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	<title>Comments on: The three layers of the Neandertal cake</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/</link>
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		<title>By: What are the Implications of the Sequencing of the Neanderthal Genome? &#171; The Amazing World of Psychiatry: A Psychiatry Blog</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/#comment-21848</link>
		<dc:creator>What are the Implications of the Sequencing of the Neanderthal Genome? &#171; The Amazing World of Psychiatry: A Psychiatry Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 May 2010 23:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4074#comment-21848</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8211; interesting discussion of the [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8211; interesting discussion of the [...] </p>
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		<title>By: tdaxp, Ph.D. &#187; Blog Archive &#187; We, the Neanderthals</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/#comment-21847</link>
		<dc:creator>tdaxp, Ph.D. &#187; Blog Archive &#187; We, the Neanderthals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 14:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4074#comment-21847</guid>
		<description>[...] I assume by now that everyone has read A Draft Sequence of the Neandertal Genome. It’s free to all... [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I assume by now that everyone has read A Draft Sequence of the Neandertal Genome. It’s free to all&#8230; [...] </p>
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		<title>By: mike shupp</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/#comment-21846</link>
		<dc:creator>mike shupp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 12:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4074#comment-21846</guid>
		<description>PG -  &quot;Am I wrong on this?&quot;

No, not really.  OTOH, there&#039;s always been a large group of people - including anthropologists - who have argued for over a century that Neandertals were  far less intelligent than Homo sapiens. Not by 3-4 IQ points, as we&#039;d put things today, but by 30-40 IQ points.  I.e., Neandertals were animals with semi-human shape but who lacked the religion, the inventiveness, the curiosity, the magnficent soul, the truly upright stature,  the art and music, the Nazi party card, etc. of  &quot;real&quot;  humans.

They were like dark skinned Spanish folk without immigration papers, running around in Phoenix, leering at respectable wealthy Republicans.   You get the idea?

So.  Trying to make the case that H sapiens sapiens and H sapiens neandertalis were basically brothers under the skin is always going to be an uphill fight.  If you would like to make that argument, it is not clever to agree at the onset of the discussion that &quot;no, we don&#039;t know exactly how CroMagnons and Neandertals would have scored on modern day IQ tests and possibly there was a noticable difference.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PG &#8211;  &#8220;Am I wrong on this?&#8221;</p>
<p>No, not really.  OTOH, there&#8217;s always been a large group of people &#8211; including anthropologists &#8211; who have argued for over a century that Neandertals were  far less intelligent than Homo sapiens. Not by 3-4 IQ points, as we&#8217;d put things today, but by 30-40 IQ points.  I.e., Neandertals were animals with semi-human shape but who lacked the religion, the inventiveness, the curiosity, the magnficent soul, the truly upright stature,  the art and music, the Nazi party card, etc. of  &#8220;real&#8221;  humans.</p>
<p>They were like dark skinned Spanish folk without immigration papers, running around in Phoenix, leering at respectable wealthy Republicans.   You get the idea?</p>
<p>So.  Trying to make the case that H sapiens sapiens and H sapiens neandertalis were basically brothers under the skin is always going to be an uphill fight.  If you would like to make that argument, it is not clever to agree at the onset of the discussion that &#8220;no, we don&#8217;t know exactly how CroMagnons and Neandertals would have scored on modern day IQ tests and possibly there was a noticable difference.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: dave chamberlin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/#comment-21845</link>
		<dc:creator>dave chamberlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 13:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4074#comment-21845</guid>
		<description>Ny first instinct was to correct Nick Patterson&#039;s statement that Neanderthals were as smart as us, afterall there is little evidence of our inventiveness in their traces. But then I thought about it some more and realized we don&#039;t have the intellegence to succeed/survive in their world any more than they would in ours. Strange new world we live in, interesting times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ny first instinct was to correct Nick Patterson&#8217;s statement that Neanderthals were as smart as us, afterall there is little evidence of our inventiveness in their traces. But then I thought about it some more and realized we don&#8217;t have the intellegence to succeed/survive in their world any more than they would in ours. Strange new world we live in, interesting times.</p>
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		<title>By: Better prediction through better measurement &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/#comment-21844</link>
		<dc:creator>Better prediction through better measurement &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 11:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4074#comment-21844</guid>
		<description>[...] pigmentation is likely a major target of natural selection as well, as I suggested in relation to Neandertals. The results are sometimes confusing, but it does seem that pigmentation related loci are enriched [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] pigmentation is likely a major target of natural selection as well, as I suggested in relation to Neandertals. The results are sometimes confusing, but it does seem that pigmentation related loci are enriched [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Jim Bender</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/#comment-21843</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Bender</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 17:41:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4074#comment-21843</guid>
		<description>I had not considered that if Neanderthals and &quot;modern humans&quot; produced fertile children, that we were in fact of the same species. E. M. Smith had some good comments on his blog, with a picture: &lt;a href=&quot;http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2010/05/06/my-inner-neanderthal/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Musings from the ChiefIO&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had not considered that if Neanderthals and &#8220;modern humans&#8221; produced fertile children, that we were in fact of the same species. E. M. Smith had some good comments on his blog, with a picture: <a href="http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2010/05/06/my-inner-neanderthal/" rel="nofollow">Musings from the ChiefIO</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention The three layers of the Neandertal cake &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Discover Magazine -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/#comment-21842</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention The three layers of the Neandertal cake &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Discover Magazine -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 06:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4074#comment-21842</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by ResearchBlogging.org, razib khan, Ron Simon, Jeff C. Coleman, Gerry Ward and others. Gerry Ward said: Three layers of the Neandertal cake - great explanations for the lay person on this controversial topic http://icio.us/5yareg [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by ResearchBlogging.org, razib khan, Ron Simon, Jeff C. Coleman, Gerry Ward and others. Gerry Ward said: Three layers of the Neandertal cake &#8211; great explanations for the lay person on this controversial topic <a href="http://icio.us/5yareg" rel="nofollow">http://icio.us/5yareg</a> [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/#comment-21841</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 04:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4074#comment-21841</guid>
		<description>i was just dawgin&#039; on nick cuz i believe he is one of the neanderkind himself in part :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i was just dawgin&#8217; on nick cuz i believe he is one of the neanderkind himself in part <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Clement</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/#comment-21840</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Clement</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 03:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4074#comment-21840</guid>
		<description>RK: what is this “they” and “us”?

Could he have meant present day modern humans rather than an ancestral modern human? The rest of his comment seems to be referring to modern humans using the present tense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RK: what is this “they” and “us”?</p>
<p>Could he have meant present day modern humans rather than an ancestral modern human? The rest of his comment seems to be referring to modern humans using the present tense.</p>
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		<title>By: News Round-Up: May 2010. Neanderthal Special. &#171; The Amazing World of Psychiatry: A Psychiatry Blog</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/#comment-21839</link>
		<dc:creator>News Round-Up: May 2010. Neanderthal Special. &#171; The Amazing World of Psychiatry: A Psychiatry Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 00:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4074#comment-21839</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8211; interesting discussion of the [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8211; interesting discussion of the [...] </p>
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		<title>By: PG</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/#comment-21838</link>
		<dc:creator>PG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 04:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4074#comment-21838</guid>
		<description>&quot;I see no reason to think that they were not as smart as us.&quot;

Why?  Is there any good reason (non-political) for assuming that &quot;we&quot; today are exactly as intelligent (however you want to define it - g perhaps? or some other way?) on average as &quot;we&quot; were pre-holocene (or even a few thousand years ago)?  Cochran and Harpending make a plausible argument in &quot;The 10,000 Year Explosion&quot; that humans may have changed mentally even over the course of recorded history.  They could be wrong, but I see no reason why we should presume this as a matter of course.  Are all human populations today even exactly the same in their distributions of &quot;talents and temperaments&quot; (to use Pinker&#039;s phrase), or at least in the underlying genetic influences on these traits?  It might be so, but mammalian species whose distribution covers a wide geographic and ecological range and are partially isolated from one another (either geographically or socially - e.g. Cochran, Harpending and Hardy paper) often exhibit significant genetically influenced phenotypic differences in the distributions of traits.  From what I&#039;ve read on the subject, we don&#039;t yet seem to understand the genetic influences on intelligence well enough to say one way or the other whether different groups of Homo Sapiens (either from the past or contemporary) are/were or are/were not as smart as each other and it makes no sense to make an assumption either way, but to treat either hypothesis as plausible.  I would, however, find it highly surprising if Neandertals were  exactly the same mentally as modern humans whose ancestors have been living in large, settled, heirarchical, agricultural civilizations for thousands of years.  Am I wrong on this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I see no reason to think that they were not as smart as us.&#8221;</p>
<p>Why?  Is there any good reason (non-political) for assuming that &#8220;we&#8221; today are exactly as intelligent (however you want to define it &#8211; g perhaps? or some other way?) on average as &#8220;we&#8221; were pre-holocene (or even a few thousand years ago)?  Cochran and Harpending make a plausible argument in &#8220;The 10,000 Year Explosion&#8221; that humans may have changed mentally even over the course of recorded history.  They could be wrong, but I see no reason why we should presume this as a matter of course.  Are all human populations today even exactly the same in their distributions of &#8220;talents and temperaments&#8221; (to use Pinker&#8217;s phrase), or at least in the underlying genetic influences on these traits?  It might be so, but mammalian species whose distribution covers a wide geographic and ecological range and are partially isolated from one another (either geographically or socially &#8211; e.g. Cochran, Harpending and Hardy paper) often exhibit significant genetically influenced phenotypic differences in the distributions of traits.  From what I&#8217;ve read on the subject, we don&#8217;t yet seem to understand the genetic influences on intelligence well enough to say one way or the other whether different groups of Homo Sapiens (either from the past or contemporary) are/were or are/were not as smart as each other and it makes no sense to make an assumption either way, but to treat either hypothesis as plausible.  I would, however, find it highly surprising if Neandertals were  exactly the same mentally as modern humans whose ancestors have been living in large, settled, heirarchical, agricultural civilizations for thousands of years.  Am I wrong on this?</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/#comment-21837</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 May 2010 20:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4074#comment-21837</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;and I see no reason to think that &lt;b&gt;they&lt;/b&gt; were not as smart as &lt;b&gt;us&lt;/b&gt;.&lt;/i&gt;

what is this &quot;they&quot; and &quot;us&quot;? if these results are correct that would imply that you are asserting that some of *your* ancestors were as smart as pure humans :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>and I see no reason to think that <b>they</b> were not as smart as <b>us</b>.</i></p>
<p>what is this &#8220;they&#8221; and &#8220;us&#8221;? if these results are correct that would imply that you are asserting that some of *your* ancestors were as smart as pure humans <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Nick Patterson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/the-three-layers-of-the-neandertal-cake/#comment-21836</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Patterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 May 2010 20:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4074#comment-21836</guid>
		<description>I am a coauthor of this paper, but I wanted to comment on the
intelligence of Neandertals, which is outside my professional competence.
Head size at birth seems to have been
about the same for Neandertals and modern humans, and
childbirth is not easy for us, and almost certainly not for them.   Further,  adult brain size
was similar (maybe even a little larger for Neandertals).

An interesting paper on Neandertal childbirth is:
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/20/8151.full

Given the difficulty of childbirth it must be true that a large brain was under strong positive selection in Neandertals, and I see no reason to think that they were not as smart as us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a coauthor of this paper, but I wanted to comment on the<br />
intelligence of Neandertals, which is outside my professional competence.<br />
Head size at birth seems to have been<br />
about the same for Neandertals and modern humans, and<br />
childbirth is not easy for us, and almost certainly not for them.   Further,  adult brain size<br />
was similar (maybe even a little larger for Neandertals).</p>
<p>An interesting paper on Neandertal childbirth is:<br />
<a href="http://www.pnas.org/content/106/20/8151.full" rel="nofollow">http://www.pnas.org/content/106/20/8151.full</a></p>
<p>Given the difficulty of childbirth it must be true that a large brain was under strong positive selection in Neandertals, and I see no reason to think that they were not as smart as us.</p>
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