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	<title>Comments on: Cuckoldry more common in past generations</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/</link>
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		<title>By: Douglas Knight</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22520</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22520</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s clear what conclusion to draw from Sykes, but what does Genghis tell us? All we know is that his Y chromosome is widespread, not that it&#039;s correlated with a name, right? So it could be that it spread via cuckoldry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s clear what conclusion to draw from Sykes, but what does Genghis tell us? All we know is that his Y chromosome is widespread, not that it&#8217;s correlated with a name, right? So it could be that it spread via cuckoldry.</p>
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		<title>By: ren</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22519</link>
		<dc:creator>ren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 04:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22519</guid>
		<description>There was more pressure to marry the undesired man in the past.. because of economic dependence.. and thus more desire to have sex with the desired man..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was more pressure to marry the undesired man in the past.. because of economic dependence.. and thus more desire to have sex with the desired man..</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Galbi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22518</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Galbi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 00:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22518</guid>
		<description>Given the disparate samples, testing technologies, and reporting accuracy, even a point estimate of &quot;paternity discrepancy&quot; or &quot;nonpaternity&quot; has a wide range of error (including definitional inconsistency).  Here&#039;s a review of the Anderson data collection (your previous post), and additional data, including non-human data and behavioral data:
http://purplemotes.net/2009/12/13/social-fundamentals/

It seems to me that the most plausible estimate of the share of children in high-income Western countries who currently hold false beliefs about who their biological fathers are is roughly 5%.  The share of men who don&#039;t know who their biological children are likely differs from that figure by more than one or two percentage points.  The Anderson paper doesn&#039;t even recognize this important distinction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given the disparate samples, testing technologies, and reporting accuracy, even a point estimate of &#8220;paternity discrepancy&#8221; or &#8220;nonpaternity&#8221; has a wide range of error (including definitional inconsistency).  Here&#8217;s a review of the Anderson data collection (your previous post), and additional data, including non-human data and behavioral data:<br />
<a href="http://purplemotes.net/2009/12/13/social-fundamentals/" rel="nofollow">http://purplemotes.net/2009/12/13/social-fundamentals/</a></p>
<p>It seems to me that the most plausible estimate of the share of children in high-income Western countries who currently hold false beliefs about who their biological fathers are is roughly 5%.  The share of men who don&#8217;t know who their biological children are likely differs from that figure by more than one or two percentage points.  The Anderson paper doesn&#8217;t even recognize this important distinction.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Malloy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22517</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Malloy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 04:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22517</guid>
		<description>Logically, I would imagine nonpaternity rates over time map on to other positive social indicators &lt;a href=&quot;http://isteve.blogspot.com/2010/06/minnesota-challenge.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;which mostly move in unison&lt;/a&gt;. You can probably get a roughly accurate picture of how much cuckoldry is going on by simply knowing the murder rate (or GDP, HDI, IQ, etc).

Even eye-balling the charts in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Anderson review&lt;/a&gt;, you get a sense of higher rates as you move backwards through the 20th century (see coldequation&#039;s comment). Is this maybe an artifact of less accurate methods of testing paternity? Probably not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Logically, I would imagine nonpaternity rates over time map on to other positive social indicators <a href="http://isteve.blogspot.com/2010/06/minnesota-challenge.html" rel="nofollow">which mostly move in unison</a>. You can probably get a roughly accurate picture of how much cuckoldry is going on by simply knowing the murder rate (or GDP, HDI, IQ, etc).</p>
<p>Even eye-balling the charts in the <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/" rel="nofollow">Anderson review</a>, you get a sense of higher rates as you move backwards through the 20th century (see coldequation&#8217;s comment). Is this maybe an artifact of less accurate methods of testing paternity? Probably not.</p>
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		<title>By: gcochran</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22516</link>
		<dc:creator>gcochran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 03:13:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22516</guid>
		<description>If we&#039;re talking rates of cuckoldry, we probably need to be a bit more specific than &#039; the past&#039;.  Do I think that it was lower when the country&#039;s population was primarily rural?  Sure. What about 1970 compared to now?  I don&#039;t know. What about this meta-analysis?  I think it&#039;s probably nonsense.

     In the near future,  ubiquitious sequencing  applied to genealogy will supply the real numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we&#8217;re talking rates of cuckoldry, we probably need to be a bit more specific than &#8216; the past&#8217;.  Do I think that it was lower when the country&#8217;s population was primarily rural?  Sure. What about 1970 compared to now?  I don&#8217;t know. What about this meta-analysis?  I think it&#8217;s probably nonsense.</p>
<p>     In the near future,  ubiquitious sequencing  applied to genealogy will supply the real numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22515</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 23:08:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22515</guid>
		<description>jason, did you send me a copy of the paper?

one issue might be that over the long term cuckoldry might not matter much if these lineages are low status. sykes, the macdonalds, genghis khan haplotype, indicate the high fidelity rates of women who marry into high status lineages (or perhaps the high level of control and monitoring these lineages can employ).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jason, did you send me a copy of the paper?</p>
<p>one issue might be that over the long term cuckoldry might not matter much if these lineages are low status. sykes, the macdonalds, genghis khan haplotype, indicate the high fidelity rates of women who marry into high status lineages (or perhaps the high level of control and monitoring these lineages can employ).</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Malloy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22514</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Malloy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 22:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22514</guid>
		<description>When I &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/10/paternity-uncertainty-the-present-the-past/#comment-18032&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;linked this paper&lt;/a&gt; last year, Gregory Cochran made a comment that suggested extreme incredulity based on some genetic data:

Jason Malloy: &lt;i&gt;&quot;A newer meta-analysis by Martin Voracek &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19320216&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;confirms that&lt;/a&gt; nonpaternity rates are about 2-3%, but also finds that nonpaternity has decreased by almost 1% per decade in developed nations, suggesting that the 5-10% estimate was more accurate in the not too distant past.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

gcochran: &lt;i&gt;&quot;Adultery was a lot easier for farm wives…. except, obviously, if they were named Sykes.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

He also seems to suggest it&#039;s implausible that rural housewives in smaller, intimate communities are more adulterous than &quot;liberated&quot; women with jobs and independent social lives in larger, anonymous communities.

But I find the Voracek review convincing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/10/paternity-uncertainty-the-present-the-past/#comment-18032" rel="nofollow">linked this paper</a> last year, Gregory Cochran made a comment that suggested extreme incredulity based on some genetic data:</p>
<p>Jason Malloy: <i>&#8220;A newer meta-analysis by Martin Voracek <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19320216" rel="nofollow">confirms that</a> nonpaternity rates are about 2-3%, but also finds that nonpaternity has decreased by almost 1% per decade in developed nations, suggesting that the 5-10% estimate was more accurate in the not too distant past.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>gcochran: <i>&#8220;Adultery was a lot easier for farm wives…. except, obviously, if they were named Sykes.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>He also seems to suggest it&#8217;s implausible that rural housewives in smaller, intimate communities are more adulterous than &#8220;liberated&#8221; women with jobs and independent social lives in larger, anonymous communities.</p>
<p>But I find the Voracek review convincing.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22513</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 20:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22513</guid>
		<description>fia, don&#039;t confound ultimate evolutionary ends for proximate bio-behavioral means. IOW, even assuming the logic of extra-pair copulation, all the biology is still in place, contraception just blocks the ultimate outcome. additionally, i&#039;m moderately skeptical of the generalizability of drive toward females seeking genetic quality through extra-pair copulation among humans.  it seems a high risk strategy for a species&#039; females when they don&#039;t have that many gestations to expend. i suspect humans (male and female) have &quot;front-loaded&quot; a lot of these assessments pre-pairing since reproduction is a high investment task for both (more for females than males, but still for males).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fia, don&#8217;t confound ultimate evolutionary ends for proximate bio-behavioral means. IOW, even assuming the logic of extra-pair copulation, all the biology is still in place, contraception just blocks the ultimate outcome. additionally, i&#8217;m moderately skeptical of the generalizability of drive toward females seeking genetic quality through extra-pair copulation among humans.  it seems a high risk strategy for a species&#8217; females when they don&#8217;t have that many gestations to expend. i suspect humans (male and female) have &#8220;front-loaded&#8221; a lot of these assessments pre-pairing since reproduction is a high investment task for both (more for females than males, but still for males).</p>
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		<title>By: Fia</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22512</link>
		<dc:creator>Fia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 20:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22512</guid>
		<description>Ha. This feels right, but once one ignores the fact that it&#039;s about humans, its a somewhat unexpected result. Females are expected to seek extra-pair copulations for reasons of genetic quality, - thus siring of offspring is assumed to be the desired result of extra-pair sex, not undesired. In that case, the introduction of effective contraceptives should not affect non-paternity rates. But, in humans, of course, it is assumed that women seek extra-martial sex for the pure reason of pleasure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha. This feels right, but once one ignores the fact that it&#8217;s about humans, its a somewhat unexpected result. Females are expected to seek extra-pair copulations for reasons of genetic quality, &#8211; thus siring of offspring is assumed to be the desired result of extra-pair sex, not undesired. In that case, the introduction of effective contraceptives should not affect non-paternity rates. But, in humans, of course, it is assumed that women seek extra-martial sex for the pure reason of pleasure.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22511</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 18:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22511</guid>
		<description>karthik, fair point. i did think of that and i didn&#039;t view it as you do, but that&#039;s a matter of taste.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>karthik, fair point. i did think of that and i didn&#8217;t view it as you do, but that&#8217;s a matter of taste.</p>
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		<title>By: Karthik Durvasula</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22510</link>
		<dc:creator>Karthik Durvasula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22510</guid>
		<description>Actually, Razib, the opposite conclusion is surely warranted (unless I am missing some crucial piece of data).

The rates 1%/ decade. But they are at least two major factors that could have decreased the rates:
1) a variety of contraception methods ( a huge factor)
2) single motherhood is also not as much of a taboo, anymore.

Given that these factors influence the absolute nonpaternity numbers, we should not use the the absolute non-paternity rates as proxy for the degree of cuckolding in the culture.

In fact, if you &quot;correct&quot; the absolute value for (1-2), then you will get a number that might be used as a proxy for &quot;degree of cuckolding in the culture&quot; - my guess is it will be far more than a &quot;3%&quot; increase - thereby lending some measure of credence to the traditionalist view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Razib, the opposite conclusion is surely warranted (unless I am missing some crucial piece of data).</p>
<p>The rates 1%/ decade. But they are at least two major factors that could have decreased the rates:<br />
1) a variety of contraception methods ( a huge factor)<br />
2) single motherhood is also not as much of a taboo, anymore.</p>
<p>Given that these factors influence the absolute nonpaternity numbers, we should not use the the absolute non-paternity rates as proxy for the degree of cuckolding in the culture.</p>
<p>In fact, if you &#8220;correct&#8221; the absolute value for (1-2), then you will get a number that might be used as a proxy for &#8220;degree of cuckolding in the culture&#8221; &#8211; my guess is it will be far more than a &#8220;3%&#8221; increase &#8211; thereby lending some measure of credence to the traditionalist view.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22509</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:47:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22509</guid>
		<description>by definition they&#039;re not misattributed (i.e., the father knows he&#039;s not the biological father by definition). you have to pretty dumb to think that your stepchildren or adoptive children are your own biological offspring ;-) though perhaps there are morons out there demanding paternity testing on their stepchildren, i don&#039;t know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>by definition they&#8217;re not misattributed (i.e., the father knows he&#8217;s not the biological father by definition). you have to pretty dumb to think that your stepchildren or adoptive children are your own biological offspring <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  though perhaps there are morons out there demanding paternity testing on their stepchildren, i don&#8217;t know.</p>
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		<title>By: jemand</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22508</link>
		<dc:creator>jemand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:44:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22508</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure step children and adopted children were excluded?  Are the rates constant or increasing when taking into account step children?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure step children and adopted children were excluded?  Are the rates constant or increasing when taking into account step children?</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Cuckoldry more common in past generations &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Discover Magazine -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/cuckoldry-more-common-in-past-generations/#comment-22507</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Cuckoldry more common in past generations &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Discover Magazine -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4487#comment-22507</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by razib khan and Ron Simon, Richard Lubbock. Richard Lubbock said: Cuckoldry more common in past generations - Gene Expression http://bit.ly/biUm6S [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by razib khan and Ron Simon, Richard Lubbock. Richard Lubbock said: Cuckoldry more common in past generations &#8211; Gene Expression <a href="http://bit.ly/biUm6S" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/biUm6S</a> [...] </p>
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