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	<title>Comments on: The paternity myth: the rarity of cuckoldry</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/</link>
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		<title>By: Greitučiai #8 &#171; Skeptiškai.lt</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#comment-22506</link>
		<dc:creator>Greitučiai #8 &#171; Skeptiškai.lt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jun 2010 09:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4470#comment-22506</guid>
		<description>[...] Netokios neištikimos jau tos moterys&#8230; &#8211; Discover Magazine [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Netokios neištikimos jau tos moterys&#8230; &#8211; Discover Magazine [...] </p>
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		<title>By: cheryl king</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#comment-22505</link>
		<dc:creator>cheryl king</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 12:39:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4470#comment-22505</guid>
		<description>When a man , Liam Magill takes his case to the highest court in the land of oz ...and then discovers one of the female judges is just as guilty of the same paternity deceit ( she has committed the same crime as his ex wife , Meredith Magill ) you have to wonder if justice will ever be served to the people who are being judged. Whose judging the judges ?
Google has all the details...type in key words. Liam Magill Justice Susan Crennan Paternity Fraud. Conflict of interest etc....

Cheryl King
Melbourne
Australia</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When a man , Liam Magill takes his case to the highest court in the land of oz &#8230;and then discovers one of the female judges is just as guilty of the same paternity deceit ( she has committed the same crime as his ex wife , Meredith Magill ) you have to wonder if justice will ever be served to the people who are being judged. Whose judging the judges ?<br />
Google has all the details&#8230;type in key words. Liam Magill Justice Susan Crennan Paternity Fraud. Conflict of interest etc&#8230;.</p>
<p>Cheryl King<br />
Melbourne<br />
Australia</p>
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		<title>By: Singemonkey</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#comment-22504</link>
		<dc:creator>Singemonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 09:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4470#comment-22504</guid>
		<description>Fascinating post Razib.  I&#039;d bought the myth that cuckoldry was extremely common and that widespread &quot;street&quot; DNA tests might create a mini social revolution.  But from what you say it will affect a very small number of people.

Good to have the myths lifted with a bit of science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating post Razib.  I&#8217;d bought the myth that cuckoldry was extremely common and that widespread &#8220;street&#8221; DNA tests might create a mini social revolution.  But from what you say it will affect a very small number of people.</p>
<p>Good to have the myths lifted with a bit of science.</p>
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		<title>By: figleaf</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#comment-22503</link>
		<dc:creator>figleaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:07:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4470#comment-22503</guid>
		<description>&quot;By the way, if misattributed paternity was very common in the past because men didn’t care one would assume that evolutionary pressures would have selected against it until it was rare.&quot;

I&#039;m a bit curious about this assertion.  First because it&#039;s based on an assumption that ostensibly-monogamous nuclear families with fathers as the exclusive or primary providers have been the norm long enough, &lt;em&gt;consistently enough&lt;/em&gt;, for selection against misattributed paternity to have gotten a foothold let alone long enough to have made it very rare.  As you say 10 generations is roughly 250 years, 100 would be 2,500 years, and yet by most accounts the kind of persistent agriculture that makes primary-paternal &quot;breadwinner&quot; economies possible isn&#039;t much more than 10,000 years old.  Before that time and, for that matter in much of the world, since that time, maternal contribution of, especially, of family-unit calories tended to be very high.  Which suggests paternal &quot;investment&quot; in raising unrelated offspring wouldn&#039;t be terribly high.  You could make a case that there was still paternal defense of offspring that could inflict costs but I&#039;m... pretty sure that even in very small social units defense is conducted mutually rather than family-exclusive.  So I&#039;m not sure how much exposure to selection would be presented there either.

And then there&#039;s the problem of accounting for possible social benefits of misttribution of mixed paternity in terms of patronage by &quot;higher status&quot; cuckolding fathers on non-cuckolded offspring of cuckolded relationships.  And the problem that in small groups both cuckolds and cuckolders are very likely to be closely related.  And the further problem that &lt;em&gt;because&lt;/em&gt; small groups are often highly related (a problem a co-worker in high-tech said was an issue not in some mythical ancestral &quot;savannah&quot; but in isolated small-town northern Minnesota)  genetic admixture from outside the groups has often been encouraged.  And finally there&#039;s the part where on average if man A is raising man B&#039;s offspring as his own there&#039;s a very, very good chance that man B is raising man C&#039;s offspring and... man C is raising man A&#039;s offspring... with the result that whereas the genealogy and, especially, estate probate might be complex, from a &lt;em&gt;genetic&lt;/em&gt; standpoint it all comes out in the selective wash.

We could no doubt go down the list and quibble back and forth but unless the statistics of selection have changed radically since I studied it (entirely possible since I graduated in the 1980s) the selective pressure that you posit against misattributed paternity just hasn&#039;t been consistently intense enough, for long enough, to have produced the selectively complex result you&#039;re expecting.

I mention this not because I think cuckold fetishes are the bee&#039;s knees (I find them mildly baffling) but because I just think the social notion of property inheritance (where women and children are unfortunately-often considered property) is a much more plausible, and recent, explanation for the observed behaviors.  I certainly think the social notion of property inheritance better accounts for the ridiculously-and-increasingly high estimates by anxious men vs. the actual, more plausibly rates you report.

Reflex sociobiology notwithstanding this is a very good post.

figleaf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;By the way, if misattributed paternity was very common in the past because men didn’t care one would assume that evolutionary pressures would have selected against it until it was rare.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a bit curious about this assertion.  First because it&#8217;s based on an assumption that ostensibly-monogamous nuclear families with fathers as the exclusive or primary providers have been the norm long enough, <em>consistently enough</em>, for selection against misattributed paternity to have gotten a foothold let alone long enough to have made it very rare.  As you say 10 generations is roughly 250 years, 100 would be 2,500 years, and yet by most accounts the kind of persistent agriculture that makes primary-paternal &#8220;breadwinner&#8221; economies possible isn&#8217;t much more than 10,000 years old.  Before that time and, for that matter in much of the world, since that time, maternal contribution of, especially, of family-unit calories tended to be very high.  Which suggests paternal &#8220;investment&#8221; in raising unrelated offspring wouldn&#8217;t be terribly high.  You could make a case that there was still paternal defense of offspring that could inflict costs but I&#8217;m&#8230; pretty sure that even in very small social units defense is conducted mutually rather than family-exclusive.  So I&#8217;m not sure how much exposure to selection would be presented there either.</p>
<p>And then there&#8217;s the problem of accounting for possible social benefits of misttribution of mixed paternity in terms of patronage by &#8220;higher status&#8221; cuckolding fathers on non-cuckolded offspring of cuckolded relationships.  And the problem that in small groups both cuckolds and cuckolders are very likely to be closely related.  And the further problem that <em>because</em> small groups are often highly related (a problem a co-worker in high-tech said was an issue not in some mythical ancestral &#8220;savannah&#8221; but in isolated small-town northern Minnesota)  genetic admixture from outside the groups has often been encouraged.  And finally there&#8217;s the part where on average if man A is raising man B&#8217;s offspring as his own there&#8217;s a very, very good chance that man B is raising man C&#8217;s offspring and&#8230; man C is raising man A&#8217;s offspring&#8230; with the result that whereas the genealogy and, especially, estate probate might be complex, from a <em>genetic</em> standpoint it all comes out in the selective wash.</p>
<p>We could no doubt go down the list and quibble back and forth but unless the statistics of selection have changed radically since I studied it (entirely possible since I graduated in the 1980s) the selective pressure that you posit against misattributed paternity just hasn&#8217;t been consistently intense enough, for long enough, to have produced the selectively complex result you&#8217;re expecting.</p>
<p>I mention this not because I think cuckold fetishes are the bee&#8217;s knees (I find them mildly baffling) but because I just think the social notion of property inheritance (where women and children are unfortunately-often considered property) is a much more plausible, and recent, explanation for the observed behaviors.  I certainly think the social notion of property inheritance better accounts for the ridiculously-and-increasingly high estimates by anxious men vs. the actual, more plausibly rates you report.</p>
<p>Reflex sociobiology notwithstanding this is a very good post.</p>
<p>figleaf</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#comment-22502</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4470#comment-22502</guid>
		<description>it does not mean that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it does not mean that.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#comment-22501</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:55:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4470#comment-22501</guid>
		<description>OK!  I am not sure the significance of this article on the overall picture, now that we have established that paternity fraud only effects somewhere between 1 - 3 % of the population.  Does this mean that it is not relevant enough to have laws to protect people from these perpetrators.  Does this mean that with this kind of logic we can say that murder, theft, other types of fraud, etc, happen to less than 1% of the population and therefore there is no reason for these laws, so we can get read of them.  I don&#039;t think so, but for some reason when it comes to something like this, men do not seem to count and neither does the child that the mother is lying about in regards to its DNA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK!  I am not sure the significance of this article on the overall picture, now that we have established that paternity fraud only effects somewhere between 1 &#8211; 3 % of the population.  Does this mean that it is not relevant enough to have laws to protect people from these perpetrators.  Does this mean that with this kind of logic we can say that murder, theft, other types of fraud, etc, happen to less than 1% of the population and therefore there is no reason for these laws, so we can get read of them.  I don&#8217;t think so, but for some reason when it comes to something like this, men do not seem to count and neither does the child that the mother is lying about in regards to its DNA.</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#comment-22500</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4470#comment-22500</guid>
		<description>The myth... like all myths doesn&#039;t surprise me.  I am bombarded by &quot;I read a study that said...&quot; or &quot;You know they say...&quot;  and when I say &quot;What study?&quot; or &quot;Who says?&quot;  I don&#039;t get a straight answer.  People aren&#039;t looking at studies when they are perpetuating the myth.  They are listening to someone who said something about the study (whether that person is right or wrong or has even read the study themselves), and 9 out of 10 times when I follow the thread back to its source I am confronted by someone with an agenda who is outright lying if not terribly misconstruing whatever data they happen to be using, or they are using a study that is either suspect or entirely discredited.

So no.. This kind of thing, sadly.... doesn&#039;t surprise me at all.  I have come to realize that most generally accepted knowledge is neither knowledge nor many times even generally accepted (It is just generally accepted that it is generally accepted).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The myth&#8230; like all myths doesn&#8217;t surprise me.  I am bombarded by &#8220;I read a study that said&#8230;&#8221; or &#8220;You know they say&#8230;&#8221;  and when I say &#8220;What study?&#8221; or &#8220;Who says?&#8221;  I don&#8217;t get a straight answer.  People aren&#8217;t looking at studies when they are perpetuating the myth.  They are listening to someone who said something about the study (whether that person is right or wrong or has even read the study themselves), and 9 out of 10 times when I follow the thread back to its source I am confronted by someone with an agenda who is outright lying if not terribly misconstruing whatever data they happen to be using, or they are using a study that is either suspect or entirely discredited.</p>
<p>So no.. This kind of thing, sadly&#8230;. doesn&#8217;t surprise me at all.  I have come to realize that most generally accepted knowledge is neither knowledge nor many times even generally accepted (It is just generally accepted that it is generally accepted).</p>
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		<title>By: K. McEgan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#comment-22499</link>
		<dc:creator>K. McEgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4470#comment-22499</guid>
		<description>Irish names are polygenetic. Non paternal events count for some anomalies but often it is (mis)translation of surnames.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Irish names are polygenetic. Non paternal events count for some anomalies but often it is (mis)translation of surnames.</p>
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		<title>By: outeast</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#comment-22498</link>
		<dc:creator>outeast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4470#comment-22498</guid>
		<description>The only thing I found surprising here was the claim that people believe cuckoldry rates (definded as here, in terms of paternity not merely infidelity) are so high. That I found startling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only thing I found surprising here was the claim that people believe cuckoldry rates (definded as here, in terms of paternity not merely infidelity) are so high. That I found startling.</p>
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		<title>By: Cuckoldry more common in past generations &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#comment-22497</link>
		<dc:creator>Cuckoldry more common in past generations &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 15:21:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4470#comment-22497</guid>
		<description>[...] Blogs / Gene Expression        &#171; The paternity myth: the rarity of cuckoldry [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Blogs / Gene Expression        &laquo; The paternity myth: the rarity of cuckoldry [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#comment-22496</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 15:12:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4470#comment-22496</guid>
		<description>see this paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19320216</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>see this paper:<br />
<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19320216" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19320216</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention The paternity myth: the rarity of cuckoldry &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Discover Magazine -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#comment-22495</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention The paternity myth: the rarity of cuckoldry &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Discover Magazine -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 15:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4470#comment-22495</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by razib khan, Ron Simon. Ron Simon said: The paternity myth: the rarity of cuckoldry: An urban myth, often asserted with a wink &amp; a nod in some circles, is ... http://bit.ly/bqZclT [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by razib khan, Ron Simon. Ron Simon said: The paternity myth: the rarity of cuckoldry: An urban myth, often asserted with a wink &amp; a nod in some circles, is &#8230; <a href="http://bit.ly/bqZclT" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/bqZclT</a> [...] </p>
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		<title>By: coldequation</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/the-paternity-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#comment-22494</link>
		<dc:creator>coldequation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 14:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=4470#comment-22494</guid>
		<description>Interesting that the incidence of cuckoldry when paternal confidence is high in the US is lower in more recent samples.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting that the incidence of cuckoldry when paternal confidence is high in the US is lower in more recent samples.</p>
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