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	<title>Comments on: The royal wedding and outbreeding</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/</link>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32662</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 18:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32662</guid>
		<description>Greg Clark via TGGP:
&lt;i&gt;&quot;&quot;The modern meritocracy is no better at achieving social mobility than the medieval oligarchy. Instead, that rate seems to be a constant of social physics, beyond the control of social engineering.”&lt;/i&gt;

One of The Bell Curve&#039;s major points was that assortative mating in modern meritocracies would indeed lead to less social mobility as society slowly bred itself into castes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg Clark via TGGP:<br />
<i>&#8220;&#8221;The modern meritocracy is no better at achieving social mobility than the medieval oligarchy. Instead, that rate seems to be a constant of social physics, beyond the control of social engineering.”</i></p>
<p>One of The Bell Curve&#8217;s major points was that assortative mating in modern meritocracies would indeed lead to less social mobility as society slowly bred itself into castes.</p>
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		<title>By: Huxley</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32661</link>
		<dc:creator>Huxley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 13:09:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32661</guid>
		<description>I think if you trace it back, Prince William&#039;s surname ought to be Oldenburg from north Germany.  Battenberg/Mountbatten was not Philip&#039;s paternal lineage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think if you trace it back, Prince William&#8217;s surname ought to be Oldenburg from north Germany.  Battenberg/Mountbatten was not Philip&#8217;s paternal lineage.</p>
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		<title>By: David Dobbs</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32660</link>
		<dc:creator>David Dobbs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 11:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32660</guid>
		<description>Nice post Razib. You and readers might find interest in a short piece I wrote for National Geographic, piggybacked to the Tut DNA story, about arguments FOR royal incest. It&#039;s at http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/09/tut-dna/dobbs-text.

E.g.:

&quot;If the royals knew of these potential downsides, they chose to ignore them. According to Stanford University classics professor Walter Scheidel, one reason is that &quot;incest sets them apart.&quot; Royal incest occurs mainly in societies where rulers have tremendous power and no peers, except the gods. Since gods marry each other, so should royals.&quot;

For starters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post Razib. You and readers might find interest in a short piece I wrote for National Geographic, piggybacked to the Tut DNA story, about arguments FOR royal incest. It&#8217;s at <a href="http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/09/tut-dna/dobbs-text" rel="nofollow">http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/09/tut-dna/dobbs-text</a>.</p>
<p>E.g.:</p>
<p>&#8220;If the royals knew of these potential downsides, they chose to ignore them. According to Stanford University classics professor Walter Scheidel, one reason is that &#8220;incest sets them apart.&#8221; Royal incest occurs mainly in societies where rulers have tremendous power and no peers, except the gods. Since gods marry each other, so should royals.&#8221;</p>
<p>For starters.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Bigod</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32659</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Bigod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 07:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32659</guid>
		<description>Fussiness about consanguinity seems narrow-minded, given the example of the Randolphs of VA.  They had at least a dozen cousin marriages over 3 or 4 generations.  There was a saying &quot;Only a Randolph is good enough for a Randolph.&quot;  There&#039;s an example of a marriage between two individuals who were themselves products of a Randolph cousin marriage.  One of the children of the marriage had congenital deaf-mutism.  But his parents were cousins as members of the Bolling family and there was a case of deaf-mutism in the child of another consanguinous marriage in that family.  The eccentric politician John Randolph of Roanoke was hypoandrogenic, with a high pitched voice, slender build and no need to shave.  But hypogonadism can be acquired and there are no other cases in the family.  Except for that questionable case, the Randolphs get a clean bill of health.

In perspective, the Randolphs were prolific, with many surviving children in the first 3 or 4 generations, so the number of inbred people was a small fraction of the surviving descendants in 1800.  Their dynastic fortunes declined after that because growing tobacco for export became a losing business, not because they produced an army of imbeciles.

The take-home lesson is perhaps that our attitudes about consanguinity are culturally determined and somewhat irrational.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fussiness about consanguinity seems narrow-minded, given the example of the Randolphs of VA.  They had at least a dozen cousin marriages over 3 or 4 generations.  There was a saying &#8220;Only a Randolph is good enough for a Randolph.&#8221;  There&#8217;s an example of a marriage between two individuals who were themselves products of a Randolph cousin marriage.  One of the children of the marriage had congenital deaf-mutism.  But his parents were cousins as members of the Bolling family and there was a case of deaf-mutism in the child of another consanguinous marriage in that family.  The eccentric politician John Randolph of Roanoke was hypoandrogenic, with a high pitched voice, slender build and no need to shave.  But hypogonadism can be acquired and there are no other cases in the family.  Except for that questionable case, the Randolphs get a clean bill of health.</p>
<p>In perspective, the Randolphs were prolific, with many surviving children in the first 3 or 4 generations, so the number of inbred people was a small fraction of the surviving descendants in 1800.  Their dynastic fortunes declined after that because growing tobacco for export became a losing business, not because they produced an army of imbeciles.</p>
<p>The take-home lesson is perhaps that our attitudes about consanguinity are culturally determined and somewhat irrational.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32658</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 07:06:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32658</guid>
		<description>Greg Clark on social mobility in Britain:
http://previous.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=173215&amp;sectionid=351021808</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg Clark on social mobility in Britain:<br />
<a href="http://previous.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=173215&#038;sectionid=351021808" rel="nofollow">http://previous.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=173215&#038;sectionid=351021808</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dragon Horse</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32657</link>
		<dc:creator>Dragon Horse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 04:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32657</guid>
		<description>LOL yes, Homozygous.  Not homogenous or homosexual. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL yes, Homozygous.  Not homogenous or homosexual. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32656</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 03:24:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32656</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;I’m only 68% homogenous&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Don&#039;t you mean homozygous?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;I’m only 68% homogenous&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Don&#8217;t you mean homozygous?</p>
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		<title>By: Dragon Horse</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32655</link>
		<dc:creator>Dragon Horse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 02:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32655</guid>
		<description>Taking off ohwilleke &#039;s point...Dienekes once said:

&quot;Populations that have practiced inbreeding for a long time have abolished many of their harmful alleles, because such alleles are expressed more often, the individuals which express them die or fail to reproduce, and the alleles are removed from the gene pool. On the other hand, by chance, it is possible that alleles with small harmful effects may in fact be fixed in the population, and this reduces the quality of the population.&quot;

That is something we don&#039;t think about much...

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/05/humans-and-horses.html

That being said, I would rather be the person who carriers a deleterious mutation than die from an expressed trait.

I&#039;m only 68% homogenous, according to my 23&amp;me data, my fiancee is Swiss, and 69% (which is amazing based on my stereotypical of Switzerland and the fact she is European).  If you think that sounds interesting, my father is 67%. :-O</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taking off ohwilleke &#8216;s point&#8230;Dienekes once said:</p>
<p>&#8220;Populations that have practiced inbreeding for a long time have abolished many of their harmful alleles, because such alleles are expressed more often, the individuals which express them die or fail to reproduce, and the alleles are removed from the gene pool. On the other hand, by chance, it is possible that alleles with small harmful effects may in fact be fixed in the population, and this reduces the quality of the population.&#8221;</p>
<p>That is something we don&#8217;t think about much&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/05/humans-and-horses.html" rel="nofollow">http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/05/humans-and-horses.html</a></p>
<p>That being said, I would rather be the person who carriers a deleterious mutation than die from an expressed trait.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m only 68% homogenous, according to my 23&amp;me data, my fiancee is Swiss, and 69% (which is amazing based on my stereotypical of Switzerland and the fact she is European).  If you think that sounds interesting, my father is 67%. :-O</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32654</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 02:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32654</guid>
		<description>i assumed u were being hegemonic for fun!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i assumed u were being hegemonic for fun!</p>
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		<title>By: EcoPhysioMichelle</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32653</link>
		<dc:creator>EcoPhysioMichelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 02:07:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32653</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t care (you know me), I just felt like being a pest. I didn&#039;t know there was a stupid cubed law re: retardedness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t care (you know me), I just felt like being a pest. I didn&#8217;t know there was a stupid cubed law re: retardedness.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32652</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 00:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32652</guid>
		<description>true. thanks for catching me. but isn&#039;t stupid X stupid X stupid = retarded? :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>true. thanks for catching me. but isn&#8217;t stupid X stupid X stupid = retarded? <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: EcoPhysioMichelle</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32651</link>
		<dc:creator>EcoPhysioMichelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 00:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32651</guid>
		<description>I thought you were gonna stop saying retarded?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought you were gonna stop saying retarded?</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32650</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Apr 2011 23:38:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32650</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Since Luke Jostins is a postgraduate student working on the genetic basis of complex auto-immune diseases I’ll take his word for it &lt;/i&gt;

well, if you see something off by exactly an order of magnitude, there&#039;s often reason to wonder if there was a simple multiplication error. mathematically fluent folk are often bad at simple arithmetic :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Since Luke Jostins is a postgraduate student working on the genetic basis of complex auto-immune diseases I’ll take his word for it </i></p>
<p>well, if you see something off by exactly an order of magnitude, there&#8217;s often reason to wonder if there was a simple multiplication error. mathematically fluent folk are often bad at simple arithmetic <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32649</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Apr 2011 23:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32649</guid>
		<description>Razib, upon closer reading of Luke Jostin&#039;s article it appears that the average person retains about 10 recessive diseases so yes the 25% odds any children inheriting the defect is proportional to probability of any of those two sets of base pairs matching up.  Since Luke Jostins is a postgraduate student working on the genetic basis of complex auto-immune diseases I&#039;ll take his word for it that that comes out to .06% since this number also jibes with the observed number of genetic defects found in the general population.  (Something I should have taken the time to look up prior to originally posting!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Razib, upon closer reading of Luke Jostin&#8217;s article it appears that the average person retains about 10 recessive diseases so yes the 25% odds any children inheriting the defect is proportional to probability of any of those two sets of base pairs matching up.  Since Luke Jostins is a postgraduate student working on the genetic basis of complex auto-immune diseases I&#8217;ll take his word for it that that comes out to .06% since this number also jibes with the observed number of genetic defects found in the general population.  (Something I should have taken the time to look up prior to originally posting!)</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32648</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Apr 2011 23:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32648</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Incidentally, the wedding between William Battenberg and Katie Goldsmith us a wonderful moment of German-Jewish reconciliation&lt;/i&gt;

lol. not all people with &quot;jewish names&quot; are jewish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Incidentally, the wedding between William Battenberg and Katie Goldsmith us a wonderful moment of German-Jewish reconciliation</i></p>
<p>lol. not all people with &#8220;jewish names&#8221; are jewish.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32647</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Apr 2011 22:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32647</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Do Victoria’s Brazilian ancestors mean she is of part-African descent (like Sweden’s Prime Minister).&lt;/i&gt;

if her family were recent immigrants to brazil maybe not. but i don&#039;t know that genealogy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Do Victoria’s Brazilian ancestors mean she is of part-African descent (like Sweden’s Prime Minister).</i></p>
<p>if her family were recent immigrants to brazil maybe not. but i don&#8217;t know that genealogy.</p>
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		<title>By: Tobermory</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32646</link>
		<dc:creator>Tobermory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Apr 2011 22:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32646</guid>
		<description>Do Victoria&#039;s Brazilian ancestors mean she is of part-African descent (like Sweden&#039;s Prime Minister).

Incidentally, the wedding between William Battenberg and Katie Goldsmith us a wonderful moment of German-Jewish reconciliation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do Victoria&#8217;s Brazilian ancestors mean she is of part-African descent (like Sweden&#8217;s Prime Minister).</p>
<p>Incidentally, the wedding between William Battenberg and Katie Goldsmith us a wonderful moment of German-Jewish reconciliation.</p>
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		<title>By: JonHarper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32645</link>
		<dc:creator>JonHarper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Apr 2011 22:46:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32645</guid>
		<description>The Rothschild&#039;s married their cousins quite often in the 1800&#039;s with no apparent problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Rothschild&#8217;s married their cousins quite often in the 1800&#8242;s with no apparent problems.</p>
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		<title>By: ohwilleke</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32644</link>
		<dc:creator>ohwilleke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Apr 2011 22:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32644</guid>
		<description>Denic, et al., had &lt;a href=&quot;http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowFulltext&amp;ArtikelNr=321771&amp;Ausgabe=0&amp;ProduktNr=224224&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;an interesting paper&lt;/a&gt; in 2010 that also argued that inbreeding could have evolutionary value in certain circumstance: &quot;Inbreeding increases the speed of selection of beneficial recessive and co-dominant alleles, e.g. those that protect against diseases. In populations endemic with malaria, the prevalence of consanguineous marriages and the frequency of alleles protective against malaria are both very high.&quot;

The willingness of the author to consider both sides of the coin may be a product of his UAE academic affiliation, as UAE is one of the most inbred (and also inbred aristrocracy dominated) populations in the world.

The issue is quite amenable to study with Monte Carlo models (that should be highly accurate since we understand the mechanism involved so well).  It is certainly possible that mutation rates are sufficiently high that only extreme inbreeding for very long time periods are sufficient to produce mutation load dumping that can keep up with it, but it ought to be possible to get pretty accurate estimates of the relevant constants in that model from empircal evidence, and to use that to determine what the critical thresholds are in a quantitative way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Denic, et al., had <a href="http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowFulltext&amp;ArtikelNr=321771&amp;Ausgabe=0&amp;ProduktNr=224224" rel="nofollow">an interesting paper</a> in 2010 that also argued that inbreeding could have evolutionary value in certain circumstance: &#8220;Inbreeding increases the speed of selection of beneficial recessive and co-dominant alleles, e.g. those that protect against diseases. In populations endemic with malaria, the prevalence of consanguineous marriages and the frequency of alleles protective against malaria are both very high.&#8221;</p>
<p>The willingness of the author to consider both sides of the coin may be a product of his UAE academic affiliation, as UAE is one of the most inbred (and also inbred aristrocracy dominated) populations in the world.</p>
<p>The issue is quite amenable to study with Monte Carlo models (that should be highly accurate since we understand the mechanism involved so well).  It is certainly possible that mutation rates are sufficiently high that only extreme inbreeding for very long time periods are sufficient to produce mutation load dumping that can keep up with it, but it ought to be possible to get pretty accurate estimates of the relevant constants in that model from empircal evidence, and to use that to determine what the critical thresholds are in a quantitative way.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-royal-wedding-and-outbreeding/#comment-32643</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Apr 2011 22:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11361#comment-32643</guid>
		<description>robert, perhaps taking into account basal relatedness?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>robert, perhaps taking into account basal relatedness?</p>
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