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	<title>Comments on: The Arab world&#8217;s demographic transition</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/</link>
	<description>Human evolution, genetics, genomics and their interstices</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 00:28:05 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: H</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99851</link>
		<dc:creator>H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2011 00:25:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99851</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s another dynamic working here as well: lower middle class Gulfie men are marrying at a huge rate foreign women from Egypt, ex-Soviet Union, Iran, India and the Philippines. They can&#039;t afford to marry GCC women, who are more likely to have a university education and aspire to marry solidly middle class guys. Local traditions aren&#039;t much in vogue either among this demographic: not many young university educated women are willing to marry guys with another wife, and despite the best efforts of some Shia clerics, temporary marriage now comes with a big stigma. The result is a big increase in spinsterhood for women in the more advanced GCC countries - to such an extent that in Bahrain at least it was a political issue. 

These mixed marriages have resulted in the rise of a new generation with Gulfie dads and foreign mums who have difficulty speaking in Arabic. The kids are usually brought up speaking English because this is spoken at home between the parents and with the maids. This is speeding up the smaller GCC states&#039; transition to a predominantly English speaking region.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s another dynamic working here as well: lower middle class Gulfie men are marrying at a huge rate foreign women from Egypt, ex-Soviet Union, Iran, India and the Philippines. They can&#8217;t afford to marry GCC women, who are more likely to have a university education and aspire to marry solidly middle class guys. Local traditions aren&#8217;t much in vogue either among this demographic: not many young university educated women are willing to marry guys with another wife, and despite the best efforts of some Shia clerics, temporary marriage now comes with a big stigma. The result is a big increase in spinsterhood for women in the more advanced GCC countries &#8211; to such an extent that in Bahrain at least it was a political issue. </p>
<p>These mixed marriages have resulted in the rise of a new generation with Gulfie dads and foreign mums who have difficulty speaking in Arabic. The kids are usually brought up speaking English because this is spoken at home between the parents and with the maids. This is speeding up the smaller GCC states&#8217; transition to a predominantly English speaking region.</p>
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		<title>By: leviticus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99599</link>
		<dc:creator>leviticus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2011 21:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99599</guid>
		<description>Wow, this was fascinating. It goes so against common, received wisdom (?).

Someone will have to tell Robert Spencer et al that the ME will not be a 21-century womb of nations, sending forth its hordes to demographically overwhelm the Decadent West. Of course, the Decadent West meme was already around in the 19th century. If those prognosticators had been correct, Europe would have already succumbed to a Eurasian horde of Russian or Chinese provenance. In other words, if the West declines, as we are doing, slowly abandoning the Enlightenment and reveling in a coarse faux populism, we&#039;ve nobody but ourselves to blame.

It&#039;s anecdotal evidence, but I can recall that when I was in the UAE several years ago, I didn&#039;t see hordes of Arab children. The ration of babies and kids to adults seemed about the same as in the US. At least, I wasn&#039;t under the impression of where did all these kids come from? Another factor keeping the birth rates in the UAE down is that the &quot;blue collar&quot; guest workers are usually away from their spouses back in Pakistan, Sri Lanka or the Philippines. I&#039;ve also been told that they have a strict policy of deportation for female guest workers who get pregnant.

What&#039;s interesting from your chart is the lack of a correlation between region and life expectancy and fertility. The rates are all over the map, there is no apparent North African vs. Peninsular grouping. One might argue for a high fertility zone in the North ME: Iraq, Syria, Jordan with a Levantine outlier.  


Considering the individual circumstances of these countries it isn&#039;t surprising, cross the border between the UAE and Oman and you instantly notice an economic difference. Not surprising, but still interesting, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, this was fascinating. It goes so against common, received wisdom (?).</p>
<p>Someone will have to tell Robert Spencer et al that the ME will not be a 21-century womb of nations, sending forth its hordes to demographically overwhelm the Decadent West. Of course, the Decadent West meme was already around in the 19th century. If those prognosticators had been correct, Europe would have already succumbed to a Eurasian horde of Russian or Chinese provenance. In other words, if the West declines, as we are doing, slowly abandoning the Enlightenment and reveling in a coarse faux populism, we&#8217;ve nobody but ourselves to blame.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s anecdotal evidence, but I can recall that when I was in the UAE several years ago, I didn&#8217;t see hordes of Arab children. The ration of babies and kids to adults seemed about the same as in the US. At least, I wasn&#8217;t under the impression of where did all these kids come from? Another factor keeping the birth rates in the UAE down is that the &#8220;blue collar&#8221; guest workers are usually away from their spouses back in Pakistan, Sri Lanka or the Philippines. I&#8217;ve also been told that they have a strict policy of deportation for female guest workers who get pregnant.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s interesting from your chart is the lack of a correlation between region and life expectancy and fertility. The rates are all over the map, there is no apparent North African vs. Peninsular grouping. One might argue for a high fertility zone in the North ME: Iraq, Syria, Jordan with a Levantine outlier.  </p>
<p>Considering the individual circumstances of these countries it isn&#8217;t surprising, cross the border between the UAE and Oman and you instantly notice an economic difference. Not surprising, but still interesting, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Sailer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99315</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Sailer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2011 00:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99315</guid>
		<description>&quot;Spengler&quot; was, for some number of years, a close associate of Lyndon Larouche, co-authoring at least one book with LaRouche. That said, I find him an interesting read in limited doses, as long as you are aware of his strong biases. For example, to his credit, he&#039;s been ahead of the media curve on the narrowing fertility gap between Jews in Israel and Palestinians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Spengler&#8221; was, for some number of years, a close associate of Lyndon Larouche, co-authoring at least one book with LaRouche. That said, I find him an interesting read in limited doses, as long as you are aware of his strong biases. For example, to his credit, he&#8217;s been ahead of the media curve on the narrowing fertility gap between Jews in Israel and Palestinians.</p>
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		<title>By: Archduke</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99255</link>
		<dc:creator>Archduke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2011 16:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99255</guid>
		<description>Also interesting to see that the countries with the highest birth rates today are also the ones with barely functioning central governments.  They are all likely to have high infant mortality, but perhaps there is also an element of self-help -- the state can&#039;t help me, so I can only count on many children to help me in older age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also interesting to see that the countries with the highest birth rates today are also the ones with barely functioning central governments.  They are all likely to have high infant mortality, but perhaps there is also an element of self-help &#8212; the state can&#8217;t help me, so I can only count on many children to help me in older age.</p>
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		<title>By: Emblazoned</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99250</link>
		<dc:creator>Emblazoned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2011 14:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99250</guid>
		<description>#29 I think Razib has been very gracious publishing your comments. If your points are demolished with simple but effective referencing as Razib has exhibited, it is poor form to cry arrogance. If your case is strong, refute your opponents points. Pleading offense is an emotional tactic designed to end discussions rather than develop them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#29 I think Razib has been very gracious publishing your comments. If your points are demolished with simple but effective referencing as Razib has exhibited, it is poor form to cry arrogance. If your case is strong, refute your opponents points. Pleading offense is an emotional tactic designed to end discussions rather than develop them.</p>
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		<title>By: omar</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99109</link>
		<dc:creator>omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 18:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99109</guid>
		<description>How would I know what goes on in Spengler&#039;s head, but I will have a go anyway. I think his agenda is Israeli survival, which he seems to believe can only be based on a serious crash in the &quot;Arab/Muslim&quot; world. Anyone who is not 24/7 committed to this zer0-sum game between Israel and the mad Muslims will gain little from reading him. 
Though he CAN be fun. Like many good propagandists, he has a deliciously vicious and wicked style...Since any human being is likely to have days where they want nothing better than to deliver a swift kick to someone&#039;s behind, there are definitely days when he is entertaining.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How would I know what goes on in Spengler&#8217;s head, but I will have a go anyway. I think his agenda is Israeli survival, which he seems to believe can only be based on a serious crash in the &#8220;Arab/Muslim&#8221; world. Anyone who is not 24/7 committed to this zer0-sum game between Israel and the mad Muslims will gain little from reading him.<br />
Though he CAN be fun. Like many good propagandists, he has a deliciously vicious and wicked style&#8230;Since any human being is likely to have days where they want nothing better than to deliver a swift kick to someone&#8217;s behind, there are definitely days when he is entertaining.</p>
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		<title>By: chris w</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99096</link>
		<dc:creator>chris w</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99096</guid>
		<description>If he&#039;s so famous, why are you the one who has heard of him?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If he&#8217;s so famous, why are you the one who has heard of him?</p>
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		<title>By: Sandgroper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99074</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandgroper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99074</guid>
		<description>&quot;incapable of accepting other people’s views or ways of thinking&quot;

&quot;basing your answer about Rosenzweig on some Google tool is so pathetic that it is funny&quot;

:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;incapable of accepting other people’s views or ways of thinking&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;basing your answer about Rosenzweig on some Google tool is so pathetic that it is funny&#8221;</p>
<p> <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99063</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99063</guid>
		<description>You know I can complain only to myself. I had promised myself not to write here anymore seeing the arrogant and insulting way you answer to people that for some reasons you don&#039;t like. If you are incapable of accepting other people&#039;s views or ways of thinking, you should maybe not run a blog open to the public. Or maybe you should see a psychiatrist.
By the way, basing your answer about Rosenzweig on some Google tool is so pathetic that it is funny.
Please fell free to &quot;ban me&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know I can complain only to myself. I had promised myself not to write here anymore seeing the arrogant and insulting way you answer to people that for some reasons you don&#8217;t like. If you are incapable of accepting other people&#8217;s views or ways of thinking, you should maybe not run a blog open to the public. Or maybe you should see a psychiatrist.<br />
By the way, basing your answer about Rosenzweig on some Google tool is so pathetic that it is funny.<br />
Please fell free to &#8220;ban me&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: JL</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99043</link>
		<dc:creator>JL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99043</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Huge numbers of Iranian women have become prostitutes.&lt;/i&gt;

As &lt;a href=&quot;http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/calling-out-spengler/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;pointed out&lt;/a&gt; by TGGP a long time ago, Goldman&#039;s claim about lots of Iranian women becoming prostitutes is a total fabrication. Unless he has some new sources for the claim, I don&#039;t buy it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Huge numbers of Iranian women have become prostitutes.</i></p>
<p>As <a href="http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/calling-out-spengler/" rel="nofollow">pointed out</a> by TGGP a long time ago, Goldman&#8217;s claim about lots of Iranian women becoming prostitutes is a total fabrication. Unless he has some new sources for the claim, I don&#8217;t buy it.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99019</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 07:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99019</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Sorry but it is difficult to take seriously someone who had never heard of Franz Rosenzweig, one of the most famous and most influential philosopher of the first half od the 20th century.&lt;/i&gt;

stop bullshitting.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Franz+Rosenzweig%2CMartin+Buber%2CBertrand+Russell%2CMartin+Heidegger%2CLudwig+Wittgenstein%2CKarl+Popper%2CG.+E.+More&amp;year_start=1900&amp;year_end=2000&amp;corpus=0&amp;smoothing=3&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;his fame was modest in the english speaking word&lt;/a&gt;. are you ignorant, or are you too being mendacious?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Sorry but it is difficult to take seriously someone who had never heard of Franz Rosenzweig, one of the most famous and most influential philosopher of the first half od the 20th century.</i></p>
<p>stop bullshitting.</p>
<p><a href="http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Franz+Rosenzweig%2CMartin+Buber%2CBertrand+Russell%2CMartin+Heidegger%2CLudwig+Wittgenstein%2CKarl+Popper%2CG.+E.+More&#038;year_start=1900&#038;year_end=2000&#038;corpus=0&#038;smoothing=3" rel="nofollow">his fame was modest in the english speaking word</a>. are you ignorant, or are you too being mendacious?</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99016</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 06:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99016</guid>
		<description>#3
A recent study of the Israeli Office of Statistics shows that the fertility of the haredim went down 15% between 2001 and 2009 from 7.5 to 6.5 while secular fertility rose from 2.15 to 2.3 - and the zionist religious staying put at 4.3. Of course, the share of haredim is rising in the population, but still this is not the only explanation.

#24
Sorry but it is difficult to take seriously someone who had never heard of Franz Rosenzweig, one of the most famous and most influential philosopher of the first half od the 20th century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#3<br />
A recent study of the Israeli Office of Statistics shows that the fertility of the haredim went down 15% between 2001 and 2009 from 7.5 to 6.5 while secular fertility rose from 2.15 to 2.3 &#8211; and the zionist religious staying put at 4.3. Of course, the share of haredim is rising in the population, but still this is not the only explanation.</p>
<p>#24<br />
Sorry but it is difficult to take seriously someone who had never heard of Franz Rosenzweig, one of the most famous and most influential philosopher of the first half od the 20th century.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99005</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 04:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99005</guid>
		<description>hey instalaunchers: i&#039;m actually not as ignorant of demographics as you seem to think. e.g.: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/10/the-wheel-of-history-turns-to-the-gods/

i was surprised by the magnitude of the decline among &lt;b&gt;gulf arabs.&lt;/b&gt; i&#039;ve blogged/am aware of the iranian fertility crash. there are few groups, like orthodox jews, which still exhibit positive fertility with socioeconomic status. i thought perhaps salafi rent-consuming arabs might be similar (also going by the fecundity of the house of saud).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey instalaunchers: i&#8217;m actually not as ignorant of demographics as you seem to think. e.g.: <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/10/the-wheel-of-history-turns-to-the-gods/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/10/the-wheel-of-history-turns-to-the-gods/</a></p>
<p>i was surprised by the magnitude of the decline among <b>gulf arabs.</b> i&#8217;ve blogged/am aware of the iranian fertility crash. there are few groups, like orthodox jews, which still exhibit positive fertility with socioeconomic status. i thought perhaps salafi rent-consuming arabs might be similar (also going by the fecundity of the house of saud).</p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99001</link>
		<dc:creator>razib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 03:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99001</guid>
		<description>#10, man, i loved your fiction when i had time for that stuff! 

#11, he&#039;s either ignorant or mendacious. i think mendacious. people who find him awesomely insightful i assume are either stupid or ignorant.

http://takimag.com/article/who_is_spengler#axzz1cbwx9hbm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#10, man, i loved your fiction when i had time for that stuff! </p>
<p>#11, he&#8217;s either ignorant or mendacious. i think mendacious. people who find him awesomely insightful i assume are either stupid or ignorant.</p>
<p><a href="http://takimag.com/article/who_is_spengler#axzz1cbwx9hbm" rel="nofollow">http://takimag.com/article/who_is_spengler#axzz1cbwx9hbm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Marty</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/11/the-arab-worlds-demographic-transition/comment-page-1/#comment-99000</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 03:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=14385#comment-99000</guid>
		<description>Well, you don&#039;t think much of Goldman, but he identified this long enough ago to have written and published a book about it with a plausible (I do not know how correct) explanation, and you&#039;re just &quot;stumbling on a weird datum&quot; now and from this post it&#039;s clear you don&#039;t have a clue how to explain it.  Maybe you should show a little humility and take input from wherever it is offered, before just dismissing things ad hominem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, you don&#8217;t think much of Goldman, but he identified this long enough ago to have written and published a book about it with a plausible (I do not know how correct) explanation, and you&#8217;re just &#8220;stumbling on a weird datum&#8221; now and from this post it&#8217;s clear you don&#8217;t have a clue how to explain it.  Maybe you should show a little humility and take input from wherever it is offered, before just dismissing things ad hominem.</p>
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