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	<title>Comments on: Are Sardinians like Iberians?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/are-sardinians-like-iberians/</link>
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		<title>By: free thinker</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/are-sardinians-like-iberians/#comment-40766</link>
		<dc:creator>free thinker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2012 19:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15911#comment-40766</guid>
		<description>@tt9j

Just in case the Iceman has some Paleolithic admixture  (The Alps strike  me as a place where hunters and gatherers  could have held out against the farmers quite a while)  I think we should get some genomes that are more certainly pure Neolithic--from the bodies buried at Stonehenge  for example.  I really like my suggestion of the Kurgan Mound Builders as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@tt9j</p>
<p>Just in case the Iceman has some Paleolithic admixture  (The Alps strike  me as a place where hunters and gatherers  could have held out against the farmers quite a while)  I think we should get some genomes that are more certainly pure Neolithic&#8211;from the bodies buried at Stonehenge  for example.  I really like my suggestion of the Kurgan Mound Builders as well.</p>
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		<title>By: tt9j</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/are-sardinians-like-iberians/#comment-40765</link>
		<dc:creator>tt9j</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:15:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15911#comment-40765</guid>
		<description>Since we are OT at this point, anyway, may I suggest full sequence attempts on Cheddar Man or the other Cheddar tooth? Those specimens are clearly pre-Neolithic (based on age). If Bryan Sykes can get DNA from them with 1996 techniques, just think what Svante Paabo et al. could do with them 16 years (several sequencing generations) later?

Also OT: It would be interesting and informative to survey our great RK&#039;s blog readership for recommendations for which ancient MH specimens should be sampled for sequencing, as RK did for existing human populations (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/09/which-undersampled-groups-would-you-like-to-see/). RK&#039;s fabulous reader base should turn up some remarkable candidates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since we are OT at this point, anyway, may I suggest full sequence attempts on Cheddar Man or the other Cheddar tooth? Those specimens are clearly pre-Neolithic (based on age). If Bryan Sykes can get DNA from them with 1996 techniques, just think what Svante Paabo et al. could do with them 16 years (several sequencing generations) later?</p>
<p>Also OT: It would be interesting and informative to survey our great RK&#8217;s blog readership for recommendations for which ancient MH specimens should be sampled for sequencing, as RK did for existing human populations (<a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/09/which-undersampled-groups-would-you-like-to-see/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/09/which-undersampled-groups-would-you-like-to-see/</a>). RK&#8217;s fabulous reader base should turn up some remarkable candidates.</p>
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		<title>By: Halvorson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/are-sardinians-like-iberians/#comment-40764</link>
		<dc:creator>Halvorson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2012 02:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15911#comment-40764</guid>
		<description>My original source for the Canary Islands settlement date was the the venerable Wikipedia, but I have since upgraded it to this:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n2/full/5201075a.html

@8

As of right now, it isn&#039;t generally accepted that anybody is primarily descended from UP Europeans, even the Europeans themselves. Berbers seem to be mostly descended from Afroasiatic migrants from the Middle East, although they have both an unusually high frequency of mtDNA haplogroup H and a weird maternal connection to the Saami which suggests distant (emphasis on distant) affiliations with old Europeans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199377/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My original source for the Canary Islands settlement date was the the venerable Wikipedia, but I have since upgraded it to this:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n2/full/5201075a.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n2/full/5201075a.html</a></p>
<p>@8</p>
<p>As of right now, it isn&#8217;t generally accepted that anybody is primarily descended from UP Europeans, even the Europeans themselves. Berbers seem to be mostly descended from Afroasiatic migrants from the Middle East, although they have both an unusually high frequency of mtDNA haplogroup H and a weird maternal connection to the Saami which suggests distant (emphasis on distant) affiliations with old Europeans.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199377/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199377/</a></p>
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		<title>By: free thinker</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/are-sardinians-like-iberians/#comment-40763</link>
		<dc:creator>free thinker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2012 00:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15911#comment-40763</guid>
		<description>…which is what you would expect given that the islands were only settled from NW Africa less than 2,000 years ago.

I thought it was generally accepted that the Berbers were UP Europeans who migrated to Africa during the Younger Dryas--probably settling in the Canaries along the way.  Why would you assume the migration was in the other direction.  The Berbers are clearly not indigenous to Africa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>…which is what you would expect given that the islands were only settled from NW Africa less than 2,000 years ago.</p>
<p>I thought it was generally accepted that the Berbers were UP Europeans who migrated to Africa during the Younger Dryas&#8211;probably settling in the Canaries along the way.  Why would you assume the migration was in the other direction.  The Berbers are clearly not indigenous to Africa.</p>
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		<title>By: pconroy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/are-sardinians-like-iberians/#comment-40762</link>
		<dc:creator>pconroy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2012 23:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15911#comment-40762</guid>
		<description>@Halvorsen,
 Some info on early Guanche traditions:
See here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands

Alternatively, it is said that the original inhabitants of the island, Guanches, used to worship dogs, mummified them and treated dogs generally as holy animals.[22] The ancient Greeks also knew about a people, living far to the west, who are the &quot;dog-headed ones&quot;, who worshipped dogs on an island.[22] Some hypothesize that the Canary Islands dog-worship and the ancient Egyptian cult of the dog-headed god, Anubis are closely connected[23] but there is no explanation given as to which one was first.


Also, as I speculated about 3 years ago, I think we&#039;ll find evidence that Y-DNA E is from Eurasia. There is no Y-DNA DE* found in Africa AFAIK, but recently some has been found in Syria.
Also, I may be misreading your intent, but the jury is out on whether Y-DNA J is old in Europe. Of course Y-DNA R1b1a2 is very young in Europe, so not finding that in the Guanche would be expected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Halvorsen,<br />
 Some info on early Guanche traditions:<br />
See here &#8211; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands</a></p>
<p>Alternatively, it is said that the original inhabitants of the island, Guanches, used to worship dogs, mummified them and treated dogs generally as holy animals.[22] The ancient Greeks also knew about a people, living far to the west, who are the &#8220;dog-headed ones&#8221;, who worshipped dogs on an island.[22] Some hypothesize that the Canary Islands dog-worship and the ancient Egyptian cult of the dog-headed god, Anubis are closely connected[23] but there is no explanation given as to which one was first.</p>
<p>Also, as I speculated about 3 years ago, I think we&#8217;ll find evidence that Y-DNA E is from Eurasia. There is no Y-DNA DE* found in Africa AFAIK, but recently some has been found in Syria.<br />
Also, I may be misreading your intent, but the jury is out on whether Y-DNA J is old in Europe. Of course Y-DNA R1b1a2 is very young in Europe, so not finding that in the Guanche would be expected.</p>
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		<title>By: pconroy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/are-sardinians-like-iberians/#comment-40761</link>
		<dc:creator>pconroy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2012 23:36:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15911#comment-40761</guid>
		<description>@Halvorsen,
...which is what you would expect given that the islands were only settled from NW Africa less than 2,000 years ago.

Where are you getting that from?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Halvorsen,<br />
&#8230;which is what you would expect given that the islands were only settled from NW Africa less than 2,000 years ago.</p>
<p>Where are you getting that from?</p>
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		<title>By: pconroy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/are-sardinians-like-iberians/#comment-40760</link>
		<dc:creator>pconroy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2012 23:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15911#comment-40760</guid>
		<description>So in Dienekes&#039;s K12b, the Basques have none of the Caucasus component, while both my parents (Irish) had about 2.4% Caucasus.
However in Davidski/Polako&#039;s WE12 run, my mother had 5.4%, while my father had no Caucasus, which seems to be rare in this WE run.

Meanwhile in Maju&#039;s list of Basque mtDNA, my father matches one from Bearn - H5&#039;36.

Doug McDonald also estimates my father at 76% Irish/24% Basque.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So in Dienekes&#8217;s K12b, the Basques have none of the Caucasus component, while both my parents (Irish) had about 2.4% Caucasus.<br />
However in Davidski/Polako&#8217;s WE12 run, my mother had 5.4%, while my father had no Caucasus, which seems to be rare in this WE run.</p>
<p>Meanwhile in Maju&#8217;s list of Basque mtDNA, my father matches one from Bearn &#8211; H5&#8217;36.</p>
<p>Doug McDonald also estimates my father at 76% Irish/24% Basque.</p>
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		<title>By: Halvorson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/are-sardinians-like-iberians/#comment-40759</link>
		<dc:creator>Halvorson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2012 20:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15911#comment-40759</guid>
		<description>The Guanche are not the closest morphologically to Cro-Magnons. See Loring Brace and co. here:

http://www.pnas.org/content/103/1/242.full

&quot;Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested.&quot;

Canary Y haplogroups are mostly J and E, which is what you would expect given that the islands were only settled from NW Africa less than 2,000 years ago.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/08/ancient-y-chromosomes-from-canary.html

Jantz and Owsley found affinities between UP Europeans and medieval Norse, but I doubt modern Norwegians are a perfect proxy for their ancestors. Carleton Coon seemed to think that the Iron Age Norwegians were exceptional UP survivors and that their descendants have since regressed to the Scandinavian mean.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/affinities-of-early-upper-paleolithic.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Guanche are not the closest morphologically to Cro-Magnons. See Loring Brace and co. here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.pnas.org/content/103/1/242.full" rel="nofollow">http://www.pnas.org/content/103/1/242.full</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested.&#8221;</p>
<p>Canary Y haplogroups are mostly J and E, which is what you would expect given that the islands were only settled from NW Africa less than 2,000 years ago.</p>
<p><a href="http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/08/ancient-y-chromosomes-from-canary.html" rel="nofollow">http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/08/ancient-y-chromosomes-from-canary.html</a></p>
<p>Jantz and Owsley found affinities between UP Europeans and medieval Norse, but I doubt modern Norwegians are a perfect proxy for their ancestors. Carleton Coon seemed to think that the Iron Age Norwegians were exceptional UP survivors and that their descendants have since regressed to the Scandinavian mean.</p>
<p><a href="http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/affinities-of-early-upper-paleolithic.html" rel="nofollow">http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/affinities-of-early-upper-paleolithic.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: pconroy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/are-sardinians-like-iberians/#comment-40758</link>
		<dc:creator>pconroy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2012 17:52:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15911#comment-40758</guid>
		<description>@FreeThinker,

I&#039;m all for a Guanche Full Genome, as they are the nearest morphologically to the Cro-Magnon people of the  Late Paleolithic in Europe. They are also probably related to the Iberomaurusian culture of the Maghreb (North African littoral).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberomaurusian

Plus the Guanche mummified their dead and there are plenty of well preserved mummies in the Canaries and possibly elsewhere in museum collections.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@FreeThinker,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m all for a Guanche Full Genome, as they are the nearest morphologically to the Cro-Magnon people of the  Late Paleolithic in Europe. They are also probably related to the Iberomaurusian culture of the Maghreb (North African littoral).</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberomaurusian" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberomaurusian</a></p>
<p>Plus the Guanche mummified their dead and there are plenty of well preserved mummies in the Canaries and possibly elsewhere in museum collections.</p>
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		<title>By: free thinker</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/are-sardinians-like-iberians/#comment-40757</link>
		<dc:creator>free thinker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2012 17:32:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15911#comment-40757</guid>
		<description>The fact that the Iceman clusters with the Sardinians is no surprise.  I have always felt that the Southern Europeans in Deniekes study were just a proxy group for the Neolithic expansion.  The fact that he is more distant from the present inhabitants of Northern Italy is also what you would expect.  The lack of any Indo-European admixture is enough to explain that.  What I was curious about is whether the Iceman had any paleolithic admixture.  I would like to see some admixture runs which included people like the Saami and Berbers.  The purest group of Paleolithic Europeans which survived to modern times were the Guanches of the Canary Islands.  The Spanish didn&#039;t invade until 1402--so it should be possible to get a full genome from skeletal remains prior to that time.  If we want a better proxy group than the Lithuanians for the Indo-Europeans, why don&#039;t we do a genome for one of the bog people.  Or if the Indo-Europeans were already an admixed people by the time they got to Europe, we could probably go back to the Kurgan mound builders with a fair chance of success.  We are just getting started with this stuff, but we need older and purer examples of the founding populations of Europe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that the Iceman clusters with the Sardinians is no surprise.  I have always felt that the Southern Europeans in Deniekes study were just a proxy group for the Neolithic expansion.  The fact that he is more distant from the present inhabitants of Northern Italy is also what you would expect.  The lack of any Indo-European admixture is enough to explain that.  What I was curious about is whether the Iceman had any paleolithic admixture.  I would like to see some admixture runs which included people like the Saami and Berbers.  The purest group of Paleolithic Europeans which survived to modern times were the Guanches of the Canary Islands.  The Spanish didn&#8217;t invade until 1402&#8211;so it should be possible to get a full genome from skeletal remains prior to that time.  If we want a better proxy group than the Lithuanians for the Indo-Europeans, why don&#8217;t we do a genome for one of the bog people.  Or if the Indo-Europeans were already an admixed people by the time they got to Europe, we could probably go back to the Kurgan mound builders with a fair chance of success.  We are just getting started with this stuff, but we need older and purer examples of the founding populations of Europe.</p>
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		<title>By: Maju</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/are-sardinians-like-iberians/#comment-40756</link>
		<dc:creator>Maju</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15911#comment-40756</guid>
		<description>&quot;there really wasn’t much variation added from the second dimension on in this relatively homogeneous sample&quot;

That&#039;s like saying that Tuscans are like (some) Spaniards, almost a subset of Iberians. I really miss the usual E-W Mediterranean axis in this PCA, why does it shows up this way?

Then also who are those Spaniards that diverge more than Basques in the PC1 and PC2 positive extremes? They are like &quot;super-Basques&quot; but with Spanish label.

The combined answer is, I understand, that the only thing measured here is two &quot;Basque&quot; (Basque-plus) components: PC1 is a component that is highest in the Basque-plus cluster and lowest in Russians/North Europeans, instead PC2 is a component highest also in the Basque-plus cluster and lowest among some Spaniards and Italians (notably Sardinians).

Sardinians, like North Basques, seem to have relatively high PC1 component but not as extremes as the &quot;South Basque cum some Spaniards&quot; cluster. The PC2 component seems instead enhanced (after the Basque-plus extreme cluster) for North Basques and North Europeans.

Tuscans and the Spaniards clustering nearby are only defined in negative terms of non-Basqueness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;there really wasn’t much variation added from the second dimension on in this relatively homogeneous sample&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s like saying that Tuscans are like (some) Spaniards, almost a subset of Iberians. I really miss the usual E-W Mediterranean axis in this PCA, why does it shows up this way?</p>
<p>Then also who are those Spaniards that diverge more than Basques in the PC1 and PC2 positive extremes? They are like &#8220;super-Basques&#8221; but with Spanish label.</p>
<p>The combined answer is, I understand, that the only thing measured here is two &#8220;Basque&#8221; (Basque-plus) components: PC1 is a component that is highest in the Basque-plus cluster and lowest in Russians/North Europeans, instead PC2 is a component highest also in the Basque-plus cluster and lowest among some Spaniards and Italians (notably Sardinians).</p>
<p>Sardinians, like North Basques, seem to have relatively high PC1 component but not as extremes as the &#8220;South Basque cum some Spaniards&#8221; cluster. The PC2 component seems instead enhanced (after the Basque-plus extreme cluster) for North Basques and North Europeans.</p>
<p>Tuscans and the Spaniards clustering nearby are only defined in negative terms of non-Basqueness.</p>
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		<title>By: Dienekes</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/are-sardinians-like-iberians/#comment-40755</link>
		<dc:creator>Dienekes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15911#comment-40755</guid>
		<description>In the K12b

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html

The &quot;Atlantic_Med&quot; component is bimodal in Sardinians and Iberians

Sardinians differ from Basques by having higher Caucasus/no North European compared to no Caucasus/higher North European

It is rather upsetting that the long-awaited arrival of the Iceman genome consists -at the moment- of a genome browser and no download options. As such, it is not really usable at the moment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the K12b</p>
<p><a href="http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html" rel="nofollow">http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html</a></p>
<p>The &#8220;Atlantic_Med&#8221; component is bimodal in Sardinians and Iberians</p>
<p>Sardinians differ from Basques by having higher Caucasus/no North European compared to no Caucasus/higher North European</p>
<p>It is rather upsetting that the long-awaited arrival of the Iceman genome consists -at the moment- of a genome browser and no download options. As such, it is not really usable at the moment.</p>
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