Comments on: Culture differences matter (even within Islam)

By: onur

onur — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 12:44:07 +0000

BTW, I am not a Kemalist nor an adherent of Ataturk. I am against many of his policies, but I don’t demonize him (that would be childish) and I never refrain from giving him his due when he really deserves it. My thoughts about him wouldn’t be any different if I was a Kurd.

By: onur

onur — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 12:23:12 +0000

Iran, too, if it hadn’t been secularized and much Westernized during the 20th century shah rules, would now be more similar to Arab countries in its practice of Islam, as was the case prior to the secularization.

By: onur

onur — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 12:00:22 +0000

By “Arab” I don’t mean just Arabians but Arabs in general (BTW, I don’t regard Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews as Arabs).

By: onur

onur — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 09:41:51 +0000

Secularization and Westernization have had a very big impact in the formation of the current “Turkish Islam”. Before the secularizing and Westernizing policies of Ataturk (who was an atheist BTW), Muslim religious orders (tariqas) ruled supreme in Anatolia down to the villages. Madrasas were the only educational institutions in most places (again including villages). Imams, sheikhs and faqihs were not only highly respected but were also highly influential in the administration of villages and neighborhoods. So if Turkey hadn’t been secularized and so much Westernized, we could now be much more similar to Arabs in our religious practice (as we were during the Ottoman times) than we are today.

By: Razib Khan

Razib Khan — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 09:11:42 +0000

Razib, I know enough about the traditional Eastern (=East Asia, Indochina and India) religious eclecticism and syncretism

perhaps. but you know a lot less than me, so i’m in a better place to judge. i think you’re wrong.

so I am also comparing the Western practice of Buddhism and Hinduism with the Buddhism and Hinduism practices of traditionally Buddhist and Hindu nations respectively and not just counting the Western practice of Christianity when I say “Western”.

this is an argument you can make. i still do not think it is persuasive. in other words, i still think you’re wrong. though i will grant that it is not false on the face of it as my perception of your argument earlier was.

By: onur

onur — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 08:48:19 +0000

this is false. you don’t know enough about eastern cultures to judge. i know this because we’ve discussed at length your ignorance of the history of eastern cultures.

Razib, I know enough about the traditional Eastern (=East Asia, Indochina and India) religious eclecticism and syncretism. But if you read my lines carefully, I say “Westeners are highly eclectic in their practice of religion, be that Christianity (especially Protestantism), Western varieties of Buddhism or any other religion“, so I am also comparing the Western practice of Buddhism and Hinduism with the Buddhism and Hinduism practices of traditionally Buddhist and Hindu nations respectively and not just counting the Western practice of Christianity when I say “Western”.

As for Christianity, I know that Christianity, by its very nature, is less flexible than both Buddhism and Hinduism, but I make my religion comparisons in a relative sense thus taking into account inherent differences between religions.

By: Razib Khan

Razib Khan — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 02:34:06 +0000

This took a long time to happen. For example, IV (Ivy) league universities in the USA Columbia, Harvard, Princeton and Yale are no longer associated with the Episcopelians.

stick to what you know. princeton, yale, and harvard were originally calvinist (princeton and yale were founded as a traditional calvinist institutions to counter harvard’s drift toward heterodoxy).

No people can surpass Westerners in terms of eclecticism.

this is false. you don’t know enough about eastern cultures to judge. i know this because we’ve discussed at length your ignorance of the history of eastern cultures.

By: GCL

GCL — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 22:26:55 +0000

Many parties in the West have symbolic religious names such as Christian Democrat, Christian Social Union, etc. (Only very recently Swedish treasury stopped collecting dues for the Lutheran Church. Britain’s Rex or Regina is still the Head of the Church of England). However, these parties have very loose connection with the Church as do church-based universities. This took a long time to happen. For example, IV (Ivy) league universities in the USA Columbia, Harvard, Princeton and Yale are no longer associated with the Episcopelians. Many non-believers are tenured professors in Catholic universities in Europe. (Let us not forget that a Pope in the late 1800 took an axe to all the genitalia of a large number marble statues in the Vatican!)
Will or can (mainstream)Islam ever treat worldly affairs at arms distance and tolerate those who do not necessarily think like them? This question still begs an answer or two and in this connexion I believe next ten or so years are crucial.

By: onur

onur — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 15:39:47 +0000

You mean eclecticism? No people can surpass Westerners in terms of eclecticism…

You can also call it “flexibility” if you wish.

By: onur

onur — Sun, 20 Feb 2011 22:39:44 +0000

our islam is closer to buddhism than arabic islam.

You mean eclecticism? No people can surpass Westerners in terms of eclecticism. Westeners are highly eclectic in their practice of religion, be that Christianity (especially Protestantism), Western varieties of Buddhism or any other religion.

By: onur

onur — Sun, 20 Feb 2011 21:43:42 +0000

Yes, Islam is the primary unifying factor between the various ethnicities of Turkey. But in the long term there is a need for another primary unifying factor as 1) due to secularization more and more people are putting Islam in a low position in their order of priority or completely abandoning Islam, 2) Alevis have no religious common ground with Sunnis in practice, I am not even mentioning Christians and Jews as they are both very small and almost invisible minorities in Turkey.

Turkish nationalism certainly cannot be an alternative to Islam as the primary unifying factor, as Kurds strongly object to that, and so do an ever increasing number of ethnicities.

My proposal is this: Already most of non-Turks of Turkey know and speak Turkish today (most of them as a second language), this opportunity, if used wisely, can be an agent to generate strong bonds between ethnic groups. If we create the social and economic conditions in which people from different ethnic groups interact much more, this can be a good alternative to Islam as the primary unifying factor.

I have an atheist Kurdish friend coming from an Alevi background, and I am an atheist Turk coming from a Sunni background. He votes for the Kurdish party and I vote for AKP. Nevertheless, we are good friends and, more importantly, agree in a lot of areas.

By: cuneyt

cuneyt — Sun, 20 Feb 2011 16:30:59 +0000

the bottom line is, even though people are not very religious in Turkey, we still see Islam as a unifying factor vis-a-vis Kurds etc. The collapse of our empire because of nationalistic ideas of balkan people, arabs etc compelled us to regard islam as a way to stay together with Kurds and other ethnic groups. i am not saying that islam is weak in Turkey. But i have been to Arab countries, and compared to their brand of Islam, ours is a personal faith issue. you pray, fine, you do not, it is also fine. our islam is closer to buddhism than arabic islam.

one thing distinguishes us from other people. we think our shortcomings, our misfortunes are only because of our deeds. i am living a poor life, and it is my mistake. i can do a better job, get rich, get happy without blaming others.

when somebody talks about muslims in turkey, take it with a grain of salt. we are muslims by birth, humans by conscious and trying to make the world more beautiful than it was when we were born. and yes, like every country, we have crack heads

By: Linkage is Good for You: Classic Edition

Linkage is Good for You: Classic Edition — Sun, 20 Feb 2011 11:03:01 +0000

[...] – “Women are More Successful, But THERE IS STILL…”Razib Khan – “Culture Differences Matter (Even Within Islam)”Chuck Ross – “From the ‘No Way’ Files: Bad Trade Union [...]

By: onur

onur — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 07:39:23 +0000

Is the blogpost it came from in English?

No, it isn’t in English, it is in Turkish. It was posted by a fairly objective (so much so that he often gets into disputes with Turkish nationalists) Turkish blogger. He posted that map of an American historian without commenting.

By: TGGP

TGGP — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 05:31:16 +0000

Thanks for the map, onur. Is the blogpost it came from in English? Or is there some other source discussing that history?

By: How Would Apostates, Adulterers, And Thieves Fare In A Democratic Egypt? – Camels With Hammers

Sat, 19 Feb 2011 03:04:32 +0000

[...] Kahn has much more analysis in his full post. [...]

By: onur

onur — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 07:49:09 +0000

onur, I was not aware of that history of mass-migrations and massacres, except for the population exchange with Greece.

Yes, mass-migrations (other than the population exchange between Greece and Turkey) and massacres happened in both (Muslim and Christian) sides. Here is a map by an American historian showing the extents, directions and years of Muslim and Christian forced displacements between the years 1770 and 1923:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tIy-068xs3Q/TS4FrG-_BwI/AAAAAAAABbw/SYcsRBNuTEs/s1600/anadolu_gocleri2.jpg

By: TGGP

TGGP — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 03:09:13 +0000

onur, I was not aware of that history of mass-migrations and massacres, except for the population exchange with Greece. Usually history discussions get to WW1 and point out that, surprisingly enough, the Ottoman empire still existed.

GCL, much of the Russian empire was dismantled with the treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Some of it was regained shortly afterward, but it mostly took WW2 to undo those losses.

By: GCL

GCL — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 19:16:06 +0000

I think we are moving away from the core subject.
We are not discussing what AKP is and is not. That is subject of another discussion.
Cultural and other differences among the Moslem countries are immense, insurmountable in the short-term.
It is better to compare Egypt with other Arab countries.
Iran and Turkey are separate. And let us not forget that Iran or Persia is not only polyglot but also it has been more or less within its current borders for thousands of years (must be doing something right!)and was much less open to influences from the West.
Asia Minor on the other hand is smack in the middle of two continents, on the Silk road, begat many cultures, religions and civilizations and had many, many relationships that it has lived and went through. It has not been spared from outside influence. And thus Asia Minor, Anatoly (Anatolia) or Turkish culture has a different character if not unique.

By: onur

onur — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 18:22:11 +0000

AKP is also a particularly an “arriviste” party (and that is OK). They see their older, more entrenched, educated, sophisticated “fellow travelers” as competitors and AKP wants to establish its own “establishment”. That is why they do not trust and cooperate with anyone from conservative “ancien regime”(s).

That ancien regime is an obstacle to progress in Turkey today, so AKP is doing the right thing by not cooperating with anyone from the ancien regime.