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	<title>Comments on: Bulldogs, inbreeding, and correlated response</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/bulldogs-inbreeding-and-correlated-response/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/bulldogs-inbreeding-and-correlated-response/</link>
	<description>Human evolution, genetics, genomics and their interstices</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 00:28:05 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: ackbark</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/bulldogs-inbreeding-and-correlated-response/comment-page-1/#comment-102973</link>
		<dc:creator>ackbark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2011 02:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14563#comment-102973</guid>
		<description>“qualzucht:” literally ‘torture breeding.’

Like those cats with the two-inch long legs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“qualzucht:” literally ‘torture breeding.’</p>
<p>Like those cats with the two-inch long legs.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher@BorderWars</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/bulldogs-inbreeding-and-correlated-response/comment-page-1/#comment-102844</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher@BorderWars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2011 08:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14563#comment-102844</guid>
		<description>Excellent, now you&#039;re speaking my language Razib.  This general topic (the genetics and ethics of dog breeding) is about half the content on my BorderWars blog.  

Some posts you might find interesting:

When you say &quot;The bulldog is profoundly unnatural in shape and gait. In other words, the issues here are not just genetic, but they’re biophysical&quot; you are touching on an area that I have dubbed &quot;Sine Qua Non Disorders&quot; in dog breeding, where the dysfunction is not strictly a deleterious genetic disease, but a biophysical trait that has actually been selected for and is often a trademark of the breed.

http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/category/health-genetics/sine-qua-non-disease

You can see that there is quite a list of breeds and associated disorders that are amazingly not considered deleterious by the fancy.  The DACH countries have actually taken legal steps to outlaw many of these breeding fads and practices as &quot;qualzucht:&quot; literally &#039;torture breeding.&#039;

While there is a certain AR bent to this discussion that my Libertarian philosophy dislikes, there is a serious extant problem in purebred dogs and their twisted ethics on this issue that does need to be addressed (hopefully not with HSUS funded AR legislation).

The general level of genetic knowledge among dog breeders is horrible, so I have taken up the charge of trying to distill these concepts into posts that open minded breeders could understand. I recently covered Pedigree Collapse: 

http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2011/10/pedigree-collapse.html

And have spent a number of posts trying to rectify the intentionally twisted understanding of inbreeding that most breeders put out as fact:

http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/category/health-genetics/inbred-mistakes

Sadly, even the trained biologists PhDs who are also dog breeders have a tendency to drink the show ring koolaid versus the rationalism of science:

http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/tag/tollers

I&#039;ve even called out one researcher for Academic Fraud given that her personal investment as a breeder of a rare (and highly inbred) breed, the Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, led her to manipulate population genetic data to suggest that the breed was not inbred (basically truncating all but 4 ancestor generations worth of pedigree data to lower COI calculations).

It&#039;s a crazy little niche to be writing for, that&#039;s for sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent, now you&#8217;re speaking my language Razib.  This general topic (the genetics and ethics of dog breeding) is about half the content on my BorderWars blog.  </p>
<p>Some posts you might find interesting:</p>
<p>When you say &#8220;The bulldog is profoundly unnatural in shape and gait. In other words, the issues here are not just genetic, but they’re biophysical&#8221; you are touching on an area that I have dubbed &#8220;Sine Qua Non Disorders&#8221; in dog breeding, where the dysfunction is not strictly a deleterious genetic disease, but a biophysical trait that has actually been selected for and is often a trademark of the breed.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/category/health-genetics/sine-qua-non-disease" rel="nofollow">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/category/health-genetics/sine-qua-non-disease</a></p>
<p>You can see that there is quite a list of breeds and associated disorders that are amazingly not considered deleterious by the fancy.  The DACH countries have actually taken legal steps to outlaw many of these breeding fads and practices as &#8220;qualzucht:&#8221; literally &#8216;torture breeding.&#8217;</p>
<p>While there is a certain AR bent to this discussion that my Libertarian philosophy dislikes, there is a serious extant problem in purebred dogs and their twisted ethics on this issue that does need to be addressed (hopefully not with HSUS funded AR legislation).</p>
<p>The general level of genetic knowledge among dog breeders is horrible, so I have taken up the charge of trying to distill these concepts into posts that open minded breeders could understand. I recently covered Pedigree Collapse: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2011/10/pedigree-collapse.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2011/10/pedigree-collapse.html</a></p>
<p>And have spent a number of posts trying to rectify the intentionally twisted understanding of inbreeding that most breeders put out as fact:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/category/health-genetics/inbred-mistakes" rel="nofollow">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/category/health-genetics/inbred-mistakes</a></p>
<p>Sadly, even the trained biologists PhDs who are also dog breeders have a tendency to drink the show ring koolaid versus the rationalism of science:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/tag/tollers" rel="nofollow">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/tag/tollers</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;ve even called out one researcher for Academic Fraud given that her personal investment as a breeder of a rare (and highly inbred) breed, the Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, led her to manipulate population genetic data to suggest that the breed was not inbred (basically truncating all but 4 ancestor generations worth of pedigree data to lower COI calculations).</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a crazy little niche to be writing for, that&#8217;s for sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Kiwiguy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/bulldogs-inbreeding-and-correlated-response/comment-page-1/#comment-102838</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiwiguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2011 07:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14563#comment-102838</guid>
		<description>How about Algernon? 

http://dognamez.com/dog-name-meanings-of-Algernon.php

I think Bernie suits him too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about Algernon? </p>
<p><a href="http://dognamez.com/dog-name-meanings-of-Algernon.php" rel="nofollow">http://dognamez.com/dog-name-meanings-of-Algernon.php</a></p>
<p>I think Bernie suits him too.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Darkseid</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/bulldogs-inbreeding-and-correlated-response/comment-page-1/#comment-102821</link>
		<dc:creator>Darkseid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2011 04:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14563#comment-102821</guid>
		<description>Watson (in honor of James watson)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Watson (in honor of James watson)</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/bulldogs-inbreeding-and-correlated-response/comment-page-1/#comment-102819</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2011 01:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14563#comment-102819</guid>
		<description>#4, p-ter at gnxp.com posted some research a few years back with negative results on the behavior/pigment correlation. also, jason malloy looked at the nlsy data set for eye color and behavior, and didn&#039;t find anything. though i believe that there&#039;s stuff on blue eyes and shyness in the literature. the main thing to do would be look at siblings. that controls for genetic background, and pigment is large enough QTL that there&#039;s difference across siblings....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#4, p-ter at gnxp.com posted some research a few years back with negative results on the behavior/pigment correlation. also, jason malloy looked at the nlsy data set for eye color and behavior, and didn&#8217;t find anything. though i believe that there&#8217;s stuff on blue eyes and shyness in the literature. the main thing to do would be look at siblings. that controls for genetic background, and pigment is large enough QTL that there&#8217;s difference across siblings&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: rich lawler</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/bulldogs-inbreeding-and-correlated-response/comment-page-1/#comment-102816</link>
		<dc:creator>rich lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2011 00:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14563#comment-102816</guid>
		<description>In the NOVA show about &quot;decoding dogs&quot; they mentioned how fur patterns change when tameness and docility are selected for.  This was part of that famous &quot;Russian Silver Fox&quot; study--selection for human-friendliness and non-aggression brought about markings that are quite similar to a border collie: white stripe down center of the face and lighter underbelly, paws, and withers.   So in foxes (and perhaps dogs) there is a correlation between behavioral traits and fur regions, but it would be interesting to see if this correlation is symmetrical: can selecting for whiter extremities produce gentler dogs?  There must be lots of literature on &quot;one-way&quot; genetic correlations (selection on one trait drags along another trait but not vice versa) but I&#039;m not familiar with it.   

Name the little fella &quot;Muscles&quot; or &quot;Talisker&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the NOVA show about &#8220;decoding dogs&#8221; they mentioned how fur patterns change when tameness and docility are selected for.  This was part of that famous &#8220;Russian Silver Fox&#8221; study&#8211;selection for human-friendliness and non-aggression brought about markings that are quite similar to a border collie: white stripe down center of the face and lighter underbelly, paws, and withers.   So in foxes (and perhaps dogs) there is a correlation between behavioral traits and fur regions, but it would be interesting to see if this correlation is symmetrical: can selecting for whiter extremities produce gentler dogs?  There must be lots of literature on &#8220;one-way&#8221; genetic correlations (selection on one trait drags along another trait but not vice versa) but I&#8217;m not familiar with it.   </p>
<p>Name the little fella &#8220;Muscles&#8221; or &#8220;Talisker&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Giancola</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/bulldogs-inbreeding-and-correlated-response/comment-page-1/#comment-102812</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Giancola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2011 00:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14563#comment-102812</guid>
		<description>&quot;These breeders are every bit as cruel as dog-fight fans.&quot;

In many ways this is a true statement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;These breeders are every bit as cruel as dog-fight fans.&#8221;</p>
<p>In many ways this is a true statement.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Bri</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/bulldogs-inbreeding-and-correlated-response/comment-page-1/#comment-102811</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Bri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2011 00:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14563#comment-102811</guid>
		<description>The problem isn&#039;t simply inbreeding, but inbreeding without selection for vitality. If bulldogs had continued being used to bait bulls, a dangerous sport requiring speed, agility, endurance and general all-around toughness, I doubt they would be in the state they are.

But, then dog breeders would have a much harder time getting the &#039;ideal&#039; conformation. Those squashed faces and bowed legs would doom a dog in the ring. These breeders are every bit as cruel as dog-fight fans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem isn&#8217;t simply inbreeding, but inbreeding without selection for vitality. If bulldogs had continued being used to bait bulls, a dangerous sport requiring speed, agility, endurance and general all-around toughness, I doubt they would be in the state they are.</p>
<p>But, then dog breeders would have a much harder time getting the &#8216;ideal&#8217; conformation. Those squashed faces and bowed legs would doom a dog in the ring. These breeders are every bit as cruel as dog-fight fans.</p>
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		<title>By: Cathy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/bulldogs-inbreeding-and-correlated-response/comment-page-1/#comment-102810</link>
		<dc:creator>Cathy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Nov 2011 22:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14563#comment-102810</guid>
		<description>As an alum and current grad student at UGA, the article really struck home.  (I mean, I have a framed portrait of #8 on my wall and everything.)  That said, I wish the Seiler family would abandon the current Uga line and start from scratch.  The dogs just aren&#039;t healthy, and right now they&#039;re acting as a miserable extended metaphor for the budgetary system and Board of Regents for the university:  sure our campus looks great, but what&#039;s the point of all those new buildings if they can&#039;t afford to hire professors to fill them?  Same thing with Uga.  Sure, he&#039;s cute, but what&#039;s the point of a mascot if he is so sick he is going to die within a year?  It&#039;s heartbreaking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an alum and current grad student at UGA, the article really struck home.  (I mean, I have a framed portrait of #8 on my wall and everything.)  That said, I wish the Seiler family would abandon the current Uga line and start from scratch.  The dogs just aren&#8217;t healthy, and right now they&#8217;re acting as a miserable extended metaphor for the budgetary system and Board of Regents for the university:  sure our campus looks great, but what&#8217;s the point of all those new buildings if they can&#8217;t afford to hire professors to fill them?  Same thing with Uga.  Sure, he&#8217;s cute, but what&#8217;s the point of a mascot if he is so sick he is going to die within a year?  It&#8217;s heartbreaking.</p>
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