
a small subset of humans have commonly been slaves, though not all societies have been slave societies.  the vast majority of humans have been &#8216;religious.&#8217; slavery is specified by a simple set of characteristics, just as xenophobia is. it&#8217;s a general term. religion as i&#8217;m talking about exhibits specific characteristics.<br />
also, as i said, religiosity has been shown to exhibit heritability. this is not to say there are &#8220;religion genes,&#8221; rather, the tendencies which make one receptive to religion are probably heritable.</p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5608</link>
		<dc:creator>razib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5608</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;FWIW, citing a religious text and claiming a specific religion is a solution to others problems in a general discussion is rude.&lt;/i&gt;
please don&#039;t respond to the xtian. i&#039;ve already deleted her idiotic conversionary attempts twice.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>FWIW, citing a religious text and claiming a specific religion is a solution to others problems in a general discussion is rude.</i><br />
please don&#8217;t respond to the xtian. i&#8217;ve already deleted her idiotic conversionary attempts twice.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5607</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5607</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
I do hope that this is &quot;Good News&quot; for you also.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
FWIW, citing a religious text and claiming a specific religion is a solution to others problems in a general discussion is rude.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
I do hope that this is &#8220;Good News&#8221; for you also.
</p></blockquote>
<p>FWIW, citing a religious text and claiming a specific religion is a solution to others problems in a general discussion is rude.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5606</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5606</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
I&#039;m skeptical of all attempts to identify genetic components to human behavior.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Though I don&#039;t have Moran&#039;s basis in evolutionary biology, I&#039;m tentatively skeptical as well.
For one, I don&#039;t see the difference between other behaviors and religion. For example, slavery can emerge &quot;due to the structural nature of the human mind and how it processes information&quot; as well. The psychology of ranking order, out-groups specifically to the extent that &quot;the others&quot; aren&#039;t human, and aggression, seems to be old mechanisms.
Now, when I describe the &quot;universal nature of most&quot; slavery, you may balk. ;-) After all, sexual slavery and thralls are very different. But, it seems all countries have succeeded in making slavery unlawful and mostly gone.
I&#039;m not satisfied with the motivations for claiming religion as different (as given here) or necessarily persistent.
I prefer to think of it as a moral choice, as for slavery.
&lt;blockquote&gt;
europe is post-christian, but not not secular.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Perhaps we have a confusion of definitions here. AFAIK secular means worldly, or religiously neutral. Many forms of supernaturalism, as beliefs in souls or astrology&#039;s &#039;instant and personal action&#039;, are non-religious.
So I would say that Europe as a whole is post-religious, but not atheistic. And note that EU is explicitly secular, as most European nations.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
I&#8217;m skeptical of all attempts to identify genetic components to human behavior.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Though I don&#8217;t have Moran&#8217;s basis in evolutionary biology, I&#8217;m tentatively skeptical as well.<br />
For one, I don&#8217;t see the difference between other behaviors and religion. For example, slavery can emerge &#8220;due to the structural nature of the human mind and how it processes information&#8221; as well. The psychology of ranking order, out-groups specifically to the extent that &#8220;the others&#8221; aren&#8217;t human, and aggression, seems to be old mechanisms.<br />
Now, when I describe the &#8220;universal nature of most&#8221; slavery, you may balk. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  After all, sexual slavery and thralls are very different. But, it seems all countries have succeeded in making slavery unlawful and mostly gone.<br />
I&#8217;m not satisfied with the motivations for claiming religion as different (as given here) or necessarily persistent.<br />
I prefer to think of it as a moral choice, as for slavery.</p>
<blockquote><p>
europe is post-christian, but not not secular.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Perhaps we have a confusion of definitions here. AFAIK secular means worldly, or religiously neutral. Many forms of supernaturalism, as beliefs in souls or astrology&#8217;s &#8216;instant and personal action&#8217;, are non-religious.<br />
So I would say that Europe as a whole is post-religious, but not atheistic. And note that EU is explicitly secular, as most European nations.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Brown</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5605</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5605</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the reference. I think you&#039;re entirely fair to all participants; and I agree with you that these explanations are compatible. In particular, the distinction you draw between what the sophisticated and educated believers actually take to be true about the world, and what the &quot;peasants&quot; take to be true is enormously important.
This leads, I think, to the insight Sloan Wilson almost has -- in many modern societies, and particularly within empires, group membership becomes voluntary. The competing groups become competing coalitions and in some -- perhaps many -- social circumstances it matters immensely that you should be part of the winning group, and not part of the group that loses at their expense. I think this one fact explains almost all the periods of heightened theological zeal in the world.
And so to Europe, where we can see something that might very well look like the beginnings of a revival in religious self-understanding. I think that&#039;s a better way to look at it than religious &quot;belief&quot;. There is a huge amount of superstition and magical thinking in modern Europe -- vide astrology, some forms of greenery, etc -- but if there is a revival of Christianity this will be largely because it is the one way of being absolutely non-Muslim.
Argh. All this will turn into something much longer over the summer, but for the moment I am still finishing the previous book.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the reference. I think you&#8217;re entirely fair to all participants; and I agree with you that these explanations are compatible. In particular, the distinction you draw between what the sophisticated and educated believers actually take to be true about the world, and what the &#8220;peasants&#8221; take to be true is enormously important.<br />
This leads, I think, to the insight Sloan Wilson almost has &#8212; in many modern societies, and particularly within empires, group membership becomes voluntary. The competing groups become competing coalitions and in some &#8212; perhaps many &#8212; social circumstances it matters immensely that you should be part of the winning group, and not part of the group that loses at their expense. I think this one fact explains almost all the periods of heightened theological zeal in the world.<br />
And so to Europe, where we can see something that might very well look like the beginnings of a revival in religious self-understanding. I think that&#8217;s a better way to look at it than religious &#8220;belief&#8221;. There is a huge amount of superstition and magical thinking in modern Europe &#8212; vide astrology, some forms of greenery, etc &#8212; but if there is a revival of Christianity this will be largely because it is the one way of being absolutely non-Muslim.<br />
Argh. All this will turn into something much longer over the summer, but for the moment I am still finishing the previous book.</p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5604</link>
		<dc:creator>razib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/04/23/levels-of-analysis-of-religion-atran-boyer-wilson/#comment-5604</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I especially get this feeling when something like GMOs or global warming is discussed- while I think the science&lt;/i&gt;
a lot of the anti-science opinions derive from innate psychological biases, e.g., i think part of the aversion of GMO food is due to essentialism (see paul bloom).  as i said, religion isn&#039;t a tightly specified trait rooted in specific genes, it&#039;s an emergent  property of our various psychological utilities.  &quot;zeal&quot; is often part of religion, but it is part of faith in gov., science, parents, etc.  so you&#039;re going to see broad correspondences.  i would argue that one of the major &quot;legs up&quot; that religion has over scientism, or faith in the scientists, is that one can have a personal relationship with god(s). this triggers our emotional centers and social intelligence.  the only way &quot;secular&quot; cults compete is through devotion to individuals involved in the enterprise of course.  e.g., ayn rand, the adulation of einstein, etc.  as i note above, i think there are reasons that these cults have shorter time horizon: individuals die and memories fade.  it might be of course that some gods are just supernatural elevations of just these figures (jesus?).
anyway,  i agree with your bigger point.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I especially get this feeling when something like GMOs or global warming is discussed- while I think the science</i><br />
a lot of the anti-science opinions derive from innate psychological biases, e.g., i think part of the aversion of GMO food is due to essentialism (see paul bloom).  as i said, religion isn&#8217;t a tightly specified trait rooted in specific genes, it&#8217;s an emergent  property of our various psychological utilities.  &#8220;zeal&#8221; is often part of religion, but it is part of faith in gov., science, parents, etc.  so you&#8217;re going to see broad correspondences.  i would argue that one of the major &#8220;legs up&#8221; that religion has over scientism, or faith in the scientists, is that one can have a personal relationship with god(s). this triggers our emotional centers and social intelligence.  the only way &#8220;secular&#8221; cults compete is through devotion to individuals involved in the enterprise of course.  e.g., ayn rand, the adulation of einstein, etc.  as i note above, i think there are reasons that these cults have shorter time horizon: individuals die and memories fade.  it might be of course that some gods are just supernatural elevations of just these figures (jesus?).<br />
anyway,  i agree with your bigger point.</p>
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