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	<title>Comments on: The confusions of genetic relatedness</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/the-confusions-of-genetic-distance/</link>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/the-confusions-of-genetic-distance/#comment-25441</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2010 23:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7263/extref/nature08365-s1.pdf

page 19. two of the groups you see deviated toward the chinese are austro-asiatic speaking tribes. one of whom, the santhal, have a presence in bangladesh and bengal as a whole. it seems likely that a lot of bengalis are indo-europeanized santhals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7263/extref/nature08365-s1.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7263/extref/nature08365-s1.pdf</a></p>
<p>page 19. two of the groups you see deviated toward the chinese are austro-asiatic speaking tribes. one of whom, the santhal, have a presence in bangladesh and bengal as a whole. it seems likely that a lot of bengalis are indo-europeanized santhals.</p>
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		<title>By: onur</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/the-confusions-of-genetic-distance/#comment-25440</link>
		<dc:creator>onur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2010 23:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>We should also see more samples from all sorts of non-Indo-Aryan-speaking populations of Bangladesh, northeastern parts of India (including those west and southwest of Bangladesh) and even various regions of Burma (Myanmar) and Tibet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We should also see more samples from all sorts of non-Indo-Aryan-speaking populations of Bangladesh, northeastern parts of India (including those west and southwest of Bangladesh) and even various regions of Burma (Myanmar) and Tibet.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/the-confusions-of-genetic-distance/#comment-25439</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2010 23:06:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=6390#comment-25439</guid>
		<description>in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520205073/geneexpressio-20&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204-1760&lt;/a&gt; the author argues that the high % of muslims in eastern bengali is largely due to the relatively late settlement by indian civilization, specifically, the dominant group was muslim by this period. instead of being &#039;sanskritized&#039; as further west, the native tribal groups were &#039;islamicized.&#039; the model here is basically similar to northeast india, where the british fostered christianity among hill peoples which were not yet under the influence of hindu or muslim indian civilization. similarly, in eastern bengal the argument goes that islam was powerful precisely because hinduism was very weak or non-existent among the local peoples (bengal was one of the last regions of south asian where buddhism flourished as well).

here&#039;s the rub for genetics: &lt;b&gt;who were the tribal people in eastern bengal?&lt;/b&gt; it may be a substantial proportion were austro-asiatic types who were the substratum across much of southeast asia. so one need not posit recent ancestry:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Se_asia_lang_map.png</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520205073/geneexpressio-20" rel="nofollow">The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204-1760</a> the author argues that the high % of muslims in eastern bengali is largely due to the relatively late settlement by indian civilization, specifically, the dominant group was muslim by this period. instead of being &#8216;sanskritized&#8217; as further west, the native tribal groups were &#8216;islamicized.&#8217; the model here is basically similar to northeast india, where the british fostered christianity among hill peoples which were not yet under the influence of hindu or muslim indian civilization. similarly, in eastern bengal the argument goes that islam was powerful precisely because hinduism was very weak or non-existent among the local peoples (bengal was one of the last regions of south asian where buddhism flourished as well).</p>
<p>here&#8217;s the rub for genetics: <b>who were the tribal people in eastern bengal?</b> it may be a substantial proportion were austro-asiatic types who were the substratum across much of southeast asia. so one need not posit recent ancestry:</p>
<p><a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Se_asia_lang_map.png" rel="nofollow">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Se_asia_lang_map.png</a></p>
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		<title>By: onur</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/the-confusions-of-genetic-distance/#comment-25438</link>
		<dc:creator>onur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=6390#comment-25438</guid>
		<description>I think we should see more samples from the Indo-Aryan-speaking populations of Bangladesh and the surrounding Indian territories (including the northeasternmost Indian territories) as all of your known ancestors were Indo-Aryan-speaking (Hindi in your mother’s maternal grandfather&#039;s known [not putative] ancestors and Bengali in all of the rest of your known ancestors).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we should see more samples from the Indo-Aryan-speaking populations of Bangladesh and the surrounding Indian territories (including the northeasternmost Indian territories) as all of your known ancestors were Indo-Aryan-speaking (Hindi in your mother’s maternal grandfather&#8217;s known [not putative] ancestors and Bengali in all of the rest of your known ancestors).</p>
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		<title>By: deadpost</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/the-confusions-of-genetic-distance/#comment-25437</link>
		<dc:creator>deadpost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=6390#comment-25437</guid>
		<description>It would be interesting if a social science study was done to look at people&#039;s perceptions and this sort of genetic relatedness.

For instance, if you had photographs of a sample of individuals volunteering for such a study and had a random group of people rate pairwise similarity of their faces on a scale of 1 to 10, or even ask a question like how similar (or ease of &quot;passing for&quot;) a  &quot;European&quot;, &quot;African&quot; or &quot;East Asian&quot; does individual X look, on a scale of 1 to 10?

Would you then might see people&#039;s social categorizations match such genetic groupings (though I&#039;m not familiar enough with stats to know how&#039;d it be done)-- if no one has done it, it would definitely be interesting.

On a related note, I know the old-school craniometric groupings of
&quot;races&quot; are considered obsolete, but have you seen any studies that have actually used morphological-type data (eg. nasal breadth, head width etc.) as variables for a multivariate anaylsis like PCA, with genetic maps, and looked at the similarity? It&#039;d be insightful too to look at where &quot;looks can be deceiving&quot;. An analogue would be those phylogenetic trees where zoologists compare morphological with molecular characters.

Sorry if my comments are a bit wordy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be interesting if a social science study was done to look at people&#8217;s perceptions and this sort of genetic relatedness.</p>
<p>For instance, if you had photographs of a sample of individuals volunteering for such a study and had a random group of people rate pairwise similarity of their faces on a scale of 1 to 10, or even ask a question like how similar (or ease of &#8220;passing for&#8221;) a  &#8220;European&#8221;, &#8220;African&#8221; or &#8220;East Asian&#8221; does individual X look, on a scale of 1 to 10?</p>
<p>Would you then might see people&#8217;s social categorizations match such genetic groupings (though I&#8217;m not familiar enough with stats to know how&#8217;d it be done)&#8211; if no one has done it, it would definitely be interesting.</p>
<p>On a related note, I know the old-school craniometric groupings of<br />
&#8220;races&#8221; are considered obsolete, but have you seen any studies that have actually used morphological-type data (eg. nasal breadth, head width etc.) as variables for a multivariate anaylsis like PCA, with genetic maps, and looked at the similarity? It&#8217;d be insightful too to look at where &#8220;looks can be deceiving&#8221;. An analogue would be those phylogenetic trees where zoologists compare morphological with molecular characters.</p>
<p>Sorry if my comments are a bit wordy.</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention The confusions of genetic relatedness &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Discover Magazine -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/the-confusions-of-genetic-distance/#comment-25436</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention The confusions of genetic relatedness &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Discover Magazine -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2010 20:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by razib khan, Ron Simon, J.S., Geoffrey Dyson, World Amazing Things and others. World Amazing Things said: The confusions of genetic relatedness &#124; Gene Expression: Last spring I posted ‘Beyond visualization of data in gen... http://bit.ly/98cSyO [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by razib khan, Ron Simon, J.S., Geoffrey Dyson, World Amazing Things and others. World Amazing Things said: The confusions of genetic relatedness | Gene Expression: Last spring I posted ‘Beyond visualization of data in gen&#8230; <a href="http://bit.ly/98cSyO" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/98cSyO</a> [...] </p>
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