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	<title>Comments on: Everlasting permanence</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/</link>
	<description>Human evolution, genetics, genomics and their interstices</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 03:28:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123790</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2012 14:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123790</guid>
		<description>Cuneiform tablets were baked only by accident. They weren&#039;t intended to last that long, nor would they have if it hadn&#039;t been for disastrous fires that destroyed the buildings they were in. And the Mycenaean Greeks had them too, at places like Pylos.

In both cases many of the tablets didn&#039;t survive either, as collapsing buildings turned them into dust, or pieces to small to put back together.

You can&#039;t put everything we&#039;ve written in a medium that will last forever, under any kind of circumstance. Get used to it.

(Type: &quot;a lacunA,&quot; not &quot;a lacunAE.&quot; Speaking of those dead languages...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cuneiform tablets were baked only by accident. They weren&#8217;t intended to last that long, nor would they have if it hadn&#8217;t been for disastrous fires that destroyed the buildings they were in. And the Mycenaean Greeks had them too, at places like Pylos.</p>
<p>In both cases many of the tablets didn&#8217;t survive either, as collapsing buildings turned them into dust, or pieces to small to put back together.</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t put everything we&#8217;ve written in a medium that will last forever, under any kind of circumstance. Get used to it.</p>
<p>(Type: &#8220;a lacunA,&#8221; not &#8220;a lacunAE.&#8221; Speaking of those dead languages&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Marcel Oyzmantra</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123647</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcel Oyzmantra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 19:46:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123647</guid>
		<description>I propose a storage on the moon of digital knowledge. Preferably all of it. Maybe in several different storagespaces duplicates. And on earth an explanation how to get there. Preferably on stone in certain grottoes. Maybe every continent one or two. Also, on the moon or on earth, an explantion how to use a computer or such thing. It will direct the new people towards a big goal, thus speeding up their history, and also make it possible to save all knowledge the best way possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I propose a storage on the moon of digital knowledge. Preferably all of it. Maybe in several different storagespaces duplicates. And on earth an explanation how to get there. Preferably on stone in certain grottoes. Maybe every continent one or two. Also, on the moon or on earth, an explantion how to use a computer or such thing. It will direct the new people towards a big goal, thus speeding up their history, and also make it possible to save all knowledge the best way possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Aidan Kehoe</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123617</link>
		<dc:creator>Aidan Kehoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 16:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123617</guid>
		<description>#26, the one doesn&#039;t exclude the other!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#26, the one doesn&#8217;t exclude the other!</p>
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		<title>By: miko</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123616</link>
		<dc:creator>miko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 16:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123616</guid>
		<description>&quot;#22 – We are all Irish!&quot; 

Really? Then why does my gag reflex kick in if I hear more than 5 seconds of an add for Celtic Sojourn?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;#22 – We are all Irish!&#8221; </p>
<p>Really? Then why does my gag reflex kick in if I hear more than 5 seconds of an add for Celtic Sojourn?</p>
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		<title>By: Sandgroper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123614</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandgroper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 15:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123614</guid>
		<description>#22 - We are all Irish!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#22 &#8211; We are all Irish!</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Bri</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123500</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Bri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 20:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123500</guid>
		<description>No need to use some special, unusual plastic. Common and cheap plastics exist that will last for centuries if simply protected from sunlight. Just ask your local environmentalist. They&#039;ll tell you that plastics last &#039;forever&#039;. They don&#039;t, not really, but do last a good long time.
Plastic has the added benefit that it isn&#039;t good for burning, it stinks, so barbarians won&#039;t be using it for firewood much. Insects and rodents don&#039;t like to eat it either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No need to use some special, unusual plastic. Common and cheap plastics exist that will last for centuries if simply protected from sunlight. Just ask your local environmentalist. They&#8217;ll tell you that plastics last &#8216;forever&#8217;. They don&#8217;t, not really, but do last a good long time.<br />
Plastic has the added benefit that it isn&#8217;t good for burning, it stinks, so barbarians won&#8217;t be using it for firewood much. Insects and rodents don&#8217;t like to eat it either.</p>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123489</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 19:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123489</guid>
		<description>even when you preserve the wording, the meaning is fluid. 

i.e. no one just picks up shakespeare, reads it, and fully understands it. It must be learned. 

Because, really, &quot;I bite my thumb at thee!&quot; makes no sense until someone with extra knowledge elucidates you. Which is why we have the annotated shakespeare.

Asking how much of the ancient literature that we do have is fully understood is perhaps a better way to attack this problem.  Digital knowledge is fine (we&#039;re coming up on memristive storage, which keeps sans power) - so maybe a way to package tons of knowledge in a format such as that (which will, of course, be tiny) and a package that contains successive layers of instructions on how to build access the deeper layers. A.k.a. a Rosetta stone that &#039;translates&#039; by bestowing the knowledge of how to bootstrap yourself into a technological society

(apologies if I&#039;m not making much sense. the immune system attack that&#039;s currently being perpetuated upon my bodily invaders in slowing my brain down)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>even when you preserve the wording, the meaning is fluid. </p>
<p>i.e. no one just picks up shakespeare, reads it, and fully understands it. It must be learned. </p>
<p>Because, really, &#8220;I bite my thumb at thee!&#8221; makes no sense until someone with extra knowledge elucidates you. Which is why we have the annotated shakespeare.</p>
<p>Asking how much of the ancient literature that we do have is fully understood is perhaps a better way to attack this problem.  Digital knowledge is fine (we&#8217;re coming up on memristive storage, which keeps sans power) &#8211; so maybe a way to package tons of knowledge in a format such as that (which will, of course, be tiny) and a package that contains successive layers of instructions on how to build access the deeper layers. A.k.a. a Rosetta stone that &#8216;translates&#8217; by bestowing the knowledge of how to bootstrap yourself into a technological society</p>
<p>(apologies if I&#8217;m not making much sense. the immune system attack that&#8217;s currently being perpetuated upon my bodily invaders in slowing my brain down)</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Giancola</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123483</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Giancola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123483</guid>
		<description>pcon, I love how you turn everything into an irish fact...or how your posts usually have at least the base substance of the irish perspective. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pcon, I love how you turn everything into an irish fact&#8230;or how your posts usually have at least the base substance of the irish perspective. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123479</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:32:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123479</guid>
		<description>I agree with #17. I believe that it&#039;s possible to create a lot of diferent technological solutions to the preservation problem, but the real issue is what to preserve, and where, and by whom. Probably it&#039;s inevitable that what will ultimately be preserved will actually depend on a complicated mix of cultural, historical, technological and contingent aspects. The outcome will not be much qualitatively diferent from what has happened since the time of cuneiform tablets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with #17. I believe that it&#8217;s possible to create a lot of diferent technological solutions to the preservation problem, but the real issue is what to preserve, and where, and by whom. Probably it&#8217;s inevitable that what will ultimately be preserved will actually depend on a complicated mix of cultural, historical, technological and contingent aspects. The outcome will not be much qualitatively diferent from what has happened since the time of cuneiform tablets.</p>
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		<title>By: ohwilleke</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123472</link>
		<dc:creator>ohwilleke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 16:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123472</guid>
		<description>There are some other pretty important factors in the non-continuity of written texts.  

The library at Alexandria and Byblos were both sacked, in the case of Alexandria, at least, multiple times.

There were also at least a couple of organized and systemic purges of pagan and heretical documents in the late Roman Empire/early Byzantine Empire, and minor echoes of these efforts in the Middle Ages.  They were organized a lot like the 1980s war on drugs, with draconian punishments for people found possessing pagan works and relics and worship places, property where it was found subject to civil forfeiture, and so on.  Many pagan and heretical documents are know today only by references to them by orthodox Christian apologies that refer to them in the course of trying to refute them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are some other pretty important factors in the non-continuity of written texts.  </p>
<p>The library at Alexandria and Byblos were both sacked, in the case of Alexandria, at least, multiple times.</p>
<p>There were also at least a couple of organized and systemic purges of pagan and heretical documents in the late Roman Empire/early Byzantine Empire, and minor echoes of these efforts in the Middle Ages.  They were organized a lot like the 1980s war on drugs, with draconian punishments for people found possessing pagan works and relics and worship places, property where it was found subject to civil forfeiture, and so on.  Many pagan and heretical documents are know today only by references to them by orthodox Christian apologies that refer to them in the course of trying to refute them.</p>
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		<title>By: thm</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123462</link>
		<dc:creator>thm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:53:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123462</guid>
		<description>As a thought experiment, I&#039;ve wondered what archaeologists in a post-technological civilization a few hundred years from now might make of, say, books like Wordperfect for Dummies or Teach Yourself C in 24 Hours. Certainly they&#039;d look like magical instruction manuals, and perhaps like religious documents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a thought experiment, I&#8217;ve wondered what archaeologists in a post-technological civilization a few hundred years from now might make of, say, books like Wordperfect for Dummies or Teach Yourself C in 24 Hours. Certainly they&#8217;d look like magical instruction manuals, and perhaps like religious documents.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandgroper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123454</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandgroper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 14:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123454</guid>
		<description>Tsunami present an interesting problem - they are cyclical, but typically recur with a frequency of hundreds, or even thousands, of years. This presents the problem of how to communicate information to people hundreds or thousands of years into the future that might be vital to their safety.  Historically, the Japanese have had some ways, but I suspect these have worked because they were Japanese, whereas they might not be a reliable means in some other cultures.

#13 - Violet, I once had the dubious pleasure of excavating an old garbage dump for bridge foundations. The garbage had been dumped into a peat swamp that was mildly acidic. Amongst other things that we found were a 1920s car body, bright shiny metal without any sign of rust, and hundreds of reels of old movie film that appeared to be in excellent condition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tsunami present an interesting problem &#8211; they are cyclical, but typically recur with a frequency of hundreds, or even thousands, of years. This presents the problem of how to communicate information to people hundreds or thousands of years into the future that might be vital to their safety.  Historically, the Japanese have had some ways, but I suspect these have worked because they were Japanese, whereas they might not be a reliable means in some other cultures.</p>
<p>#13 &#8211; Violet, I once had the dubious pleasure of excavating an old garbage dump for bridge foundations. The garbage had been dumped into a peat swamp that was mildly acidic. Amongst other things that we found were a 1920s car body, bright shiny metal without any sign of rust, and hundreds of reels of old movie film that appeared to be in excellent condition.</p>
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		<title>By: miko</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123303</link>
		<dc:creator>miko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2012 23:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123303</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t believe Jonathan Franzen thinks compost (books) is a medium with any permanence. Skynet will know what was on everyone&#039;s Kindle, and likely won&#039;t give a shit about any of it. 

I think we&#039;re probably looking at 1000s of years, so maybe plastic is best. But what to preserve?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t believe Jonathan Franzen thinks compost (books) is a medium with any permanence. Skynet will know what was on everyone&#8217;s Kindle, and likely won&#8217;t give a shit about any of it. </p>
<p>I think we&#8217;re probably looking at 1000s of years, so maybe plastic is best. But what to preserve?</p>
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		<title>By: pconroy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123289</link>
		<dc:creator>pconroy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2012 22:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123289</guid>
		<description>#15, Yeah, hard plastic tablets - we have to assume in a coming Dark Age, that media to read things such as magnetic disks will be unavailable. 

So just like the Pyramids and their secrets, we need to be like the Mormons, and place these plastic writing tablets in vaults deep in mountains - possible a few well chosen locations per continent - so that future generation can decipher what came before - or the alien inheritors of the earth can discover them for their own amusement!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#15, Yeah, hard plastic tablets &#8211; we have to assume in a coming Dark Age, that media to read things such as magnetic disks will be unavailable. </p>
<p>So just like the Pyramids and their secrets, we need to be like the Mormons, and place these plastic writing tablets in vaults deep in mountains &#8211; possible a few well chosen locations per continent &#8211; so that future generation can decipher what came before &#8211; or the alien inheritors of the earth can discover them for their own amusement!</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/everlasting-permanence/comment-page-1/#comment-123286</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=15709#comment-123286</guid>
		<description>how about plastics? you can make LOTs of them, it&#039;s light. yes, it degrades, but we don&#039;t need FOREVER.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>how about plastics? you can make LOTs of them, it&#8217;s light. yes, it degrades, but we don&#8217;t need FOREVER.</p>
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