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	<title>Comments on: Convergent evolution happens!</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/</link>
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		<title>By: pconroy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34202</link>
		<dc:creator>pconroy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jun 2011 18:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34202</guid>
		<description>#16, Agreed, I wasn&#039;t arguing with the main theses at all - the Taiwanese guy is most likely Han Chinese, BUT Han Chinese form a clade with Papuans to the exclusion of Africans - despite appearances.

#14, Yes, that jumped out at me too - the Taiwanese Aboriginal&#039;s facial features are very like some Amazonian rain-forest dwellers, especially the Xingu.

#12, Being Irish, one can be seen as a &quot;blow-in&quot; even after 500 years...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#16, Agreed, I wasn&#8217;t arguing with the main theses at all &#8211; the Taiwanese guy is most likely Han Chinese, BUT Han Chinese form a clade with Papuans to the exclusion of Africans &#8211; despite appearances.</p>
<p>#14, Yes, that jumped out at me too &#8211; the Taiwanese Aboriginal&#8217;s facial features are very like some Amazonian rain-forest dwellers, especially the Xingu.</p>
<p>#12, Being Irish, one can be seen as a &#8220;blow-in&#8221; even after 500 years&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Insightful</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34201</link>
		<dc:creator>Insightful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jun 2011 16:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34201</guid>
		<description>#15, I think the point of Razib&#039;s post is to show that Papuans are much more closely related to east Asians than they are to Africans despite the resemblance to the latter.  That means they are more closely related to Malays, Filipinos, Indonesians, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#15, I think the point of Razib&#8217;s post is to show that Papuans are much more closely related to east Asians than they are to Africans despite the resemblance to the latter.  That means they are more closely related to Malays, Filipinos, Indonesians, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Eurasian Sensation</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34200</link>
		<dc:creator>Eurasian Sensation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jun 2011 11:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34200</guid>
		<description>#12:
Taiwanese aboriginals are not closely related to Papuans. There may be a bit of Negrito in there somewhere, but essentially they are like the Malays, Filipinos and Indonesians. The pictures you provide make that pretty clear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#12:<br />
Taiwanese aboriginals are not closely related to Papuans. There may be a bit of Negrito in there somewhere, but essentially they are like the Malays, Filipinos and Indonesians. The pictures you provide make that pretty clear.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Insightful</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34199</link>
		<dc:creator>Insightful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jun 2011 00:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34199</guid>
		<description>#12, the Taiwanese Aboriginal male looks like a South American indian in Brazil</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#12, the Taiwanese Aboriginal male looks like a South American indian in Brazil</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34198</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2011 21:23:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34198</guid>
		<description>#12,

1) a few hundred years is definitely enough for me to say they&#039;re natives of taiwan. but then, i think of myself as american despite only a few decades!

2) from what i have read the gap between taiwanese aboriginals and han is like that between malays and han. it exists, but compared to the papuan outgroup they&#039;re still a pretty tight clade. i wanted to focus on heads of state cuz their images are always public domain, perhaps should have picked malaysia or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#12,</p>
<p>1) a few hundred years is definitely enough for me to say they&#8217;re natives of taiwan. but then, i think of myself as american despite only a few decades!</p>
<p>2) from what i have read the gap between taiwanese aboriginals and han is like that between malays and han. it exists, but compared to the papuan outgroup they&#8217;re still a pretty tight clade. i wanted to focus on heads of state cuz their images are always public domain, perhaps should have picked malaysia or something.</p>
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		<title>By: pconroy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34197</link>
		<dc:creator>pconroy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2011 20:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34197</guid>
		<description>Razib,

One criticism of your inclusion of the current President of Taiwan to represent Taiwanese people is that the majority of Taiwanese are of very recent - last few hundred years - Han Chinese descent.

The Taiwanese Aboriginals are the people who are most like the Papuans genetically. Here are some images of them:
1. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.free-photos.biz/images/consumer_products/clothes/taiwanese_aborigine_leopard_fur_by_torii_n7550.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Taiwanese Aboriginal - male&lt;/a&gt;

2. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.taiwanese-secrets.com/image-files/taiwan-aboriginal.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Taiwanese Aboriginal - female&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Razib,</p>
<p>One criticism of your inclusion of the current President of Taiwan to represent Taiwanese people is that the majority of Taiwanese are of very recent &#8211; last few hundred years &#8211; Han Chinese descent.</p>
<p>The Taiwanese Aboriginals are the people who are most like the Papuans genetically. Here are some images of them:<br />
1. <a href="http://www.free-photos.biz/images/consumer_products/clothes/taiwanese_aborigine_leopard_fur_by_torii_n7550.jpg" rel="nofollow">Taiwanese Aboriginal &#8211; male</a></p>
<p>2. <a href="http://www.taiwanese-secrets.com/image-files/taiwan-aboriginal.jpg" rel="nofollow">Taiwanese Aboriginal &#8211; female</a></p>
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		<title>By: Insightful</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34196</link>
		<dc:creator>Insightful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2011 17:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34196</guid>
		<description>Oops, I posted the same link twice in post #7.  I already showed the australian aboriginal kinky hair, but here is the url link showing mainland australian aborigines with the wavy or straight hair type:

http://thestudyofracialism.org/forum/store/aussie-kids1.jpg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, I posted the same link twice in post #7.  I already showed the australian aboriginal kinky hair, but here is the url link showing mainland australian aborigines with the wavy or straight hair type:</p>
<p><a href="http://thestudyofracialism.org/forum/store/aussie-kids1.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://thestudyofracialism.org/forum/store/aussie-kids1.jpg</a></p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34195</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2011 07:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34195</guid>
		<description>#9, no. i mean sub-saharan africans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#9, no. i mean sub-saharan africans.</p>
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		<title>By: syon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34194</link>
		<dc:creator>syon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2011 00:52:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34194</guid>
		<description>Razib:&quot;Africans are always the “outgroup” to any two non-African populations. This is a robust pattern whenever you look at averaged total genome phylogenies. In other words, when you don’t privilege particular genes in a phylogeny humanity can be divided into African and non-African branches.&quot;

Forgive me for asking a stupid question, but does this &quot;African outgroup&quot; pattern hold true with North Africans? Or is it a Sub-Saharan phenomenon?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Razib:&#8221;Africans are always the “outgroup” to any two non-African populations. This is a robust pattern whenever you look at averaged total genome phylogenies. In other words, when you don’t privilege particular genes in a phylogeny humanity can be divided into African and non-African branches.&#8221;</p>
<p>Forgive me for asking a stupid question, but does this &#8220;African outgroup&#8221; pattern hold true with North Africans? Or is it a Sub-Saharan phenomenon?</p>
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		<title>By: Maju</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34193</link>
		<dc:creator>Maju</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2011 00:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34193</guid>
		<description>First of all the link you provide directs to a footnote and not the beginning of the paper. You may want to correct that.

I read the paper yesterday or two days ago and I decided that I could not understand neither the method nor the conclusions if any. In fact in fig. 2, which seems central, almost all quadruplets  show excess of &quot;mean number of parallel divergent SNPs&quot; above the simulations. They argue this indicates that:

&quot;For all but one divergence comparison, more parallel divergent SNPs than expected were observed, indicative of parallel adaptation&quot;.

But I understand that it probably means that the simulations are wrong to begin with and, in any case, the one (or rather three) cases where they approach or give lower results than the simulations are the interesting ones - the rest are just the norm.

So I eventually decided that the paper was some kind of &quot;mad scientist ranting&quot; and decided to ignore it altogether.

Regardless, going to your example, I&#039;d say it is a very bad one because it is not as much convergent adaption what makes the Papuan and the Tanzanian look similar in some very obvious traits but conservation of shared ancestral traits. IMO these are the dominant common traits of the ancestral humankind.

It&#039;d be much better to illustrate convergent evolution to show the Emperor of Japan along the Queen of England, because both lines probably evolved convergently but separately towards white skin color.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all the link you provide directs to a footnote and not the beginning of the paper. You may want to correct that.</p>
<p>I read the paper yesterday or two days ago and I decided that I could not understand neither the method nor the conclusions if any. In fact in fig. 2, which seems central, almost all quadruplets  show excess of &#8220;mean number of parallel divergent SNPs&#8221; above the simulations. They argue this indicates that:</p>
<p>&#8220;For all but one divergence comparison, more parallel divergent SNPs than expected were observed, indicative of parallel adaptation&#8221;.</p>
<p>But I understand that it probably means that the simulations are wrong to begin with and, in any case, the one (or rather three) cases where they approach or give lower results than the simulations are the interesting ones &#8211; the rest are just the norm.</p>
<p>So I eventually decided that the paper was some kind of &#8220;mad scientist ranting&#8221; and decided to ignore it altogether.</p>
<p>Regardless, going to your example, I&#8217;d say it is a very bad one because it is not as much convergent adaption what makes the Papuan and the Tanzanian look similar in some very obvious traits but conservation of shared ancestral traits. IMO these are the dominant common traits of the ancestral humankind.</p>
<p>It&#8217;d be much better to illustrate convergent evolution to show the Emperor of Japan along the Queen of England, because both lines probably evolved convergently but separately towards white skin color.</p>
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		<title>By: Insightful</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34192</link>
		<dc:creator>Insightful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 00:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34192</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s interesting that the austrailian aborigines actually had both hair textures.  They had the wavy or straight hair on the big island and then on the island of Tasmania, photographs taken of the now extinct aboriginal Tasmanians show them with kinky hair.

Here is a Tasmanian aborigine with the kinky hair type:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:William_Lanne.jpg

Here are mainland australian aborigines with the wavy or straight hair type:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:William_Lanne.jpg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s interesting that the austrailian aborigines actually had both hair textures.  They had the wavy or straight hair on the big island and then on the island of Tasmania, photographs taken of the now extinct aboriginal Tasmanians show them with kinky hair.</p>
<p>Here is a Tasmanian aborigine with the kinky hair type:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:William_Lanne.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:William_Lanne.jpg</a></p>
<p>Here are mainland australian aborigines with the wavy or straight hair type:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:William_Lanne.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:William_Lanne.jpg</a></p>
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		<title>By: Insightful</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34191</link>
		<dc:creator>Insightful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 19:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34191</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;we don’t know now. we may at some point. but the hair texture of east asians, very thick shafts which are very straight, may be evolutionarily novel if recent selection on the EDAR locus pans out.&lt;/i&gt;

I find it interesting how the revered indian spiritual leader who died recently (Sathya Sai Baba) sported an afro:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqrXVOsOUzo

Indians aren&#039;t generally known for having afros, which makes his appearance (see url link) unusual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>we don’t know now. we may at some point. but the hair texture of east asians, very thick shafts which are very straight, may be evolutionarily novel if recent selection on the EDAR locus pans out.</i></p>
<p>I find it interesting how the revered indian spiritual leader who died recently (Sathya Sai Baba) sported an afro:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqrXVOsOUzo" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqrXVOsOUzo</a></p>
<p>Indians aren&#8217;t generally known for having afros, which makes his appearance (see url link) unusual.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34190</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 18:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34190</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; In other words did both have kinky hair at the point in time where they split up in Asia or did that hair texture come later after the ancestors of melanesians moved to the islands?&lt;/i&gt;

we don&#039;t know now. we may at some point. but the hair texture of east asians, very thick shafts which are very straight, may be evolutionarily novel if recent selection on the &lt;i&gt;EDAR&lt;/i&gt; locus pans out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> In other words did both have kinky hair at the point in time where they split up in Asia or did that hair texture come later after the ancestors of melanesians moved to the islands?</i></p>
<p>we don&#8217;t know now. we may at some point. but the hair texture of east asians, very thick shafts which are very straight, may be evolutionarily novel if recent selection on the <i>EDAR</i> locus pans out.</p>
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		<title>By: Insightful</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34189</link>
		<dc:creator>Insightful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 18:42:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34189</guid>
		<description>Razib or anyone, were the ancestors of melanesians who arrived in the pacific islands more asian as we know in appearance (e.g. non-kinky hair), or did the ancestors of asians who split off from melanesians resemble the melanesians more so?  In other words did both have kinky hair at the point in time where they split up in Asia or did that hair texture come later after the ancestors of melanesians moved to the islands?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Razib or anyone, were the ancestors of melanesians who arrived in the pacific islands more asian as we know in appearance (e.g. non-kinky hair), or did the ancestors of asians who split off from melanesians resemble the melanesians more so?  In other words did both have kinky hair at the point in time where they split up in Asia or did that hair texture come later after the ancestors of melanesians moved to the islands?</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Tennessen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34188</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Tennessen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 18:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34188</guid>
		<description>Hi Razib. Thanks for an excellent summary of our paper!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Razib. Thanks for an excellent summary of our paper!</p>
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		<title>By: Lank</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34187</link>
		<dc:creator>Lank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34187</guid>
		<description>Great blog post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great blog post.</p>
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		<title>By: Darkseid</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/06/convergent-evolution-happens/#comment-34186</link>
		<dc:creator>Darkseid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 13:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12463#comment-34186</guid>
		<description>The skin color thing is a great example. I didn&#039;t understand the original paper so I&#039;m glad you posted that analogy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The skin color thing is a great example. I didn&#8217;t understand the original paper so I&#8217;m glad you posted that analogy.</p>
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