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	<title>Comments on: Pygmies: &quot;old&quot; populations, and a new &quot;look&quot; (?)</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/04/pygmies-old-populations-and-a-new-look/</link>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/04/pygmies-old-populations-and-a-new-look/#comment-42370</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 01:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=16545#comment-42370</guid>
		<description>I tried searching MacArthur&#039;s blog for the McCloskey incident but came up short. Of course there are comments at the old gnxp site inaccessible nowadays.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tried searching MacArthur&#8217;s blog for the McCloskey incident but came up short. Of course there are comments at the old gnxp site inaccessible nowadays.</p>
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		<title>By: Daninthai</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/04/pygmies-old-populations-and-a-new-look/#comment-42369</link>
		<dc:creator>Daninthai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2012 11:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=16545#comment-42369</guid>
		<description>Is there any record of these African Pygmies growing up (no pun intended) in Europe or the USA (i.e. developed country), where they&#039;ve had access to nutrition and medicine, and either keeping the small stature or having a increase compared to their kin in Africa?
My Google search keeps linking me to pygmy pets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there any record of these African Pygmies growing up (no pun intended) in Europe or the USA (i.e. developed country), where they&#8217;ve had access to nutrition and medicine, and either keeping the small stature or having a increase compared to their kin in Africa?<br />
My Google search keeps linking me to pygmy pets.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian O'Dea</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/04/pygmies-old-populations-and-a-new-look/#comment-42368</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian O'Dea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2012 02:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=16545#comment-42368</guid>
		<description>I hope Razib will not object if I note that some of the issues raised here in comments have already been traversed here:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/asian-negritos-are-not-one-population/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope Razib will not object if I note that some of the issues raised here in comments have already been traversed here:</p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/asian-negritos-are-not-one-population/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/asian-negritos-are-not-one-population/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Audacious Epigone</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/04/pygmies-old-populations-and-a-new-look/#comment-42367</link>
		<dc:creator>Audacious Epigone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2012 00:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=16545#comment-42367</guid>
		<description>LOL at the addendum. Please don&#039;t ban me for making such a frivolous comment, but that really did make me laugh out loud.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL at the addendum. Please don&#8217;t ban me for making such a frivolous comment, but that really did make me laugh out loud.</p>
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		<title>By: Maju</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/04/pygmies-old-populations-and-a-new-look/#comment-42366</link>
		<dc:creator>Maju</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:48:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=16545#comment-42366</guid>
		<description>#4 @Miguel Madeira: I have seen Mayas before in film and real life and they were not so extremely small, just somewhat short. Also I&#039;m familiar with short size because of malnutrition: for example Galicians were decades ago the shortest population of Iberia by far and now the younger generations are the tallest ones. But short Galicians were never that much short: they were (still are the older generation, often) short but not Pygmy.

There seem to be some Mayas who have some Pygmy-like genetics. I can&#039;t say much more but it&#039;s something more than just malnutrition and stress. Height have both environmental and genetic components: Japanese did not grow Nordic-like in size with development and improved nutrition: genetic elements also matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#4 @Miguel Madeira: I have seen Mayas before in film and real life and they were not so extremely small, just somewhat short. Also I&#8217;m familiar with short size because of malnutrition: for example Galicians were decades ago the shortest population of Iberia by far and now the younger generations are the tallest ones. But short Galicians were never that much short: they were (still are the older generation, often) short but not Pygmy.</p>
<p>There seem to be some Mayas who have some Pygmy-like genetics. I can&#8217;t say much more but it&#8217;s something more than just malnutrition and stress. Height have both environmental and genetic components: Japanese did not grow Nordic-like in size with development and improved nutrition: genetic elements also matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda S</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/04/pygmies-old-populations-and-a-new-look/#comment-42365</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=16545#comment-42365</guid>
		<description>Australia also had some populations of short people living in the tropical rainforest nears Cairns. This is an article about them.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sydneyline.com/Pygmies%20Extinction.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.sydneyline.com/Pygmies%20Extinction.htm&lt;/a&gt;

This is an article about their rather taller modern descendents.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/aboriginal-australia/the-short-mob-goes-back-a-long-way/story-e6frgd9f-1225987410521&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/aboriginal-australia/the-short-mob-goes-back-a-long-way/story-e6frgd9f-1225987410521&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Australia also had some populations of short people living in the tropical rainforest nears Cairns. This is an article about them.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sydneyline.com/Pygmies%20Extinction.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.sydneyline.com/Pygmies%20Extinction.htm</a></p>
<p>This is an article about their rather taller modern descendents.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/aboriginal-australia/the-short-mob-goes-back-a-long-way/story-e6frgd9f-1225987410521" rel="nofollow">http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/aboriginal-australia/the-short-mob-goes-back-a-long-way/story-e6frgd9f-1225987410521</a></p>
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		<title>By: Karl Zimmerman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/04/pygmies-old-populations-and-a-new-look/#comment-42364</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Zimmerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=16545#comment-42364</guid>
		<description>Aren&#039;t there historic accounts of pygmies? IIRC, Rome seemed to have a vague knowledge that pygmy populations existed somewhere far upriver in the Nile Valley (admittedly, this may be one of the few cases of a legend that happened to be right by accident). Still, this seems to suggest their short height is at least 2,000 years old, meaning (assuming it was post-agricultural stress) you&#039;d be looking at only around 1,000 years for the diminutive stature to develop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aren&#8217;t there historic accounts of pygmies? IIRC, Rome seemed to have a vague knowledge that pygmy populations existed somewhere far upriver in the Nile Valley (admittedly, this may be one of the few cases of a legend that happened to be right by accident). Still, this seems to suggest their short height is at least 2,000 years old, meaning (assuming it was post-agricultural stress) you&#8217;d be looking at only around 1,000 years for the diminutive stature to develop.</p>
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		<title>By: Miguel Madeira</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/04/pygmies-old-populations-and-a-new-look/#comment-42363</link>
		<dc:creator>Miguel Madeira</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=16545#comment-42363</guid>
		<description>About the Andamaneses (not necessarly the Sentineleses), Sir Arthur Conan Doyle apparently was convinced that they were pygmies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2IhVpjYUSI#t=58m30s</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About the Andamaneses (not necessarly the Sentineleses), Sir Arthur Conan Doyle apparently was convinced that they were pygmies:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2IhVpjYUSI#t=58m30s" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2IhVpjYUSI#t=58m30s</a></p>
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		<title>By: Miguel Madeira</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/04/pygmies-old-populations-and-a-new-look/#comment-42362</link>
		<dc:creator>Miguel Madeira</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=16545#comment-42362</guid>
		<description>&quot;There are some Maya tribes who are Pygmy-sized. I helped to interview some of them years ago for a community radio (they were touring Europe explaining their problems in Guatemala or Mexico can’t recall) and their stature, who nobody had mentioned beforehand, truly surprised me (Pygmy sized, just like that picture above: their heads were below my shoulders like those of rather young children but were fully grown adults).&quot;

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/04/05/040405fa_fact?currentPage=5


«In the early nineteen-seventies, when the anthropologist Barry Bogin first visited Guatemala, the country’s two main ethnic groups seemed to live on different social planes. The Ladinos, who claimed primarily Spanish ancestry, were of average height. The Maya Indians were so short that some scholars called them the pygmies of Central America: the men averaged only five feet two, the women four feet eight. The Ladinos and the Maya shared the same small country, so their differences were assumed to be genetic.
But when Bogin, who now teaches at the University of Michigan, began taking measurements he soon found another cause. “There was an undeclared war going on,” he says. The Ladinos, who controlled the government, had systematically forced the Maya into poverty. Whether they lived in the city or in the countryside, the Maya had less food and medicine, and they had much higher rates of disease.

A decade and a half later, after civil war had erupted and up to a million Guatemalans had fled to the United States, Bogin took another series of measurements. This time, his subjects were Mayan refugees, between six and twelve years old, in Florida and Los Angeles. “Lo and behold, they were much taller than the Maya in Guatemala,” Bogin says. By 2000, the American Maya were four inches taller than Guatemalan Maya of the same age, and about as tall as Guatemalan Ladinos. “As far as I know, it’s the biggest increase of its kind ever measured,” Bogin says. “It shows that they weren’t genetically small. They weren’t pygmies. They were suffering.”»</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There are some Maya tribes who are Pygmy-sized. I helped to interview some of them years ago for a community radio (they were touring Europe explaining their problems in Guatemala or Mexico can’t recall) and their stature, who nobody had mentioned beforehand, truly surprised me (Pygmy sized, just like that picture above: their heads were below my shoulders like those of rather young children but were fully grown adults).&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/04/05/040405fa_fact?currentPage=5" rel="nofollow">http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/04/05/040405fa_fact?currentPage=5</a></p>
<p>«In the early nineteen-seventies, when the anthropologist Barry Bogin first visited Guatemala, the country’s two main ethnic groups seemed to live on different social planes. The Ladinos, who claimed primarily Spanish ancestry, were of average height. The Maya Indians were so short that some scholars called them the pygmies of Central America: the men averaged only five feet two, the women four feet eight. The Ladinos and the Maya shared the same small country, so their differences were assumed to be genetic.<br />
But when Bogin, who now teaches at the University of Michigan, began taking measurements he soon found another cause. “There was an undeclared war going on,” he says. The Ladinos, who controlled the government, had systematically forced the Maya into poverty. Whether they lived in the city or in the countryside, the Maya had less food and medicine, and they had much higher rates of disease.</p>
<p>A decade and a half later, after civil war had erupted and up to a million Guatemalans had fled to the United States, Bogin took another series of measurements. This time, his subjects were Mayan refugees, between six and twelve years old, in Florida and Los Angeles. “Lo and behold, they were much taller than the Maya in Guatemala,” Bogin says. By 2000, the American Maya were four inches taller than Guatemalan Maya of the same age, and about as tall as Guatemalan Ladinos. “As far as I know, it’s the biggest increase of its kind ever measured,” Bogin says. “It shows that they weren’t genetically small. They weren’t pygmies. They were suffering.”»</p>
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		<title>By: Julian O'Dea</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/04/pygmies-old-populations-and-a-new-look/#comment-42361</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian O'Dea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=16545#comment-42361</guid>
		<description>People want to explain the distinctive body size of Negritos and Pygmies on the basis of all sorts of things. Lack of food, generalised stress, short life span, heat stress. But the only thing which is unique to the rainforest is shortage of UV light. That is what I focussed on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People want to explain the distinctive body size of Negritos and Pygmies on the basis of all sorts of things. Lack of food, generalised stress, short life span, heat stress. But the only thing which is unique to the rainforest is shortage of UV light. That is what I focussed on.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian O'Dea</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/04/pygmies-old-populations-and-a-new-look/#comment-42360</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian O'Dea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:14:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=16545#comment-42360</guid>
		<description>To put my cards on the table, it seems pretty clear to me that dark-skinned people who take to living in rainforest end up with short stature. It is a local adaptation to a particular environment.

I gave my ideas on the physiology behind the low stature of Pygmies and Negritos in a paper cited here, together with some data on UV light levels in the rainforest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_peoples

It is important to note that living in a rainforest is a very different proposition if you are an agriculturalist to being a hunter-gatherer. Only the latter actually live under the rainforest canopy and are subjected to low UV levels. Also, it is the combination of living under the canopy as hunters and having dark skin which produces low stature.

Wikipedia seems to think that the Sentinelese are Negritos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To put my cards on the table, it seems pretty clear to me that dark-skinned people who take to living in rainforest end up with short stature. It is a local adaptation to a particular environment.</p>
<p>I gave my ideas on the physiology behind the low stature of Pygmies and Negritos in a paper cited here, together with some data on UV light levels in the rainforest:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_peoples" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_peoples</a></p>
<p>It is important to note that living in a rainforest is a very different proposition if you are an agriculturalist to being a hunter-gatherer. Only the latter actually live under the rainforest canopy and are subjected to low UV levels. Also, it is the combination of living under the canopy as hunters and having dark skin which produces low stature.</p>
<p>Wikipedia seems to think that the Sentinelese are Negritos.</p>
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		<title>By: Maju</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/04/pygmies-old-populations-and-a-new-look/#comment-42359</link>
		<dc:creator>Maju</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 08:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=16545#comment-42359</guid>
		<description>&quot;To my knowledge the Indians of the Amazon are not the size of Pygmies&quot;.

There are some Maya tribes who are Pygmy-sized. I helped to interview some of them years ago for a community radio (they were touring Europe explaining their problems in Guatemala or Mexico can&#039;t recall) and their stature, who nobody had mentioned beforehand, truly surprised me (Pygmy sized, just like that picture above: their heads were below my shoulders like those of rather young children but were fully grown adults). We usually say just &quot;Mayas&quot; but they are a very complex network of tribes and languages, possibly not even mutually intelligible, and I do not know the peculiarities well enough to explain.

I imagine that for some reason this particular tribe (maybe more ancient than others in the jungle?) re-evolved this short stature. Or maybe retained the relevant genetics? Both?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;To my knowledge the Indians of the Amazon are not the size of Pygmies&#8221;.</p>
<p>There are some Maya tribes who are Pygmy-sized. I helped to interview some of them years ago for a community radio (they were touring Europe explaining their problems in Guatemala or Mexico can&#8217;t recall) and their stature, who nobody had mentioned beforehand, truly surprised me (Pygmy sized, just like that picture above: their heads were below my shoulders like those of rather young children but were fully grown adults). We usually say just &#8220;Mayas&#8221; but they are a very complex network of tribes and languages, possibly not even mutually intelligible, and I do not know the peculiarities well enough to explain.</p>
<p>I imagine that for some reason this particular tribe (maybe more ancient than others in the jungle?) re-evolved this short stature. Or maybe retained the relevant genetics? Both?</p>
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