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	<title>Comments on: Genetics &amp; the Jews (it&#8217;s still complicated)</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/</link>
	<description>Human evolution, genetics, genomics and their interstices</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 17:19:01 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: nebbish</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-25039</link>
		<dc:creator>nebbish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jun 2010 02:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-25039</guid>
		<description>Benj,

Your statement above is a bit unclear, but if you meant that Ashkenazi Jews are not genetically much assimilated to Europe at all, that is not exactly correct.  The Fst data calculated in this study suggests that the genetic distance between Ashkenazim and European host populations is roughly equal to the distance between Ashkenazim and Levantines.  The Atzmon paper discussed on this blog earlier actually gave an admixture estimate of 30-60%, although in his interview with Ostrer in the NYT, Nicholas Wade quotes Prof. Ostrer offering the 30% number, possibly for simplicity sake (and the quote did not specify Ashkenazim, IRC).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benj,</p>
<p>Your statement above is a bit unclear, but if you meant that Ashkenazi Jews are not genetically much assimilated to Europe at all, that is not exactly correct.  The Fst data calculated in this study suggests that the genetic distance between Ashkenazim and European host populations is roughly equal to the distance between Ashkenazim and Levantines.  The Atzmon paper discussed on this blog earlier actually gave an admixture estimate of 30-60%, although in his interview with Ostrer in the NYT, Nicholas Wade quotes Prof. Ostrer offering the 30% number, possibly for simplicity sake (and the quote did not specify Ashkenazim, IRC).</p>
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		<title>By: benj</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-25023</link>
		<dc:creator>benj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-25023</guid>
		<description>&quot;Benj, how can you be so absolute? Besides Spanish Jews who settled mostly in the cities, look European, and have Andalusian traditions, where did all the Jews living in rural areas, in the mountains, in remote villages, come from? How did they get their Berber names and how come they only spoke Berber? How come they have common traditions with their Muslim (?) neighbours? I agree nothing is sure, but nothing is unsure either!&quot;

There was a Jewish community in North Africa for 2000 or 2500 years. More Jews came from Spain later. There is no source, no documentation, no traces of any Berber tribe converting to Judaism ever. And now we have genetic studies who just show that the North African Jews are closer to Russian Jews than to Berbers and Arabs. The surprise being that Ashkenazi Jews are not more assimilated to the European environment were they used to live.
Regarding names, well I have a 100% Jewish aunt whose name is &quot;Christiane&quot; - the least Jewish name possible. My grand mother had a Arabic name (Nedjma), my parents and uncles had French names, my generation was a French-Hebrew mix, my children and nefew generation is 100% Hebrew names. Jews have adopted the names and languages of the society where they live during all history. Jews had  and still have Persian names (Esther and Mordekhai), Greek names, Roman names, Arabic names, French names, American names.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Benj, how can you be so absolute? Besides Spanish Jews who settled mostly in the cities, look European, and have Andalusian traditions, where did all the Jews living in rural areas, in the mountains, in remote villages, come from? How did they get their Berber names and how come they only spoke Berber? How come they have common traditions with their Muslim (?) neighbours? I agree nothing is sure, but nothing is unsure either!&#8221;</p>
<p>There was a Jewish community in North Africa for 2000 or 2500 years. More Jews came from Spain later. There is no source, no documentation, no traces of any Berber tribe converting to Judaism ever. And now we have genetic studies who just show that the North African Jews are closer to Russian Jews than to Berbers and Arabs. The surprise being that Ashkenazi Jews are not more assimilated to the European environment were they used to live.<br />
Regarding names, well I have a 100% Jewish aunt whose name is &#8220;Christiane&#8221; &#8211; the least Jewish name possible. My grand mother had a Arabic name (Nedjma), my parents and uncles had French names, my generation was a French-Hebrew mix, my children and nefew generation is 100% Hebrew names. Jews have adopted the names and languages of the society where they live during all history. Jews had  and still have Persian names (Esther and Mordekhai), Greek names, Roman names, Arabic names, French names, American names.</p>
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		<title>By: onur</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-25022</link>
		<dc:creator>onur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:43:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-25022</guid>
		<description>I will repeat what I&#039;ve been saying: Despite being genetically largely Caucasoid, Moroccans have many genetic components easily distinguishable from Iberians (even just in their Caucasoid portions).  Jews (no matter which Jewish group they are from) are also genetically easily distinguishable from both Moroccans and Iberians in many of their components. So don&#039;t come to a decision so fast, and also don&#039;t forget that genetic technologies and knowledge are accumulating very fast. If you have nothing more to say, this will be my last post to you on this thread. It was a pleasure for me to make an exchange of information and ideas with you, the son of Andalus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will repeat what I&#8217;ve been saying: Despite being genetically largely Caucasoid, Moroccans have many genetic components easily distinguishable from Iberians (even just in their Caucasoid portions).  Jews (no matter which Jewish group they are from) are also genetically easily distinguishable from both Moroccans and Iberians in many of their components. So don&#8217;t come to a decision so fast, and also don&#8217;t forget that genetic technologies and knowledge are accumulating very fast. If you have nothing more to say, this will be my last post to you on this thread. It was a pleasure for me to make an exchange of information and ideas with you, the son of Andalus.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-25021</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-25021</guid>
		<description>there are a lot of comments on this thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>there are a lot of comments on this thread.</p>
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		<title>By: Mohammed Lebbadi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-25016</link>
		<dc:creator>Mohammed Lebbadi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 11:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-25016</guid>
		<description>I will conclude my thoughts and finish and let you ponder this: you suggested I test myself, and I wonder what that would show, nothing concrete in my opinion. My father as mentioned above thought we were not Moriscos and had ties to Yemen, but the original Yemeni settled in southern Spain where by then there was a big population of Ibero-Berbers and Ibero-others. Obviously there were intermarriages because the immigrants were largely males. And then here and only recently: both my grandmothers have Morisco names (&quot;Sordo&quot; and &quot;Medina&quot;) and there was a ggmother whose name says they were originally Jews from Andalus (&quot;Benjelloun&quot;), so the results of the testing can show anything you want! Have a good day!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will conclude my thoughts and finish and let you ponder this: you suggested I test myself, and I wonder what that would show, nothing concrete in my opinion. My father as mentioned above thought we were not Moriscos and had ties to Yemen, but the original Yemeni settled in southern Spain where by then there was a big population of Ibero-Berbers and Ibero-others. Obviously there were intermarriages because the immigrants were largely males. And then here and only recently: both my grandmothers have Morisco names (&#8220;Sordo&#8221; and &#8220;Medina&#8221;) and there was a ggmother whose name says they were originally Jews from Andalus (&#8220;Benjelloun&#8221;), so the results of the testing can show anything you want! Have a good day!</p>
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		<title>By: onur</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-25015</link>
		<dc:creator>onur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 10:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-25015</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;it includes Spaniards, Moroccans and Turks among other Mediterranean populations&lt;/i&gt;

I think it would be more correct and unambiguous to use &quot;besides&quot; or &quot;in addition to&quot; here instead of &quot;among&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>it includes Spaniards, Moroccans and Turks among other Mediterranean populations</i></p>
<p>I think it would be more correct and unambiguous to use &#8220;besides&#8221; or &#8220;in addition to&#8221; here instead of &#8220;among&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: onur</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-25014</link>
		<dc:creator>onur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 09:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-25014</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;a colloquial form&lt;/i&gt;

It would be better if I used &quot;the&quot; here instead of &quot;a&quot;, as I was exclusively talking about Iberia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>a colloquial form</i></p>
<p>It would be better if I used &#8220;the&#8221; here instead of &#8220;a&#8221;, as I was exclusively talking about Iberia.</p>
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		<title>By: onur</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-25013</link>
		<dc:creator>onur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 09:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-25013</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;About the special language, it was a mixture of Tamazight (Berber) and Iberian, the soldiers didn’t speak Arabic.&lt;/i&gt;

But eventually Iberian Arabic became the dominant language among Iberian Muslims, as it was the prestige language or rather a colloquial form (but nevertheless prestigious) of the real prestige language (Classical Arabic).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>About the special language, it was a mixture of Tamazight (Berber) and Iberian, the soldiers didn’t speak Arabic.</i></p>
<p>But eventually Iberian Arabic became the dominant language among Iberian Muslims, as it was the prestige language or rather a colloquial form (but nevertheless prestigious) of the real prestige language (Classical Arabic).</p>
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		<title>By: onur</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-25012</link>
		<dc:creator>onur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 09:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-25012</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I would agree with you if it was a neutral name&lt;/i&gt;

Abdallah means God&#039;s servant in Arabic, and as Allah has been the name Christians and Jews have used for their God when speaking Arabic, Persian or Turkish, it is very normal for them to take it as a name. After all, being a servant of God is fully in accordance with Christian and Jewish theologies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I would agree with you if it was a neutral name</i></p>
<p>Abdallah means God&#8217;s servant in Arabic, and as Allah has been the name Christians and Jews have used for their God when speaking Arabic, Persian or Turkish, it is very normal for them to take it as a name. After all, being a servant of God is fully in accordance with Christian and Jewish theologies.</p>
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		<title>By: onur</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-25011</link>
		<dc:creator>onur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 08:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-25011</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I don’t know about how close Iberians and Turks are, I would guess they are far apart (I am thinking of the original Turks), but of course with Anatolians (and “Turks” in Turkey are a mixture), it’s a different story.&lt;/i&gt;

Of course, I was referring to Turks of Turkey (who are genetically much more Anatolian + south Balkanic than anything else), not Central Asian Turkic populations. 

&lt;i&gt;And I haven’t seen a study comparing populations on both sides of the Straits&lt;/i&gt;

There is a genetic study specifically investigating the degree to which the Mediterranean Sea has acted as a barrier to gene flow, and it includes Spaniards, Moroccans and Turks among other Mediterranean populations:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/10/84

I suggest you to especially look at the PCA plots.

&lt;i&gt;but apparently at some time the two sides were closer together (they were connected millions of years ago)&lt;/i&gt;

In those times there were no humans (not even archaic humans) living in either of the two sides of the Mediterranean Sea. 

&lt;i&gt;and there were migrations &lt;/i&gt;

Of course, there were migrations across the Mediterranean Sea, but they only started beginning from the Neolithic times with the developments in seafaring technologies, but even since then vast majority of migrations in the Mediterranean Basin have been by land down to the and including the modern era, as evident in genetic studies and history.

&lt;i&gt;(some people swim accross the Straits even now!)&lt;/i&gt;

That, of course, is not a logical way of crossing the Mediterranean Sea. :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I don’t know about how close Iberians and Turks are, I would guess they are far apart (I am thinking of the original Turks), but of course with Anatolians (and “Turks” in Turkey are a mixture), it’s a different story.</i></p>
<p>Of course, I was referring to Turks of Turkey (who are genetically much more Anatolian + south Balkanic than anything else), not Central Asian Turkic populations. </p>
<p><i>And I haven’t seen a study comparing populations on both sides of the Straits</i></p>
<p>There is a genetic study specifically investigating the degree to which the Mediterranean Sea has acted as a barrier to gene flow, and it includes Spaniards, Moroccans and Turks among other Mediterranean populations:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/10/84" rel="nofollow">http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/10/84</a></p>
<p>I suggest you to especially look at the PCA plots.</p>
<p><i>but apparently at some time the two sides were closer together (they were connected millions of years ago)</i></p>
<p>In those times there were no humans (not even archaic humans) living in either of the two sides of the Mediterranean Sea. </p>
<p><i>and there were migrations </i></p>
<p>Of course, there were migrations across the Mediterranean Sea, but they only started beginning from the Neolithic times with the developments in seafaring technologies, but even since then vast majority of migrations in the Mediterranean Basin have been by land down to the and including the modern era, as evident in genetic studies and history.</p>
<p><i>(some people swim accross the Straits even now!)</i></p>
<p>That, of course, is not a logical way of crossing the Mediterranean Sea. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mohammed Lebbadi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-25009</link>
		<dc:creator>Mohammed Lebbadi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 08:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-25009</guid>
		<description>So you think it&#039;s not strange that Maimonides&#039; grandfather was named &quot;Abdallah&quot;? I would agree with you if it was a neutral name, and Maymun is one! I don&#039;t know about how close Iberians and Turks are, I would guess they are far apart (I am thinking of the original Turks), but of course with Anatolians (and &quot;Turks&quot; in Turkey are a mixture), it&#039;s a different story. And I haven&#039;t seen a study comparing populations on both sides of the Straits, but apparently at some time the two sides were closer together (they were connected millions of years ago) and there were migrations (some people swim accross the Straits even now!). About the special language, it was a mixture of Tamazight (Berber) and Iberian, the soldiers didn&#039;t speak Arabic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you think it&#8217;s not strange that Maimonides&#8217; grandfather was named &#8220;Abdallah&#8221;? I would agree with you if it was a neutral name, and Maymun is one! I don&#8217;t know about how close Iberians and Turks are, I would guess they are far apart (I am thinking of the original Turks), but of course with Anatolians (and &#8220;Turks&#8221; in Turkey are a mixture), it&#8217;s a different story. And I haven&#8217;t seen a study comparing populations on both sides of the Straits, but apparently at some time the two sides were closer together (they were connected millions of years ago) and there were migrations (some people swim accross the Straits even now!). About the special language, it was a mixture of Tamazight (Berber) and Iberian, the soldiers didn&#8217;t speak Arabic.</p>
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		<title>By: onur</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-24988</link>
		<dc:creator>onur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 23:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-24988</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; even invented a special language&lt;/i&gt;

Which language do you mean here by &quot;special&quot; and &quot;invented&quot;? Iberian Arabic?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> even invented a special language</i></p>
<p>Which language do you mean here by &#8220;special&#8221; and &#8220;invented&#8221;? Iberian Arabic?</p>
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		<title>By: onur</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-24985</link>
		<dc:creator>onur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-24985</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;so one can show anything from the testing, depending what he wants to prove&lt;/i&gt;

Not so fast. Iberians are genetically much closer to Turks, who live in the other extreme of the north Mediterranean Basin, than to Moroccans, who  live just across the Mediterranean Sea. The Mediterranean Sea has been a great barrier to gene flow throughout most of human history in the Mediterranean Basin. Humans have mostly moved by land rather than by sea in their migrations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>so one can show anything from the testing, depending what he wants to prove</i></p>
<p>Not so fast. Iberians are genetically much closer to Turks, who live in the other extreme of the north Mediterranean Basin, than to Moroccans, who  live just across the Mediterranean Sea. The Mediterranean Sea has been a great barrier to gene flow throughout most of human history in the Mediterranean Basin. Humans have mostly moved by land rather than by sea in their migrations.</p>
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		<title>By: onur</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-24984</link>
		<dc:creator>onur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-24984</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Even a test on a rabbi like Maimonides could surprise, just his full name is surprising: ʼAbū ʻImrān Mūsā bin Maymūn ibn ʻAbdallāh!&lt;/i&gt;

What is so surprising about that? Arabic names have usually been frequent among Christians and Jews living in Islamic countries. Here in Anatolia, it was very normal for Greeks, Armenians and Jews to take Muslim names (Arabic, Persian or Turkish) in Ottoman times, and still many of them have such names.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Even a test on a rabbi like Maimonides could surprise, just his full name is surprising: ʼAbū ʻImrān Mūsā bin Maymūn ibn ʻAbdallāh!</i></p>
<p>What is so surprising about that? Arabic names have usually been frequent among Christians and Jews living in Islamic countries. Here in Anatolia, it was very normal for Greeks, Armenians and Jews to take Muslim names (Arabic, Persian or Turkish) in Ottoman times, and still many of them have such names.</p>
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		<title>By: Naughtius Maximus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jews-its-still-complicated/comment-page-1/#comment-24983</link>
		<dc:creator>Naughtius Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4370#comment-24983</guid>
		<description>Sure is complicated
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100617/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_segregated_school</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure is complicated<br />
<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100617/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_segregated_school" rel="nofollow">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100617/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_segregated_school</a></p>
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