Or went there from Asia. That after all has been the direction of migration for a very long time.

I am just a clueless layman wandering by, but it doesn’t seem obvious to me that those traits originated in Europe. They either fade out the farther west you go or where they occur in those areas, they are due to fairly recent migration. In particular light eyes – not blue color but pale green,blue or brown – seem to become more common the further east you go.

Firstly, (fairly) light skin is quite common all over Eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus, Iran, and nearby eastern regions all the way to the Altai and Eastern Siberia – so its presence in Afghanistan, Northern Pakistan and NW India would be expected due to diffusion, alone.

Secondly, while there is historic and present blondism all the way to western China, those migrations – even while likely IE – have nothing to do with with Indo-Iranian. Tocharian sits on a different branch at a different time frame, and today’s and ancient y-DNA of the steppes between the Two Great Lakes doesn’t match the region of interest. Thus, it is (IMO) more likely that IE entered the region through a more southerly path – from Anatolia through Iran and East. The latter may have involved lighter skin and a slight increase in Caucasian features – but IMO it is likely that the region harbored a good deal of Caucasian features in the first place, because it may have very well been its origin.

The first one shows the Pathan samples to be from a region around Peshawar, but it’s a fairly large region.

The second link gives exact coordinates, somewhere around Kurram Agency in FATA.

I’ll admit my caveats on Kashmiri Pandits are pretty weak tea. I’m not hypothesizing a close relationship, just saying all the data isn’t in. Kashmiris are the only Dardic group which number in the millions, live an a fairly large lowland area, and have had somewhat extensive contact with India as a whole. I do think sampling some of the nearby groups, like the Khowar, Phalura, Kati, Gujari, etc. may show something interesting however. Or not. But it would be interesting to have the data regardless.

As to you other point on the “Europeanness” of light features, it is well taken. Both the hypothesis of proto-Indo-European as agricultural expansion from the near east, or a elite-based dominance based upon horse culture, have some merits, although I know consensus has been drifting back to the latter in recent years.

However, it seems unlikely that blue eyes, for example, entered South Asia with the initial expansion of (Dravidian?) farmers, given they are almost unknown in South India. Indeed, in general, light coloration peaks relatively close to the Swat Valley, which is also the first place the Aryans were thought to have entered South Asia. This plus evidence of blue eyes from Tarim mummies, and remains in Central Asia, suggests that even if they didn’t originate in Europe, Indo-Europeans almost certainly brought them in.

So I’ll take back fractional European ancestry. I will note, however, that Deinekes analysis does show “North European” ancestry to a fractional degree in the region however. It may be this is not really North European, of course, it’s just a near eastern cluster which, like blue eyes, expanded dramatically for some reason when it reached Northern Europe. But even if there wasn’t a true migration out of Europe, this genetic component could still very well have common antecedents.

non-trivial point: the regions with the highest fractions of a given allele may not be the point of origin of a given allele. some researchers from a few years back claim that the blue eye variants may be west asian in origin, though they are at highest frequency in northeast europe. IOW, blue eye allele may derive from a common west asian source. rose in frequency in northeast europe, and no so much in south asia (due to natural selection).

do you want to bet? i’ve seen enough indian populations sampled that i think no, there’s not going to be much gained by sampling every single north indian group in relation to this question. how much money are you willing to put down? zack might get the appropriate populations at some point within the next year. (i’m asking you to bet because your concerns strike me as real weak, and i wonder if you just don’t want to give up)

I saw Kashmiris were in the analysis, and seem to not be very closely related at all. In one sense, this is a bit surprising, but there are a lot of variables here. Even considering only Indian Kashmir, there are a lot of different ethnic groups, and a range of appearances essentially the same as the Pashtun. From what I can see from the named people in Zach’s chart, they are all Kashmiri Pandits as well. My understanding is many Kashmiri Pandits migrated out of Kashmir due to internal troubles post-1947, if not earlier, and thus may not be unadmixed. Given they descend from Brahmins regardless, and there is an ethnic division between Brahmins and other castes elsewhere, they may not be the most complete ethnic representation regardless.

Rimon -

To a degree, you are certainly correct. It’s established that Turkic and Mongolian invaders had a huge demographic effect in Afghanistan, for example. While this is most notable among the Turkic-speaking population and the Hazaras, it’s also the case among Tajiks and even Pashtuns to a lesser extent. In addition, some Tibetan and/or Siberian admixture certainly has happened among groups like the Pamiri, Burusho, etc.

As to your broader point, even if the populations of the region are not genetically “European,” it seems likely the genes for light coloration came from Europe. To my knowledge (and Razib’s, it seems) this hasn’t been checked yet. However, these groups don’t just show blond hair, like groups such as Melanesians and Australian Aborigines do who developed blondism independently. Instead, they show the full range of “European” coloration – hazel, green, and blue eyes, and brown, blond, and even red hair. It would be pretty unlikely that independent mutations evolved in all cases, and given the known introduction of Indo-European languages to the region, the most parsimonious answer is to assume that the fractional European ancestry won out to some degree.

Another issue, which Razib mentioned in a recent post about the Tibetans, is genes seem to flow downhill rather than uphill. Thus, while it would make sense for the lowlands to have gotten swamped by various migrations, if anything instead of “South Asians” migrating into the (other) mountain valleys, the highland ethnic groups should have migrated into the lowlands in dribs and drabs, be they lone individuals seeking adventure in the wider world, or whole villages trying to move into empty land. Looking at places like the Caucuses, New Guinea, or more recently the Andes shows how resistant highlands are to cultural and demographic change.

More generally -

You both seem to be misinterpreting my final point, which was actually that random drift may be very unlikely provided the different light-skinned groups have different historical antecedents (as opposed to a common origin).

Let’s say, hypothetically speaking, around 20% of the initial post Indo-Iranian population of the region was of “North European” ancestry. This doesn’t seem unlikely if you look at the admixture results from Deinekes for the populations in the region, and exclude the East Asian/Siberian ancestry as probable recent intrusion. While math isn’t my strong point by any means, I know enough about how drift works to say that if you stuffed ten isolated mountain valleys with this population mix, you shouldn’t expect two (e.g., 20%) to end up looking North European. While random drift can happen in any direction, the more marginal an allele is in a small population, the less likely it can stage a major resurgence. You’d either need much higher levels of North European (at least until the population stabilized and could allow for later trickles of South Asian into the mix), or you’d need some form of active selection.

There are lots of examples of rare phenotypes – like polydactyly among some Basque families – that get conserved in isolated areas. However, expecting strong drift towards one phenotypical norm among multiple populations in a comparably small area just seems odd. Particularly because the traits seem to have come together as one package, when clearly, for example, darker-skinned people can have blue or green eyes. Indeed, in India, this is pretty much the only form of light coloration that you see outside of Kashmir.

I’m not saying I have an answer here. Honestly, I’m not sure why environmental selection would favor blondism and the like in the mountains. We still don’t have a good explanation of why these traits became predominant in Europe after all. Overall levels of solar radiation are pretty much the same as the surrounding lowlands, although some of the valleys are quite rainy and overcast, which might make light skin less of a disadvantage than it would be in an arid climate with lots of sun. In addition, while there is plenty of sun in the winter, the harsh climate might mean people traditionally spent a lot of time indoors in the winter, when crops could not be grown, meaning less effective solar radiation.

I would guess, however, that if any active selection was taking place it would be sexual. Presuming the original Indo-Aryan ruling class was at least partly of European ancestry, it would be easy to see how a lighter complexion could be favored – particularly because it is anyway in much of India.

Apologies for the length of this reply. I’ll try to keep the shorter in the future.

theoretically karl’s model is not crazy. the kalash have been extremely subject to drift. far more than a normal population. this could result in high frequencies for alleles which express in a recessive fashion.

just a minor note, i assume you aren’t saying that light skin is recessive? it isn’t. second, i guess the most likely scenario for this is if the alleles were genetically distinct from european ones. to my knowledge they are not. i’d check: http://hgdp.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/gbrowse/HGDP/

Is it not possible that in the far distant past people in the region of afghanistan/pakistan/central asia were mostly fair in coloring (a “european” phenotype, though they were not genetically European) and through centuries of mixing with their neighbors who moved from areas of darker phenotypes (today’s Iran, India, China, etc) they picked up some darker coloring, although with pockets of the lighter phenotype remaining in isolated areas like the mountains of Chitral region, etc, and with many more people in the region as a whole expressing recessive traits for blue or green eyes and light skin than you find in Southern India, for example. This scenario seems far more likely to me than what Karl is saying about these small populations developing lighter complexions through drift. and also it means that it is not such a surprise that the kalash and burusho are genetically similar to their neighbors.
Karl might want to take a look at the pictures on http://pastmist.wordpress.com/ to see the range of lighter phenotypes in the region.

reich et al. had kashmiris.

The populations I’d expect to be possible relations of the Kalash, based upon some combination of linguistics, somewhat similar appearance, or location relatively nearby, would be: Other Dardic populations (Kasmiri is the best known, but there are ten other languages besides it and Kalasha), Pashtuns from various areas due to the heterogeneity of the group, Pamiri “Tajiks” and the Nuristani.

Speaking of the Nuristani, a close connection shouldn’t be assumed – they are widely taken to be Kalash who were forcibly converted to Islam a little over 100 years ago. However, the five extant Nuristani languages are not closely related to Kalasha at all, being a totally separate branch of Indo-Iranian. The two groups are adjacent however, and certainly look more alike than either does to their neighbors. It may be that the Kalasha picked up a Dardic language from their Khowar neighbors within recent centuries. On the other hand, the two groups may not be much more closely related than the Kalash are to the Burusho. IIRC, the legends of Macedonian ancestry actually came from the Nuristani, so although unlikely, it really hasn’t been disproven yet, since to my knowledge no one has analyzed Nuristani DNA (please prove me wrong).

Which brings up another interesting point. We’re looking at at least three groups which all developed lighter complexions than the norm in the region. There may, in fact, be even more, considering there are dozens of groups in mountain valleys stretching from the Pamirs to Kashmir, and it’s all but impossible to find good pictures for most of those groups online. It is easy, given there was probably some fractional European ancestry which came into the region with the Aryan migrations, to see how random drift could cause one population to develop a lighter complexion. But if the different groups are not closely related, despite relatively close proximity, random drift seems less likely compared to some form of active selection, be it environmental or sexual.

One question (maybe it’s better in the other thread) is besides coloration, is there anything about the appearance of the Kalash which sets them apart from their neighbors? Not to get on a riff from the other week, but if you came up with a facial composite of the average Kalash man or woman, and compared it to, say Khowar-speaking Chitralis, or Kasmiris, would they look virtually identical beside skin tone, hair color, and eye color?

what do you think i hope for? i’m just falsifying the contention that the kalash are europeanish. does it not show that? (unlike the burusho we know that the kalash don’t have east eurasian)

wouldn’t they cluster not with closely-related European populations, but around the Burusho, who show a similar level of East Eurasian admixture?

not burusho. probably somewhat further along the tree than turks. the “ASI” are closer to east asians, so that pulls all south asians in that direction.