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	<title>Comments on: Bearish wisdom!</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/bearish-wisdom/</link>
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		<title>By: Brian Schmidt</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/bearish-wisdom/#comment-34642</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Schmidt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12809#comment-34642</guid>
		<description>If by affecting &quot;conservation status&quot; Razib means &quot;legal conservation status&quot;, the answer would be not really, at least not in the US.  As I&#039;ve mentioned before, the US Endangered Species Act protects not only species but subspecies and &quot;distinct population segments&quot; (DPS) of vertebrates in order to preserve genetic diversity, and apparently in prejudice against invertebrates.

A citation, although they&#039;re easy to find:

&quot;Under the original ESA, a species was defined to
include ‘‘any subspecies of fish or wildlife or plants
and any other group of fish or wildlife of the same
species or smaller taxa in common spatial arrangement that interbreed when mature’’ (ESA, Section
3(15)). In 1978, the Act was amended to eliminate
this language and replace it with the current DPS
concept. The new definition provides that a species
includes ‘‘any subspecies of fish or wildlife or plants,
and any distinct population segment of any species
of vertebrate fish or wildlife which interbreeds when
mature’’ (ESA, Section 4)&quot;

http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin/tpl/Downloads/URSUS/Vol_18/U18_1_Rosen.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If by affecting &#8220;conservation status&#8221; Razib means &#8220;legal conservation status&#8221;, the answer would be not really, at least not in the US.  As I&#8217;ve mentioned before, the US Endangered Species Act protects not only species but subspecies and &#8220;distinct population segments&#8221; (DPS) of vertebrates in order to preserve genetic diversity, and apparently in prejudice against invertebrates.</p>
<p>A citation, although they&#8217;re easy to find:</p>
<p>&#8220;Under the original ESA, a species was defined to<br />
include ‘‘any subspecies of fish or wildlife or plants<br />
and any other group of fish or wildlife of the same<br />
species or smaller taxa in common spatial arrangement that interbreed when mature’’ (ESA, Section<br />
3(15)). In 1978, the Act was amended to eliminate<br />
this language and replace it with the current DPS<br />
concept. The new definition provides that a species<br />
includes ‘‘any subspecies of fish or wildlife or plants,<br />
and any distinct population segment of any species<br />
of vertebrate fish or wildlife which interbreeds when<br />
mature’’ (ESA, Section 4)&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin/tpl/Downloads/URSUS/Vol_18/U18_1_Rosen.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin/tpl/Downloads/URSUS/Vol_18/U18_1_Rosen.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Maju</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/bearish-wisdom/#comment-34641</link>
		<dc:creator>Maju</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 22:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12809#comment-34641</guid>
		<description>Reptiles are monophyletic (class: Reptilia, which includes now birds).

The Terrestrial Vertebrates category is divided in two: Amphibians and Reptilomorpha, which is surely a category you can describe as &quot;reptiles&quot; in the broad sense.

Reptilomorpha divides in several extinct groups and then Amniota.

Amniota &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tolweb.org/Amniota/14990&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;divides&lt;/a&gt; between Synapsida (mammals and extinct &quot;reptile-like&quot; relatives) and Reptilia (reptiles in the narrow sense, including birds and dinosaurs).

Reptilia divides in Anapsida (leading to Testudina: turtles) and Romerida (leading to Diapsida, which includes all other reptiles and, of course, birds and dinosaurs).

It is not that Reptilia or Reptilomorpha are not monophyletic, it is just that traditionally we decided that a widespread subclade was out of the group (birds and mammals respectively).

Similarly brown bears are monophyletic in the graphic above, if anything it is polar bears, a subclade of brown bears it seems, which are not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reptiles are monophyletic (class: Reptilia, which includes now birds).</p>
<p>The Terrestrial Vertebrates category is divided in two: Amphibians and Reptilomorpha, which is surely a category you can describe as &#8220;reptiles&#8221; in the broad sense.</p>
<p>Reptilomorpha divides in several extinct groups and then Amniota.</p>
<p>Amniota <a href="http://www.tolweb.org/Amniota/14990" rel="nofollow">divides</a> between Synapsida (mammals and extinct &#8220;reptile-like&#8221; relatives) and Reptilia (reptiles in the narrow sense, including birds and dinosaurs).</p>
<p>Reptilia divides in Anapsida (leading to Testudina: turtles) and Romerida (leading to Diapsida, which includes all other reptiles and, of course, birds and dinosaurs).</p>
<p>It is not that Reptilia or Reptilomorpha are not monophyletic, it is just that traditionally we decided that a widespread subclade was out of the group (birds and mammals respectively).</p>
<p>Similarly brown bears are monophyletic in the graphic above, if anything it is polar bears, a subclade of brown bears it seems, which are not.</p>
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		<title>By: Dallas</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/bearish-wisdom/#comment-34640</link>
		<dc:creator>Dallas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 19:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12809#comment-34640</guid>
		<description>I had the same feeling as you, Razib, when I first saw the press on this story, and I&#039;ve seen it elsewhere. I&#039;m currently working in a crocodilian systematics lab and one of our Ph.D. students recently published a paper on hybridization  between Cuban crocs and American crocs living in Cuba (I believe you linked to this on here before). It got a reasonable amount of press and many of the news stories said the Cuban and American crocs in Cuba are now more closely related to each other than the American crocs in Cuba are to American crocs on the mainland. Only a few of them mentioned this was only in the mitochondrial DNA. I guess its semi-understandable, most people have no understanding of mitochondrial vs genomic inheritance, but it becomes disingenuous when its phrased that way, because it implies something so incredibly and drastically different. I think it aligns with something Jon Stewart is always talking about: the media is all about sensationalism and whatever sounds more dramatic and news worthy is better to publish, whether its true or not. And then there&#039;s the possibility that the journalists in question are just don&#039;t know enough to recognize the distinction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had the same feeling as you, Razib, when I first saw the press on this story, and I&#8217;ve seen it elsewhere. I&#8217;m currently working in a crocodilian systematics lab and one of our Ph.D. students recently published a paper on hybridization  between Cuban crocs and American crocs living in Cuba (I believe you linked to this on here before). It got a reasonable amount of press and many of the news stories said the Cuban and American crocs in Cuba are now more closely related to each other than the American crocs in Cuba are to American crocs on the mainland. Only a few of them mentioned this was only in the mitochondrial DNA. I guess its semi-understandable, most people have no understanding of mitochondrial vs genomic inheritance, but it becomes disingenuous when its phrased that way, because it implies something so incredibly and drastically different. I think it aligns with something Jon Stewart is always talking about: the media is all about sensationalism and whatever sounds more dramatic and news worthy is better to publish, whether its true or not. And then there&#8217;s the possibility that the journalists in question are just don&#8217;t know enough to recognize the distinction.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/bearish-wisdom/#comment-34639</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12809#comment-34639</guid>
		<description>thanks for the catches guys!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks for the catches guys!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: pconroy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/bearish-wisdom/#comment-34638</link>
		<dc:creator>pconroy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 15:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12809#comment-34638</guid>
		<description>Sandgroper,

Woot!!!

Polar Bears and the Irish share a common ancestor ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandgroper,</p>
<p>Woot!!!</p>
<p>Polar Bears and the Irish share a common ancestor <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: DK</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/bearish-wisdom/#comment-34637</link>
		<dc:creator>DK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12809#comment-34637</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It doesn’t match the fossil record, which indicates the separation of polar and brown bears more than 500 thousand years ago. &lt;/i&gt;

Wikipedia sites recent paper in PNAS that says: &quot;the specimen was estimated to be 130–110 ky old, which is significantly older than any other known polar bear subfossils&quot;. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pnas.org/content/107/11/5053.full&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The paper itself&lt;/a&gt; suggest the split at around 150 kya.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>It doesn’t match the fossil record, which indicates the separation of polar and brown bears more than 500 thousand years ago. </i></p>
<p>Wikipedia sites recent paper in PNAS that says: &#8220;the specimen was estimated to be 130–110 ky old, which is significantly older than any other known polar bear subfossils&#8221;. <a href="http://www.pnas.org/content/107/11/5053.full" rel="nofollow">The paper itself</a> suggest the split at around 150 kya.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Lab Lemming</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/bearish-wisdom/#comment-34636</link>
		<dc:creator>Lab Lemming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 09:26:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12809#comment-34636</guid>
		<description>&quot;coalescence of more than 500 years as well.&quot;
You&#039;re missing a &#039;thousand&#039; here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;coalescence of more than 500 years as well.&#8221;<br />
You&#8217;re missing a &#8216;thousand&#8217; here.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandgroper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/bearish-wisdom/#comment-34635</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandgroper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 09:11:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=12809#comment-34635</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been waiting for Paul to say &quot;You see, polar bears are Irish too.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been waiting for Paul to say &#8220;You see, polar bears are Irish too.&#8221;</p>
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