Comments on: Inbreeding & the downfall of the Spanish Hapsburgs http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/ Wed, 22 May 2013 06:36:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Robin http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15502 Robin Tue, 09 Jun 2009 23:21:11 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15502 There's another consanguinous relationship to factor in, because Isabella of Portugal wasn't really new blood. Her mother, Maria, was a sister of Juana of Castille, making Isabella and Charles V first cousins. More crossed branches! And at the end of the tree, it's typical that Charles II's sister, Margarita, married their maternal uncle, Leopold I... As you've discussed, inbreeding compromised their fertility as well. Interestingly, Leo commissioned a number of portraits of Margarita as she was growing up, and she appears much more normal than her brother Charles. Still, only one of her four live births survived infancy. There’s another consanguinous relationship to factor in, because Isabella of Portugal wasn’t really new blood. Her mother, Maria, was a sister of Juana of Castille, making Isabella and Charles V first cousins. More crossed branches! And at the end of the tree, it’s typical that Charles II’s sister, Margarita, married their maternal uncle, Leopold I… As you’ve discussed, inbreeding compromised their fertility as well. Interestingly, Leo commissioned a number of portraits of Margarita as she was growing up, and she appears much more normal than her brother Charles. Still, only one of her four live births survived infancy.

]]> By: Isabel http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15501 Isabel Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:25:53 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15501 "If your family try don't fork, you might be a Hapsburg." HaHa Thank you, though I think you mean tree. The redneck/West Virginia etc charge has actually been looked at and there is no evidence that these groups were any more inbred than other rural Americans (or humans in general through most of our history) at the time period the stereotype traces back to. It really is an ugly thing to say, about traditionally disadvantaged groups. In fact I believe the idea grew from reaction to photos of extremely poor mountain folk taken in the mid 1900's (WPA photos maybe?) “If your family try don’t fork, you might be a Hapsburg.”
HaHa Thank you, though I think you mean tree.
The redneck/West Virginia etc charge has actually been looked at and there is no evidence that these groups were any more inbred than other rural Americans (or humans in general through most of our history) at the time period the stereotype traces back to.
It really is an ugly thing to say, about traditionally disadvantaged groups. In fact I believe the idea grew from reaction to photos of extremely poor mountain folk taken in the mid 1900′s (WPA photos maybe?)

]]> By: Michael http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15500 Michael Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:15:22 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15500 For shame, people! Everyone knows rednecks have straight lines for family trees . . .(with apologies to Jeff Foxworthy) For shame, people! Everyone knows rednecks have straight lines for family trees . . .(with apologies to Jeff Foxworthy)

]]> By: Jello http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15499 Jello Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:08:23 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15499 As an imbred redneck, my parents are first cousins and I grew up in a rural area, I also find Joshua's remark rather obnoxious. Of all the cousins in my generation, none of whom are imbred MY parents being the odd balls, I am the only male to have earned a bachelors degree, so there. That being said that family tree is truly disturbing. Its unbelievable that the old European monarchs believed themselves chosen by God to rule as the superior class when they were less genetically fit then there subjects! What a truly unnatural system of governance it was. As an imbred redneck, my parents are first cousins and I grew up in a rural area, I also find Joshua’s remark rather obnoxious. Of all the cousins in my generation, none of whom are imbred MY parents being the odd balls, I am the only male to have earned a bachelors degree, so there.
That being said that family tree is truly disturbing. Its unbelievable that the old European monarchs believed themselves chosen by God to rule as the superior class when they were less genetically fit then there subjects! What a truly unnatural system of governance it was.

]]> By: Didac http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15498 Didac Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:49:50 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15498 However crippled Charles II was in fact, some contemporaneous historian took him in best regard: <a href="http://www.enciclopedia.cat/fitxa_v2.jsp?NDCHEC=0026373" rel="nofollow">Narcís Feliu de la Penya</a> said he was "the best king Spain has had". Of course, Feliu thought that the best possible king is an unambitious king more akin to peace and commerce than to warfare and more protecting than interfering. However crippled Charles II was in fact, some contemporaneous historian took him in best regard: Narcís Feliu de la Penya said he was “the best king Spain has had”. Of course, Feliu thought that the best possible king is an unambitious king more akin to peace and commerce than to warfare and more protecting than interfering.

]]> By: Alan Kellogg http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15497 Alan Kellogg Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:37:19 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15497 If your family try don't fork, you might be a Hapsburg. If your family try don’t fork, you might be a Hapsburg.

]]> By: stillwaggon http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15496 stillwaggon Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:42:34 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15496 Link to Ed Yong's post brings me back to this page. Otherwise, excellent post. Link to Ed Yong’s post brings me back to this page.
Otherwise, excellent post.

]]> By: Isabel http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15495 Isabel Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:40:47 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15495 "And now one rude remark: that genealogical tree looks like something out of a bad joke about a redneck. I almost expect someone in the tree to be named Billy Bob." Rude, yes, and offensive, as there is no evidence "rednecks" are any more inbred than anyone else. It's just the one group we allow ourselves to mock (scapegoat) and scapegoating is an ugly characteristic of human societies. Funny how we call the lower classes inbred, when it's the upper classes who are! “And now one rude remark: that genealogical tree looks like something out of a bad joke about a redneck. I almost expect someone in the tree to be named Billy Bob.”
Rude, yes, and offensive, as there is no evidence “rednecks” are any more inbred than anyone else.
It’s just the one group we allow ourselves to mock (scapegoat) and scapegoating is an ugly characteristic of human societies.
Funny how we call the lower classes inbred, when it’s the upper classes who are!

]]> By: Joshua Zelinsky http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15494 Joshua Zelinsky Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:15:03 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15494 That's a shocking degree of inbreeding that is made all the more clear when you crunch the numbers. The notion that they were more inbred than sibling pairings... wow. One question however about the infant mortality and the correlation v. causation issue: In medieval Europe the upper classes often were less healthy in general than the lower classes simply due to dietary reasons, primarily failure to consume enough vegetables(this is not the only example of that. In Japan there was a similar problem when the nobility consumed white rice while the rest consumed brown rice). I suspect that in this case the diet likely had an impact as well. On the other hand, we possibly aren't seeing the complete effect of the inbreeding here because infant mortality rates won't reflect any higher rate of miscarriage as a result of the bad alleles. And now one rude remark: that genealogical tree looks like something out of a bad joke about a redneck. I almost expect someone in the tree to be named Billy Bob. That’s a shocking degree of inbreeding that is made all the more clear when you crunch the numbers. The notion that they were more inbred than sibling pairings… wow.
One question however about the infant mortality and the correlation v. causation issue: In medieval Europe the upper classes often were less healthy in general than the lower classes simply due to dietary reasons, primarily failure to consume enough vegetables(this is not the only example of that. In Japan there was a similar problem when the nobility consumed white rice while the rest consumed brown rice). I suspect that in this case the diet likely had an impact as well.
On the other hand, we possibly aren’t seeing the complete effect of the inbreeding here because infant mortality rates won’t reflect any higher rate of miscarriage as a result of the bad alleles.
And now one rude remark: that genealogical tree looks like something out of a bad joke about a redneck. I almost expect someone in the tree to be named Billy Bob.

]]> By: John Emerson http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15493 John Emerson Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:34:15 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15493 At the 7th generation back there are 18 ancestors, where there would be 128 with perfect outbreeding. In the whole genealogy there are 42 names, compared to 254 with perfect outbreeding. At the 7th generation back there are 18 ancestors, where there would be 128 with perfect outbreeding. In the whole genealogy there are 42 names, compared to 254 with perfect outbreeding.

]]> By: Tom Bri http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15492 Tom Bri Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:44:00 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15492 Inbreeding doesn't necessarily result in mutational meltdown, if there is strong enough selection to eliminate carriers before they breed. We see this a lot in domesticated animals. Purebred breeders select very carefully which animals are going to create the next generation. I recall from my animal genetics class a discussion of a particular dairy bull which was bred back to some hundreds of his daughters without a single instance of any obvious genetic problem. I had a friend in college who was from the Canary Islands. He claimed that everyone from his home village was highly inbred, himself included, but that it didn't matter because life as a fisherman (which his family was) was so tough and dangerous that any genetic problems were quickly eliminated. Inbreeding doesn’t necessarily result in mutational meltdown, if there is strong enough selection to eliminate carriers before they breed. We see this a lot in domesticated animals. Purebred breeders select very carefully which animals are going to create the next generation.
I recall from my animal genetics class a discussion of a particular dairy bull which was bred back to some hundreds of his daughters without a single instance of any obvious genetic problem.
I had a friend in college who was from the Canary Islands. He claimed that everyone from his home village was highly inbred, himself included, but that it didn’t matter because life as a fisherman (which his family was) was so tough and dangerous that any genetic problems were quickly eliminated.

]]> By: Susan http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15491 Susan Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:07:27 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15491 I'm curious about the inbreeding that's going on in those polygamous Mormon sects in Canada and the U.S. Lots and lots of kids, very few fathers and pretty close knit communities. I’m curious about the inbreeding that’s going on in those polygamous Mormon sects in Canada and the U.S. Lots and lots of kids, very few fathers and pretty close knit communities.

]]> By: razib http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15490 razib Wed, 15 Apr 2009 05:50:44 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15490 who needs editors? thanks charles. who needs editors? thanks charles.

]]> By: Russell http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15489 Russell Wed, 15 Apr 2009 05:02:50 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15489 The Ptolemies were quite inbred. But what finally ended their dynasty was Cleopatra's efforts at outbreeding. Win some. Lose some. ;-) The Ptolemies were quite inbred. But what finally ended their dynasty was Cleopatra’s efforts at outbreeding. Win some. Lose some. ;-)

]]> By: Charles Iliya Krempeaux http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15488 Charles Iliya Krempeaux Wed, 15 Apr 2009 04:42:29 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15488 Razib, you said... <blockquote>Correlation is not causation, but correlation is necessary for an inference of correlation.</blockquote> I think you meant... "Correlation is not causation, but correlation is necessary for an inference of <strong>causation</strong>." Razib, you said…

Correlation is not causation, but correlation is necessary for an inference of correlation.

I think you meant… “Correlation is not causation, but correlation is necessary for an inference of causation.”

]]> By: Pierce R. Butler http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15487 Pierce R. Butler Wed, 15 Apr 2009 03:41:28 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15487 This inbreeding was widely noted at the time: An apparently unsubstantiated but persistent legend has it that many of the Hapsburgs were born with distinct tails. James Watson & Andrew Berry's <i><a href="http://www.wnyc.org/books/13733" rel="nofollow">DNA: The Secret of Life</a></i> reports that - <blockquote>One of the most famous examples of a long-lived trait is known as the "Hapsburg Lip." This distinctive elongation of the jaw and droopiness to the lower lip-which made the Hapsburg rulers of Europe such a nightmare assignment for generations of court portrait painters-was passed down intact over at least twenty-three generations.</blockquote> This inbreeding was widely noted at the time: An apparently unsubstantiated but persistent legend has it that many of the Hapsburgs were born with distinct tails.
James Watson & Andrew Berry’s DNA: The Secret of Life reports that -

One of the most famous examples of a long-lived trait is known as the “Hapsburg Lip.” This distinctive elongation of the jaw and droopiness to the lower lip-which made the Hapsburg rulers of Europe such a nightmare assignment for generations of court portrait painters-was passed down intact over at least twenty-three generations.

]]> By: John Emerson http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15486 John Emerson Wed, 15 Apr 2009 01:32:58 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/inbreeding-the-downfall-of-the-spanish-hapsburgs/#comment-15486 <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor" rel="nofollow">Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I "Hogmouth"</a> <a href="http://www.cointalk.com/forum/attachments/13161d1158365348-leopoldo.jpg" rel="nofollow">Hogmouth coin</a> Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I “Hogmouth”
Hogmouth coin

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