Comments on: An exegesis of Robert Pollack? http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/ Sun, 19 May 2013 05:52:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Karl Zimmerman http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45099 Karl Zimmerman Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:26:47 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45099 8 - Although the history of British royalty isn't my forte, there is (assuming no extramarital dalliances) a clear lineage from William The Bastard to Prince William - just not a straight line of male patrimony, as the male line has died out multiple times in British history. 8 -

Although the history of British royalty isn’t my forte, there is (assuming no extramarital dalliances) a clear lineage from William The Bastard to Prince William – just not a straight line of male patrimony, as the male line has died out multiple times in British history.

]]> By: Moshe Rudner http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45098 Moshe Rudner Mon, 13 Aug 2012 05:37:12 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45098 <i>actually…it is more about mind than magyar</i> ...and more about Ipad than Arpad... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-04/hungary-first-to-write-a-constitution-on-ipad-lawmaker-says.html actually…it is more about mind than magyar

…and more about Ipad than Arpad…

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-04/hungary-first-to-write-a-constitution-on-ipad-lawmaker-says.html

]]> By: Razib Khan http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45097 Razib Khan Mon, 13 Aug 2012 05:16:05 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45097 <i>Would anyone ever claim that being Hungarian is more about mind than matter?</i> actually...it <i>is</i> more about mind than magyar :-) Would anyone ever claim that being Hungarian is more about mind than matter?

actually…it is more about mind than magyar :-)

]]> By: Leor http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45096 Leor Mon, 13 Aug 2012 05:11:37 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45096 What's really driving this article is all the Jewish baggage surrounding the genetics issue. We love having claims of antiquity proven, etc., but are completely freaked out by race because of the Nazis. Would anyone ever claim that being Hungarian is more about mind than matter? What’s really driving this article is all the Jewish baggage surrounding the genetics issue. We love having claims of antiquity proven, etc., but are completely freaked out by race because of the Nazis. Would anyone ever claim that being Hungarian is more about mind than matter?

]]> By: Razib Khan http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45095 Razib Khan Mon, 13 Aug 2012 04:25:22 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45095 #9, yes, it isn't a scientific article. but he's a scientist, who works at the intersection of science and non-science. his commentary on non-science has weight because he is a scientist. in this case he totally garbles the science, making his authority deceptive. i actually have run into him elsewhere, and i don't get a sense that he has a deep grasp of population/evolutionary genetics. that's fine, but he shouldn't comment on it as if he has specialist knowledge (he does not). #9, yes, it isn’t a scientific article. but he’s a scientist, who works at the intersection of science and non-science. his commentary on non-science has weight because he is a scientist. in this case he totally garbles the science, making his authority deceptive. i actually have run into him elsewhere, and i don’t get a sense that he has a deep grasp of population/evolutionary genetics. that’s fine, but he shouldn’t comment on it as if he has specialist knowledge (he does not).

]]> By: jd http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45094 jd Mon, 13 Aug 2012 04:19:53 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45094 I think you may be getting too caught up in the specific genetics and missing the point. His article is not a scientific article trying to figure out jewish genetics, it is an opinion piece in which he is trying to say people are getting too caught up in trying to define jews by their dna. one isn't a jew because all jews share a particular sequence of dna. they are jews because they are born into a common culture that has been passed down. many of them do indeed share common dna sequences, but that is not what defines them. I think you may be getting too caught up in the specific genetics and missing the point. His article is not a scientific article trying to figure out jewish genetics, it is an opinion piece in which he is trying to say people are getting too caught up in trying to define jews by their dna. one isn’t a jew because all jews share a particular sequence of dna. they are jews because they are born into a common culture that has been passed down. many of them do indeed share common dna sequences, but that is not what defines them.

]]> By: Kevin S. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45093 Kevin S. Mon, 13 Aug 2012 04:02:45 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45093 "I think part of his point there was made more succinctly by Richard Dawkins, who noted that statistically speaking, not a single gene from William the Conqueror is likely to be present in the current British royal family. " I understand the point this paragraph is trying to make, but it's a bad example. After all, the current British royal family is not William the Conquerer's family. The Normans were Scandanavians who settled in Northern France before invading England, while the current royal family is actually German. They changed their name from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor during World War I so the British king's family name wouldn't make him sound like one of the enemy. “I think part of his point there was made more succinctly by Richard Dawkins, who noted that statistically speaking, not a single gene from William the Conqueror is likely to be present in the current British royal family. ”

I understand the point this paragraph is trying to make, but it’s a bad example. After all, the current British royal family is not William the Conquerer’s family. The Normans were Scandanavians who settled in Northern France before invading England, while the current royal family is actually German. They changed their name from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor during World War I so the British king’s family name wouldn’t make him sound like one of the enemy.

]]> By: Razib Khan http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45092 Razib Khan Mon, 13 Aug 2012 03:51:26 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45092 #6, the piece was full of genetic gibberish. the final point is respectable. the 'support' was totally incomprehensible. also, it's not true that 'jewish dna' has NOT been passed down. jews the world over except for a few exceptional groups (e.g., ethiopian jews) share a surprising amount of genetic affinity. #6, the piece was full of genetic gibberish. the final point is respectable. the ‘support’ was totally incomprehensible. also, it’s not true that ‘jewish dna’ has NOT been passed down. jews the world over except for a few exceptional groups (e.g., ethiopian jews) share a surprising amount of genetic affinity.

]]> By: jd http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45091 jd Mon, 13 Aug 2012 03:33:54 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45091 What is so hard to understand? Over a few centuries, with sufficient outcrossing, it is possible to lose all trace of the dna from the original jewish pair, yet the jewish culture may be passed down intact. By original jewish pair, I mean any given jewish pair traced through the centuries, not "the" original jew of course. This is undeniably true. His point is simply that a jew is more appropriately defined by culture, not dna. What is so hard to understand? Over a few centuries, with sufficient outcrossing, it is possible to lose all trace of the dna from the original jewish pair, yet the jewish culture may be passed down intact. By original jewish pair, I mean any given jewish pair traced through the centuries, not “the” original jew of course. This is undeniably true. His point is simply that a jew is more appropriately defined by culture, not dna.

]]> By: DK http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45090 DK Mon, 13 Aug 2012 01:59:14 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45090 His web page gives a lot of hints: "Center for the Study of Science and Religion ... Center for Psychoanalytic Training and Research ... Professor for Science and Religion at Columbia University ... and at New York Theological Seminary". Maybe being busy with all this makes one unable to write clearly about very basic things. His web page gives a lot of hints: “Center for the Study of Science and Religion … Center for Psychoanalytic Training and Research … Professor for Science and Religion at Columbia University … and at New York Theological Seminary”. Maybe being busy with all this makes one unable to write clearly about very basic things.

]]> By: Moshe Rudner http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45089 Moshe Rudner Sun, 12 Aug 2012 23:33:11 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45089 " Each of us can be sure we had more than 1,000 ancestors in only the last 10 generations" How true. I descend wholly and fully from men who took wives from as-yet-undiscovered islands. Then again, they were particular to wed women born to at least nine successive generations of sibling parentage. So numerically - and phenotypically - we're kind of a mixed bag. ” Each of us can be sure we had more than 1,000 ancestors in only the last 10 generations”

How true. I descend wholly and fully from men who took wives from as-yet-undiscovered islands. Then again, they were particular to wed women born to at least nine successive generations of sibling parentage. So numerically – and phenotypically – we’re kind of a mixed bag.

]]> By: Steven Colson http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45088 Steven Colson Sun, 12 Aug 2012 22:27:26 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45088 Pollack saying ""the Jews of today, in the Diaspora or in Israel, cannot have and do not need “Jewish DNA.” They —and I am happy to be among them —still have and will continue to have the same Jewish obligation to teach their children from these texts and to say the Sh’ma to remind themselves of this obligation, even as often as twice every day"" seems trite. I am more disturbed over his assertion that "the Jews of today...cannot have....Jewish DNA." I'm of mixed heritage with plenty of "Jewish" DNA, some of which looks North African, some Arab, some Anatolian, and some Slavic. It's a complicated hybrid of DNA and I don't need to practice Judaism to embrace the idea that my mother was Jewish and that I'm half Jewish. There's nothing more to ponder. Pollack saying “”the Jews of today, in the Diaspora or in Israel, cannot have and do not need “Jewish DNA.” They —and I am happy to be among them —still have and will continue to have the same Jewish obligation to teach their children from these texts and to say the Sh’ma to remind themselves of this obligation, even as often as twice every day”" seems trite. I am more disturbed over his assertion that “the Jews of today…cannot have….Jewish DNA.” I’m of mixed heritage with plenty of “Jewish” DNA, some of which looks North African, some Arab, some Anatolian, and some Slavic. It’s a complicated hybrid of DNA and I don’t need to practice Judaism to embrace the idea that my mother was Jewish and that I’m half Jewish. There’s nothing more to ponder.

]]> By: Karl Zimmerman http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45087 Karl Zimmerman Sun, 12 Aug 2012 22:09:46 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45087 I think part of his point there was made more succinctly by Richard Dawkins, who noted that statistically speaking, not a single gene from William the Conqueror is likely to be present in the current British royal family. Looking at the article as a whole, it seems as if it's setting up a strawman - assuming that someone will tell those who are not "Jewish by blood" that they aren't "real Jews." Basically the same sort of paranoia that Native Americans in the United States have. In addition, the whole premise of his article is false because he seems to be basing his arguments on the results of mtDNA and Y-DNA studies, not autosomal DNA, in which Jews are fairly identical in terms of their admixture (at least across particular groups). I think part of his point there was made more succinctly by Richard Dawkins, who noted that statistically speaking, not a single gene from William the Conqueror is likely to be present in the current British royal family.

Looking at the article as a whole, it seems as if it’s setting up a strawman – assuming that someone will tell those who are not “Jewish by blood” that they aren’t “real Jews.” Basically the same sort of paranoia that Native Americans in the United States have.

In addition, the whole premise of his article is false because he seems to be basing his arguments on the results of mtDNA and Y-DNA studies, not autosomal DNA, in which Jews are fairly identical in terms of their admixture (at least across particular groups).

]]> By: gcochran http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/an-exegesis-of-robert-pollack/#comment-45086 gcochran Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:57:17 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=17763#comment-45086 Groucho's razor: He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot. Groucho’s razor: He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don’t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.

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