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	<title>Comments on: Tutsi probably differ genetically from the Hutu</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/</link>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35801</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35801</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;I’m assuming you’re not from the region&lt;/b&gt; and would disagree with this.&lt;/i&gt;

don&#039;t you know, all black people look the same? :-)

&lt;i&gt;can you recommend readings on the subject?&lt;/i&gt;

i don&#039;t remember anymore where i read this. the falling out between the shona and matabele factions is well known so i&#039;m sure you could find stuff on google books.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><b>I’m assuming you’re not from the region</b> and would disagree with this.</i></p>
<p>don&#8217;t you know, all black people look the same? <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><i>can you recommend readings on the subject?</i></p>
<p>i don&#8217;t remember anymore where i read this. the falling out between the shona and matabele factions is well known so i&#8217;m sure you could find stuff on google books.</p>
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		<title>By: M. Möhling</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35800</link>
		<dc:creator>M. Möhling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35800</guid>
		<description>ot:
&gt; the havoc wrought upon the Bantu Matabele in
&gt; the early 1980s by the Bantu Shona dominated movement led by Robert Mugabe
can you recommend readings on the subject?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ot:<br />
&gt; the havoc wrought upon the Bantu Matabele in<br />
&gt; the early 1980s by the Bantu Shona dominated movement led by Robert Mugabe<br />
can you recommend readings on the subject?</p>
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		<title>By: Muzungu</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35799</link>
		<dc:creator>Muzungu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35799</guid>
		<description>@Slater &quot;I can say that despite the stereotypes, the vast majority of people there are unidentifiable as one group or the other. Unless you ask them, you would not be able to tell&quot;

I&#039;m assuming you&#039;re not from the region and would disagree with this. And to say that the groups were &quot;homogenous&quot; prior to colonialization is pretty naive. What about socially homogenous? The RPF is pushing this version of history on everyone because they know that minority rule never lasts long. One can make a philosophical argument for why it&#039;s better for Rwandans to believe that ethnicity was a colonial invention (I&#039;m open to that), but it&#039;s probably not reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Slater &#8220;I can say that despite the stereotypes, the vast majority of people there are unidentifiable as one group or the other. Unless you ask them, you would not be able to tell&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m assuming you&#8217;re not from the region and would disagree with this. And to say that the groups were &#8220;homogenous&#8221; prior to colonialization is pretty naive. What about socially homogenous? The RPF is pushing this version of history on everyone because they know that minority rule never lasts long. One can make a philosophical argument for why it&#8217;s better for Rwandans to believe that ethnicity was a colonial invention (I&#8217;m open to that), but it&#8217;s probably not reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Kinyanj</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35798</link>
		<dc:creator>Kinyanj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 02:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35798</guid>
		<description>I am a Kikuyu. I am just speculating based on stories I heard from older Kikuyus growing up in Kenya. Old Kikuyus speak of a place called Hakum (axum). Axum is a location somewhere in Ethiopia. Kikuyus believe to have migrated down from there prior settling in Kenya. If Tutsi Also Have a Similar story which im not sure if they do, Then the only thing i can say is that at some point both Kikuyu and Tutsis whether they were originally Bantu or Cushite, They intermarried alot between Bantu and Cushites which would bring about the Big forehead and fairer skin. Just trying to connect the dots.  Here is some other info that can support my theory http://africanpress.wordpress.com/2008/02/15/kikuyus-tutsi-merus-kambas-and-embus-ended-up-in-their-current-locations-due-to-migration/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a Kikuyu. I am just speculating based on stories I heard from older Kikuyus growing up in Kenya. Old Kikuyus speak of a place called Hakum (axum). Axum is a location somewhere in Ethiopia. Kikuyus believe to have migrated down from there prior settling in Kenya. If Tutsi Also Have a Similar story which im not sure if they do, Then the only thing i can say is that at some point both Kikuyu and Tutsis whether they were originally Bantu or Cushite, They intermarried alot between Bantu and Cushites which would bring about the Big forehead and fairer skin. Just trying to connect the dots.  Here is some other info that can support my theory <a href="http://africanpress.wordpress.com/2008/02/15/kikuyus-tutsi-merus-kambas-and-embus-ended-up-in-their-current-locations-due-to-migration/" rel="nofollow">http://africanpress.wordpress.com/2008/02/15/kikuyus-tutsi-merus-kambas-and-embus-ended-up-in-their-current-locations-due-to-migration/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Omar</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35797</link>
		<dc:creator>Omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 00:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35797</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;2. Why are Tutsi physically similar to the Kikuyu in Kenya, who speak a Bantu language which is relatively close to Kinyarwanda?&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m not sure about this. The physical resemblance between Kikuyus and Tutsis seems very small to me. I have lived in both countries for years, but more so in Kenya than Rwanda. First of all, Kikuyus, on average, are not slim and tall (I understand that not all Tutsi are like Kagame). They are probably at or below the average Kenyan height. It&#039;s true that they (not all them but on average - and especially their women) do have prominent foreheads, similar to the one on Kagame. They also have a fairer complexion than Luos, Luhyas, Kalenjins, Masais and others. However, there are other ethnic groups in Kenya with closer physical resemblance to Tutsis than Kikuyus, especially &lt;i&gt;morphologie&lt;/i&gt;-wise: Kalenjin and Masai</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>2. Why are Tutsi physically similar to the Kikuyu in Kenya, who speak a Bantu language which is relatively close to Kinyarwanda?</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure about this. The physical resemblance between Kikuyus and Tutsis seems very small to me. I have lived in both countries for years, but more so in Kenya than Rwanda. First of all, Kikuyus, on average, are not slim and tall (I understand that not all Tutsi are like Kagame). They are probably at or below the average Kenyan height. It&#8217;s true that they (not all them but on average &#8211; and especially their women) do have prominent foreheads, similar to the one on Kagame. They also have a fairer complexion than Luos, Luhyas, Kalenjins, Masais and others. However, there are other ethnic groups in Kenya with closer physical resemblance to Tutsis than Kikuyus, especially <i>morphologie</i>-wise: Kalenjin and Masai</p>
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		<title>By: Bronze Age Pervert</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35796</link>
		<dc:creator>Bronze Age Pervert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 18:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35796</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Is this the ultimate message from history?&lt;/em&gt;

would you be a farmer, clearing out the land, making its fruit increase, your calloused hand raising up the sweet corn out of the black earth, living with woman and children in an orderly household...or would you be a pastoralist, in your youth you would don the wolfskin and haunt the mountain crags and with your companions raid the lush valleys, stealing many fine cattle and women and barrels of grain and oil, with the smell of blood always in your nose, like a pack after a hunt gathers around a black lake and their red tongues lap at the waters</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Is this the ultimate message from history?</em></p>
<p>would you be a farmer, clearing out the land, making its fruit increase, your calloused hand raising up the sweet corn out of the black earth, living with woman and children in an orderly household&#8230;or would you be a pastoralist, in your youth you would don the wolfskin and haunt the mountain crags and with your companions raid the lush valleys, stealing many fine cattle and women and barrels of grain and oil, with the smell of blood always in your nose, like a pack after a hunt gathers around a black lake and their red tongues lap at the waters</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35795</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 17:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35795</guid>
		<description>@Moreno: &lt;i&gt;So pastoralists overcome peasants who overcome hunter-gatherers? Is this the ultimate message from history?&lt;/i&gt;

Not entirely. Pastoralists overcome peasants politically, sometimes culturally, but rarely demographically. Demographically, I think the peasants almost always win.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Moreno: <i>So pastoralists overcome peasants who overcome hunter-gatherers? Is this the ultimate message from history?</i></p>
<p>Not entirely. Pastoralists overcome peasants politically, sometimes culturally, but rarely demographically. Demographically, I think the peasants almost always win.</p>
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		<title>By: carpetanuiq</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35794</link>
		<dc:creator>carpetanuiq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 15:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35794</guid>
		<description>“It is not the truth we have to fear, but the mythologies which humans distort from the fragments of the truth in furtherance of their own perverse aims”

Good research and true conclusion. Mythology and history rewriting is the first signal of political identity change, since past facts must be consistent with present identities. This rewriting is not arbitrary but natural: political identity change follows underlying society change.

An example, besides hutus and tutsis, is the Duchy of Brabant. During all the Ancient Régime agricultural society, language diferences existed but did not generate political identities. Flemings and waloons from the duchy would fight together against flemings from the County of Flanders, or waloons from Hainaut. In today industrial / post industrial Belgium, the political identity divide is linguistic. And (I suppose) the rewriting is at place.

Regarding nobility pls let me clarify one point. French and european nobilities had a scale of values that measured four parameters: origin and antiquity (la “race”, “l´ancieneté”, “uradel” in german), hereditary property (le “patrimoine”) , pedigree / marriage (les “alliances”) and finally the meritocratic parameter, actions made during life (les “illustrations”, if possible military). The four had to be balanced in a lineage. The first was the more important because it was time asymmetric and caused an important divide in noble lineages. Balanced &quot;uradels&quot;, considered themselves an elite within nobility and were very conscient of the value of this: they still intermarried until recently (first half of XX century). Also unbalanced unpoverished &quot;uradels&quot;  exchanging it for patrimoine with unbalanced new rich lineages.
.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“It is not the truth we have to fear, but the mythologies which humans distort from the fragments of the truth in furtherance of their own perverse aims”</p>
<p>Good research and true conclusion. Mythology and history rewriting is the first signal of political identity change, since past facts must be consistent with present identities. This rewriting is not arbitrary but natural: political identity change follows underlying society change.</p>
<p>An example, besides hutus and tutsis, is the Duchy of Brabant. During all the Ancient Régime agricultural society, language diferences existed but did not generate political identities. Flemings and waloons from the duchy would fight together against flemings from the County of Flanders, or waloons from Hainaut. In today industrial / post industrial Belgium, the political identity divide is linguistic. And (I suppose) the rewriting is at place.</p>
<p>Regarding nobility pls let me clarify one point. French and european nobilities had a scale of values that measured four parameters: origin and antiquity (la “race”, “l´ancieneté”, “uradel” in german), hereditary property (le “patrimoine”) , pedigree / marriage (les “alliances”) and finally the meritocratic parameter, actions made during life (les “illustrations”, if possible military). The four had to be balanced in a lineage. The first was the more important because it was time asymmetric and caused an important divide in noble lineages. Balanced &#8220;uradels&#8221;, considered themselves an elite within nobility and were very conscient of the value of this: they still intermarried until recently (first half of XX century). Also unbalanced unpoverished &#8220;uradels&#8221;  exchanging it for patrimoine with unbalanced new rich lineages.<br />
.</p>
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		<title>By: unknown</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35793</link>
		<dc:creator>unknown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35793</guid>
		<description>***We can probably reject an Afro-Asiatic ancestry for the Tutsi, as is claimed by some. This individual consistently shows much closer affinity to the Nilotic Masai than to the Semitic or Cushitic samples from the Horn of Africa.***

The Maasai are a Nilotic speaking population, but they&#039;re not necessarily biologically &quot;Nilotic&quot; as is the case with the Dinka and other populations from Southern Sudan. The Maasai are a mixed group, as are Rwandans/Burudians, and therefore explaining why the two populations cluster together... in between West Africans and Semitic/Cushitic speaking populations from the Horn of Africa. It would have had been naive for us to assume that the Tutsi would cluster in the vicinity of the Oromo or Somali, nevertheless the Amhara and Tigray, given the fact that the Tutsi&#039;s Afrasan speaking ancestors would have logically exchanged gene-flow with populations in SE Africa... even before actually reaching the Great Lakes region.

In my opinion, the significant Cushitic component found among Rwandans expanded into the region by way of Tanzania, from a population similar to that of the Iraqw. This ancestral  SE African Cushitic population then likely originated and migrated from the vicinity of southern Ethiopia; this ancestral Horn of African population was likely ancestral to populations similar to the Borana, Gabre, and other Oromo peoples, more so than the eastern Somali and the northern Agaw (and their pseudo-Semitic cousins, the Amhara and Tigray). Further research on SE African genetics will likely confirm the predominant &quot;Oromo-like&quot; affiliation of the Cushitic admixture found among Bantu, Nilo-Saharan, Afrasan, and Sandawe SE Africans. The other Cushitic affiliation in SE Africa is probably the more &quot;eastern orientated&quot; component found among the Somali; but such ancestry is probably limited to the likes of the Rendille, El Molo, and the Somali themselves.

The Nilotic admixture in Rwanda/Burundi is either &quot;indigenous&quot; to the Great Lakes region and/or came by way of Southern Sudan via Uganda, in a separate wave of gene-flow into the region... I highly doubt that the population that introduced Cushitic admixture in the region also introduced the aforementioned Nilotic affiliation. Uganada, geographically, is roughly split between Niger-Kordofanian and Nilotic speaking populations. And many of the Great Lakes communities in Kenya are also Nilotic speaking, including for example the Kalenjin. These populations are not recent migrants, as are the Maa and Turkana speaking communities. I currently favor the former scenerio, in which Nilotic speakers in the Great Lakes region where eventually absorbed by incoming Bantu and Cushitic speaking populations. Both the Luhya and &quot;Bantu Kenyans&quot; from Tishkoff et al 2009 posses &quot;Nilo-Saharan&quot; admixture at ~15-20%.

^ Tanzanian Bantu groups lack the Nilotic component, while Great Lakes and further eastward Kenyan samples do... probably due to different reasons, indigenous and intrusive.

***Unsurprisingly this individual is shifted somewhat toward the Luhya in the PCA, further confirmation of their Hutu ancestry.***

I don&#039;t think that&#039;s the most logical explanation. The Tutsi are a Bantu speaking population, while the Maasai are a Nilo-Saharan speaking population... while both possess significant Cushitic ancestry, they possess varying levels of Bantu and Nilo-Saharan admixture. Tutsi&#039;s being Bantu are going to possess more Niger-Kordofanian ancestry, while the opposite is true  with the Maasai.  The fact that his grandfather is Hutu is likely insignificant in this context, given that even the most Cushitic admixed Tutsi likely has a stronger pull to the Luhya or Central African than they do with Southern Sudan. And I&#039;m willing to bet that a significant portion of the Hutu population cluster closer to this Tutsi sample than the Luhya do... given the fact that many Hutus have Tutsi ancestry, in contrast to vise-versa; Hutu men-Tutsi women unions were common in Rwanda-Burundi up until recently, and in these cases the &quot;mixed&quot; children of these unions would be classified as &quot;Hutu&quot; no matter their Tutsi ancestry. Class identity is transmitted via the father.

The aforementioned many explain why the Maasai are slightly closer to the Horn of Africa in comparison to the Tutsi, given that the Nilo-Saharan component is naturally closer to the Cushitic component in contrast to the Niger-Kordofanian component.

side note: this particular Hutu grandparent while being &quot;Hutu&quot; looks remarkably &quot;Nilotic&quot; and could easily pass in the Sudan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>***We can probably reject an Afro-Asiatic ancestry for the Tutsi, as is claimed by some. This individual consistently shows much closer affinity to the Nilotic Masai than to the Semitic or Cushitic samples from the Horn of Africa.***</p>
<p>The Maasai are a Nilotic speaking population, but they&#8217;re not necessarily biologically &#8220;Nilotic&#8221; as is the case with the Dinka and other populations from Southern Sudan. The Maasai are a mixed group, as are Rwandans/Burudians, and therefore explaining why the two populations cluster together&#8230; in between West Africans and Semitic/Cushitic speaking populations from the Horn of Africa. It would have had been naive for us to assume that the Tutsi would cluster in the vicinity of the Oromo or Somali, nevertheless the Amhara and Tigray, given the fact that the Tutsi&#8217;s Afrasan speaking ancestors would have logically exchanged gene-flow with populations in SE Africa&#8230; even before actually reaching the Great Lakes region.</p>
<p>In my opinion, the significant Cushitic component found among Rwandans expanded into the region by way of Tanzania, from a population similar to that of the Iraqw. This ancestral  SE African Cushitic population then likely originated and migrated from the vicinity of southern Ethiopia; this ancestral Horn of African population was likely ancestral to populations similar to the Borana, Gabre, and other Oromo peoples, more so than the eastern Somali and the northern Agaw (and their pseudo-Semitic cousins, the Amhara and Tigray). Further research on SE African genetics will likely confirm the predominant &#8220;Oromo-like&#8221; affiliation of the Cushitic admixture found among Bantu, Nilo-Saharan, Afrasan, and Sandawe SE Africans. The other Cushitic affiliation in SE Africa is probably the more &#8220;eastern orientated&#8221; component found among the Somali; but such ancestry is probably limited to the likes of the Rendille, El Molo, and the Somali themselves.</p>
<p>The Nilotic admixture in Rwanda/Burundi is either &#8220;indigenous&#8221; to the Great Lakes region and/or came by way of Southern Sudan via Uganda, in a separate wave of gene-flow into the region&#8230; I highly doubt that the population that introduced Cushitic admixture in the region also introduced the aforementioned Nilotic affiliation. Uganada, geographically, is roughly split between Niger-Kordofanian and Nilotic speaking populations. And many of the Great Lakes communities in Kenya are also Nilotic speaking, including for example the Kalenjin. These populations are not recent migrants, as are the Maa and Turkana speaking communities. I currently favor the former scenerio, in which Nilotic speakers in the Great Lakes region where eventually absorbed by incoming Bantu and Cushitic speaking populations. Both the Luhya and &#8220;Bantu Kenyans&#8221; from Tishkoff et al 2009 posses &#8220;Nilo-Saharan&#8221; admixture at ~15-20%.</p>
<p>^ Tanzanian Bantu groups lack the Nilotic component, while Great Lakes and further eastward Kenyan samples do&#8230; probably due to different reasons, indigenous and intrusive.</p>
<p>***Unsurprisingly this individual is shifted somewhat toward the Luhya in the PCA, further confirmation of their Hutu ancestry.***</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s the most logical explanation. The Tutsi are a Bantu speaking population, while the Maasai are a Nilo-Saharan speaking population&#8230; while both possess significant Cushitic ancestry, they possess varying levels of Bantu and Nilo-Saharan admixture. Tutsi&#8217;s being Bantu are going to possess more Niger-Kordofanian ancestry, while the opposite is true  with the Maasai.  The fact that his grandfather is Hutu is likely insignificant in this context, given that even the most Cushitic admixed Tutsi likely has a stronger pull to the Luhya or Central African than they do with Southern Sudan. And I&#8217;m willing to bet that a significant portion of the Hutu population cluster closer to this Tutsi sample than the Luhya do&#8230; given the fact that many Hutus have Tutsi ancestry, in contrast to vise-versa; Hutu men-Tutsi women unions were common in Rwanda-Burundi up until recently, and in these cases the &#8220;mixed&#8221; children of these unions would be classified as &#8220;Hutu&#8221; no matter their Tutsi ancestry. Class identity is transmitted via the father.</p>
<p>The aforementioned many explain why the Maasai are slightly closer to the Horn of Africa in comparison to the Tutsi, given that the Nilo-Saharan component is naturally closer to the Cushitic component in contrast to the Niger-Kordofanian component.</p>
<p>side note: this particular Hutu grandparent while being &#8220;Hutu&#8221; looks remarkably &#8220;Nilotic&#8221; and could easily pass in the Sudan.</p>
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		<title>By: Slater</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35792</link>
		<dc:creator>Slater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35792</guid>
		<description>Having been to the region myself, I can say that despite the stereotypes, the vast majority of people there are unidentifiable as one group or the other. Unless you ask them, you would not be able to tell. Until the colonial powers emphasized the divisions, they really were only economically-based, though not entirely as you pointed out. Aside from the different migratory histories the two groups really assimilated in the region. I would even go so far as to call them homogenous (at least before the colonial powers intervened). It was only after the colonial powers elevated the Tutsi&#039;s in society and mandated identification that specified the ethnicity, did ethnicity become a factor of division in the Great Lakes. I&#039;d recommend reading &quot;Strength in What Remains&quot; by Tracy Kidder. I think she offers a balanced perspective on this.

As for the science of this, I&#039;d be interested to hear where you got your data from. It seems to me that despite your valiant attempts to retain a scientific standard, I think  you deviate some with assumption and expectations that affect your simulations.

That being said, this is certainly an interesting topic of both discussion and research. I&#039;d be interested in hearing more about it if you do further work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having been to the region myself, I can say that despite the stereotypes, the vast majority of people there are unidentifiable as one group or the other. Unless you ask them, you would not be able to tell. Until the colonial powers emphasized the divisions, they really were only economically-based, though not entirely as you pointed out. Aside from the different migratory histories the two groups really assimilated in the region. I would even go so far as to call them homogenous (at least before the colonial powers intervened). It was only after the colonial powers elevated the Tutsi&#8217;s in society and mandated identification that specified the ethnicity, did ethnicity become a factor of division in the Great Lakes. I&#8217;d recommend reading &#8220;Strength in What Remains&#8221; by Tracy Kidder. I think she offers a balanced perspective on this.</p>
<p>As for the science of this, I&#8217;d be interested to hear where you got your data from. It seems to me that despite your valiant attempts to retain a scientific standard, I think  you deviate some with assumption and expectations that affect your simulations.</p>
<p>That being said, this is certainly an interesting topic of both discussion and research. I&#8217;d be interested in hearing more about it if you do further work.</p>
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		<title>By: Dunia</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35791</link>
		<dc:creator>Dunia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35791</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this scientifically documented details regarding the Hutu and Tutsi. Is it possible to indentify the DNA of Hutu and the DNA of Tutsi as well ? and if this  is possible , it can prove who Hutu or Tutsi is , and therefore people  can know exactly how many Hutus or Tutsis were killed in the Rwanda genocides(exact figure)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this scientifically documented details regarding the Hutu and Tutsi. Is it possible to indentify the DNA of Hutu and the DNA of Tutsi as well ? and if this  is possible , it can prove who Hutu or Tutsi is , and therefore people  can know exactly how many Hutus or Tutsis were killed in the Rwanda genocides(exact figure)</p>
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		<title>By: Eze</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35790</link>
		<dc:creator>Eze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35790</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;We can probably reject an Afro-Asiatic ancestry for the Tutsi, as is claimed by some. This individual consistently shows much closer affinity to the Nilotic Masai than to the Semitic or Cushitic samples from the Horn of Africa.&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s an interesting possibility, but this admixture run didn&#039;t split the non-hunter-gatherer Africans that well. In one of your previous analyses on East Africa you managed to get a pretty accurate &#039;Afro-Asiatic/Cushitic&#039; and &#039;Nilotic&#039; cluster. Is it possible that you could run this Tutsi sample using the same admixture settings as in the &#039;Flavors of Afro-Asiatic&#039; blog post to see if he carries a significant Nilotic component or is mainly Bantu &amp; Cushitic derived?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>We can probably reject an Afro-Asiatic ancestry for the Tutsi, as is claimed by some. This individual consistently shows much closer affinity to the Nilotic Masai than to the Semitic or Cushitic samples from the Horn of Africa.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s an interesting possibility, but this admixture run didn&#8217;t split the non-hunter-gatherer Africans that well. In one of your previous analyses on East Africa you managed to get a pretty accurate &#8216;Afro-Asiatic/Cushitic&#8217; and &#8216;Nilotic&#8217; cluster. Is it possible that you could run this Tutsi sample using the same admixture settings as in the &#8216;Flavors of Afro-Asiatic&#8217; blog post to see if he carries a significant Nilotic component or is mainly Bantu &amp; Cushitic derived?</p>
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		<title>By: Ukuri</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35789</link>
		<dc:creator>Ukuri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:17:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35789</guid>
		<description>Close enough! I am Rwandese and from all I know, this is as close as it gets. No bias, pure science and history combined in a fashion closest to what nobody wants to really say.

@Moreno: Basically that&#039;s what he;s saying. Only that all the three groups somehow overlapped and over time came to be more of social castes than biologically meaningful groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Close enough! I am Rwandese and from all I know, this is as close as it gets. No bias, pure science and history combined in a fashion closest to what nobody wants to really say.</p>
<p>@Moreno: Basically that&#8217;s what he;s saying. Only that all the three groups somehow overlapped and over time came to be more of social castes than biologically meaningful groups.</p>
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		<title>By: unknown</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35788</link>
		<dc:creator>unknown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35788</guid>
		<description>^ More so than the Maasai who are Nilo-Saharan speakers that absorbed Cushitic/Niger-Kordofanian admixture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>^ More so than the Maasai who are Nilo-Saharan speakers that absorbed Cushitic/Niger-Kordofanian admixture.</p>
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		<title>By: unknown</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35787</link>
		<dc:creator>unknown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35787</guid>
		<description>According to Tishkoff et al.

The Maasai were collectively around...

~50% Cushitic
~25% Nilo-Saharan
~25% Niger-Kordofanian

The Luhya were...

~78% Niger-Kordofanian
~15% Nilo-Saharan
~7% Cushitic

The Kikuya from Tishoff et al. and the Hema samples from elsewhere were around...

~40% Cushitic
~45% Niger-Kordofanian
~15% Nilo-Saharan

The Tutsi I would imagine would most resemble the Kikuya and Hema, other SE African Bantu speaking populations with Cushitic/Nilotic admixture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to Tishkoff et al.</p>
<p>The Maasai were collectively around&#8230;</p>
<p>~50% Cushitic<br />
~25% Nilo-Saharan<br />
~25% Niger-Kordofanian</p>
<p>The Luhya were&#8230;</p>
<p>~78% Niger-Kordofanian<br />
~15% Nilo-Saharan<br />
~7% Cushitic</p>
<p>The Kikuya from Tishoff et al. and the Hema samples from elsewhere were around&#8230;</p>
<p>~40% Cushitic<br />
~45% Niger-Kordofanian<br />
~15% Nilo-Saharan</p>
<p>The Tutsi I would imagine would most resemble the Kikuya and Hema, other SE African Bantu speaking populations with Cushitic/Nilotic admixture.</p>
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		<title>By: Muzungu</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35786</link>
		<dc:creator>Muzungu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 08:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35786</guid>
		<description>Living in Rwanda I&#039;ve pondered over this debate a lot, and this is definitely interesting work but it doesn&#039;t really answer any of the arguments against distinct ethnic groups, based on examination of culture. For example:
1. Why do the Twa people who are considered the original inhabitants of Rwanda, and who generally keep to themselves share the same language of Kinyarwanda as the Hutu and Tutsi?
2. Why are Tutsi physically similar to the Kikuyu in Kenya, who speak a Bantu language which is relatively close to Kinyarwanda?
Any ideas?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Living in Rwanda I&#8217;ve pondered over this debate a lot, and this is definitely interesting work but it doesn&#8217;t really answer any of the arguments against distinct ethnic groups, based on examination of culture. For example:<br />
1. Why do the Twa people who are considered the original inhabitants of Rwanda, and who generally keep to themselves share the same language of Kinyarwanda as the Hutu and Tutsi?<br />
2. Why are Tutsi physically similar to the Kikuyu in Kenya, who speak a Bantu language which is relatively close to Kinyarwanda?<br />
Any ideas?</p>
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		<title>By: Moreno</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#comment-35785</link>
		<dc:creator>Moreno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:16:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=13708#comment-35785</guid>
		<description>Great work! If you had more samples you could write a paper about this.
So pastoralists overcome peasants who overcome hunter-gatherers? Is this the ultimate message from history? (I&#039;ve just finished &quot;Guns, germs and steel&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great work! If you had more samples you could write a paper about this.<br />
So pastoralists overcome peasants who overcome hunter-gatherers? Is this the ultimate message from history? (I&#8217;ve just finished &#8220;Guns, germs and steel&#8221;)</p>
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