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	<title>Comments on: Mediterranean men on the move</title>
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		<title>By: ohwilleke</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/05/mediterranean-men-on-the-move/#comment-33707</link>
		<dc:creator>ohwilleke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jun 2011 21:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12118#comment-33707</guid>
		<description>One doesn&#039;t need a full on Book of Numbers scenario to get the result.

One can simply have a scenario in which farming disrupts the viability of hunter-gathering by disrupting the local ecology enough to make most people who adhere to that approach die of starvation or dramatically decline in numbers due to factors like infant mortality increases or farm culture disease, and to have a minority of women taken as brides (at least some of the time in arrangements as voluntarily as would be the case with couples within hunter-gatherer society) who leave legacies.  The new wave doesn&#039;t have to be the direct warlike means of slaughter of the men.  Indeed, it is hard to believe that warlike slaughter could have been that completely successful at that relatively rudimentary level of military prowess.

There might have been selective slaughter&#039;s of men, but exile to marginal hunting and foraging areas seems more plausibe as the main basis for the marginalization of the Y-DNA of members of  the hunter-foraging societies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One doesn&#8217;t need a full on Book of Numbers scenario to get the result.</p>
<p>One can simply have a scenario in which farming disrupts the viability of hunter-gathering by disrupting the local ecology enough to make most people who adhere to that approach die of starvation or dramatically decline in numbers due to factors like infant mortality increases or farm culture disease, and to have a minority of women taken as brides (at least some of the time in arrangements as voluntarily as would be the case with couples within hunter-gatherer society) who leave legacies.  The new wave doesn&#8217;t have to be the direct warlike means of slaughter of the men.  Indeed, it is hard to believe that warlike slaughter could have been that completely successful at that relatively rudimentary level of military prowess.</p>
<p>There might have been selective slaughter&#8217;s of men, but exile to marginal hunting and foraging areas seems more plausibe as the main basis for the marginalization of the Y-DNA of members of  the hunter-foraging societies.</p>
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		<title>By: melqart</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/05/mediterranean-men-on-the-move/#comment-33706</link>
		<dc:creator>melqart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jun 2011 01:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12118#comment-33706</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t make the farmer/forager dichotomy fit very well with many of the places where I think I know a bit about the prehistory - for instance, of the much more complex farmer/forager/herdsman trichotomy in the middle east; or the corn and kitchen garden hunter-foragers of North America.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t make the farmer/forager dichotomy fit very well with many of the places where I think I know a bit about the prehistory &#8211; for instance, of the much more complex farmer/forager/herdsman trichotomy in the middle east; or the corn and kitchen garden hunter-foragers of North America.</p>
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		<title>By: Diogenes</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/05/mediterranean-men-on-the-move/#comment-33705</link>
		<dc:creator>Diogenes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jun 2011 19:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12118#comment-33705</guid>
		<description>This data makes everything even more interesting.
Absence of J2 and E1b1b fits rather well with their possible expansion with Semitic only after 3000BC in the Near East (and later in Europe).
This cave could well be a family graveyard. Some individuals appear to be closely related. So uniformity in Y-DNA haplogroups is not so surprising.
Supposing it is representative, lack of much G in Europe nowdays, combined with some G in peripheral LBK found before, and lack of R in the sample, may mean that several waves with major demographic impact made their way to Europe, which I think lends more support to complete replacement models. Higher forager-associated mtDNA haplogroups (like U5b) than today could also be explained by such a model.

Absence of R1b may be due to their presence elsewhere, such as in major river valley settlements colonised earlier, and in possible hybridised forager and semi-forager populations. So &quot;late foragers&quot; may actually turn out to have plenty R1b (if late foragers are found with some R1b as I think it&#039;s likely, it&#039;ll be interesting to see what people will say). New arrivals such as some secondary waves may have had enough agricultural advantages to have a bigger demographic impact in less fertile regions left fallow by earlier waves.
R1b could then regain ground if it was based in the richer areas, which upon acquiring innovations, would due to higher density and surplus be natural elite-formation centres for less fertile regions over several millennia. These events wouldn&#039;t necessarily imply major autossomal changes or discontinuity. Patriarchal societies would tend to transmit Y-DNA (prestige of uniterrupted male lines to elites) but not so much autossomes.
Greater amounts of forager-associated mtDNA than found today also can be explained by Treilles being a new settlement by a new Near Eastern wave, in a previously fallow area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This data makes everything even more interesting.<br />
Absence of J2 and E1b1b fits rather well with their possible expansion with Semitic only after 3000BC in the Near East (and later in Europe).<br />
This cave could well be a family graveyard. Some individuals appear to be closely related. So uniformity in Y-DNA haplogroups is not so surprising.<br />
Supposing it is representative, lack of much G in Europe nowdays, combined with some G in peripheral LBK found before, and lack of R in the sample, may mean that several waves with major demographic impact made their way to Europe, which I think lends more support to complete replacement models. Higher forager-associated mtDNA haplogroups (like U5b) than today could also be explained by such a model.</p>
<p>Absence of R1b may be due to their presence elsewhere, such as in major river valley settlements colonised earlier, and in possible hybridised forager and semi-forager populations. So &#8220;late foragers&#8221; may actually turn out to have plenty R1b (if late foragers are found with some R1b as I think it&#8217;s likely, it&#8217;ll be interesting to see what people will say). New arrivals such as some secondary waves may have had enough agricultural advantages to have a bigger demographic impact in less fertile regions left fallow by earlier waves.<br />
R1b could then regain ground if it was based in the richer areas, which upon acquiring innovations, would due to higher density and surplus be natural elite-formation centres for less fertile regions over several millennia. These events wouldn&#8217;t necessarily imply major autossomal changes or discontinuity. Patriarchal societies would tend to transmit Y-DNA (prestige of uniterrupted male lines to elites) but not so much autossomes.<br />
Greater amounts of forager-associated mtDNA than found today also can be explained by Treilles being a new settlement by a new Near Eastern wave, in a previously fallow area.</p>
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		<title>By: Jean M</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/05/mediterranean-men-on-the-move/#comment-33704</link>
		<dc:creator>Jean M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jun 2011 18:17:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12118#comment-33704</guid>
		<description>Bryan Sykes heavily invested, both academically and commercially, in his vision of &lt;i&gt;The Seven Daughters of Eve&lt;/i&gt; (2001) - the matriarchs of the European population, only one of whom (Jasmine i.e. mtDNA J) he pictured as arriving from the Near East with farming. The rest he saw as more ancient in Europe.

Unfortunately for Sykes, he was just plain wrong. Now that aDNA researchers have better techniques to guard against contamination, and can test to a much higher degree of resolution on the mtDNA tree, the picture has turned completely around. Two papers last year showed that Neolithic people in Northern Europe were completely unrelated to their Mesolithic predecessors, who were overwhelmingly U4 and U5. It no longer looks as though H1 and H3 were spread from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge either. See my blog post: &lt;a href=&quot;http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/blog/2/entry-150-franco-cantabrian-refuge-for-what-not-mtdna-h1-h3/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Franco-Cantabrian refuge for what? Not mtDNA H1, H3&lt;/a&gt;.

New papers attempting to set their own material in context do not always reflect the latest discoveries. There is often a long delay between submission and publication of a paper.  This is the second paper which has attempted to reconcile the old Sykes story with what  is emerging from Y-DNA, not realizing that the Seven Daughters saga  has gone the way of the dodo.

Some of the mtDNA haplogroups found in this study are indeed ancient in Europe - the U5 for sure. But not the majority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryan Sykes heavily invested, both academically and commercially, in his vision of <i>The Seven Daughters of Eve</i> (2001) &#8211; the matriarchs of the European population, only one of whom (Jasmine i.e. mtDNA J) he pictured as arriving from the Near East with farming. The rest he saw as more ancient in Europe.</p>
<p>Unfortunately for Sykes, he was just plain wrong. Now that aDNA researchers have better techniques to guard against contamination, and can test to a much higher degree of resolution on the mtDNA tree, the picture has turned completely around. Two papers last year showed that Neolithic people in Northern Europe were completely unrelated to their Mesolithic predecessors, who were overwhelmingly U4 and U5. It no longer looks as though H1 and H3 were spread from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge either. See my blog post: <a href="http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/blog/2/entry-150-franco-cantabrian-refuge-for-what-not-mtdna-h1-h3/" rel="nofollow">Franco-Cantabrian refuge for what? Not mtDNA H1, H3</a>.</p>
<p>New papers attempting to set their own material in context do not always reflect the latest discoveries. There is often a long delay between submission and publication of a paper.  This is the second paper which has attempted to reconcile the old Sykes story with what  is emerging from Y-DNA, not realizing that the Seven Daughters saga  has gone the way of the dodo.</p>
<p>Some of the mtDNA haplogroups found in this study are indeed ancient in Europe &#8211; the U5 for sure. But not the majority.</p>
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		<title>By: Nibbles: Cassava, Biopiracy, Neolithic</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/05/mediterranean-men-on-the-move/#comment-33703</link>
		<dc:creator>Nibbles: Cassava, Biopiracy, Neolithic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jun 2011 10:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12118#comment-33703</guid>
		<description>[...] nth genetic study of ancient farmers. [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] nth genetic study of ancient farmers. [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Mediterranean men on the move &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Middleeast News</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/05/mediterranean-men-on-the-move/#comment-33702</link>
		<dc:creator>Mediterranean men on the move &#124; Gene Expression &#124; Middleeast News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jun 2011 03:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12118#comment-33702</guid>
		<description>[...] Neolithic, Neolithic Revolution  by Razib Khan in Anthroplogy, Genetics, Genomics &#124; 1 comments &#124; RSS feed &#124; [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Neolithic, Neolithic Revolution  by Razib Khan in Anthroplogy, Genetics, Genomics | 1 comments | RSS feed | [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Gary B</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/05/mediterranean-men-on-the-move/#comment-33701</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jun 2011 02:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12118#comment-33701</guid>
		<description>I happened to be thinking of something closely related to this yesterday, with the observation that conquering armies have historically very often seeded the conquered population with their own, presumably more &#039;fit&#039; genes, while also generally reducing or eliminating the males of the losing population.  This seems to me to be an effective mechanism for &#039;improving&#039; the gene pool of the conquered population - in the sole sense of having succeeded in that environment!  (As a desk jockey I like to think I have a certain type of fitness that does not express well in that environment, but does have its merits.)

Since similar behaviors have been seen in various primates (and, IIRC some other mammals and perhaps non-mammals) it seems to be a social extrapolation of a behavior related to evolutionary fitness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I happened to be thinking of something closely related to this yesterday, with the observation that conquering armies have historically very often seeded the conquered population with their own, presumably more &#8216;fit&#8217; genes, while also generally reducing or eliminating the males of the losing population.  This seems to me to be an effective mechanism for &#8216;improving&#8217; the gene pool of the conquered population &#8211; in the sole sense of having succeeded in that environment!  (As a desk jockey I like to think I have a certain type of fitness that does not express well in that environment, but does have its merits.)</p>
<p>Since similar behaviors have been seen in various primates (and, IIRC some other mammals and perhaps non-mammals) it seems to be a social extrapolation of a behavior related to evolutionary fitness.</p>
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