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	<title>Comments on: The feathery Neandertal</title>
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		<title>By: Sandgroper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/the-feathery-neandertal/#comment-46675</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandgroper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18381#comment-46675</guid>
		<description>Thanks JG.

What an odd thing for John to write: &quot;fire was invented&quot; - no it wasn&#039;t.

I&#039;m not really convinced by the temperature stuff - some natural bushfires in Australia get so hot that eucalyptus trees spontaneously combust. Finding nut shells, animal bones, etc on charcoal layers would seem like more convincing evidence of the controlled use of fire for cooking.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and this is a notoriously difficult thing to establish. The lack of evidence of fire use during early occupation of rock shelters and caves where it is found in abundance later is pretty compelling; but if they used fire outside, e.g. at the kill site, then finding the evidence for that would be extraordinarly difficult, particularly as no one is looking for it.

However, just taking their conclusions at face value, what has had me head scratching all along is why the apparent acceleration in the increase in brain size that is inferred roughly around 300,000 years ago. It would kind of make sense if that approximately coincided with the widespread systematic use of fire in Europe starting at about 400,000 years ago. That bend in the line is just a construction of course, you can fit different lines and put it in a lot of different places. Quoting Luke Jostins: &quot;But, there does appear to be a change in the processes driving brain evolution somewhere between 200 and 400 kya.&quot;

That&#039;s the head-scratcher.

The other question is - what qualifies as widespread and systematic, where and by whom? The complete lack of evidence (so far) in Europe before 400,000 does seem pretty compelling - but then the recurring line I keep reading in anthropological papers all the time is &quot;earlier than previously thought&quot;.

It is tempting to construct various theories and scenarios around the controlled use of fire though, given that it must have been a very big game-changer.

Incidentally, there *is* very clear evidence of the increase in frequency of bushfires in Australia after human occupation that indicates systematic/deliberate burning by humans, contrary to what those authors say about evidence for this in Europe. It is one of the things that is suspected to have contributed to the extinction of megafauna in the Australian mainland after human occupation, and then again in Tasmania when it became accessible from the mainland due to drop in sea level .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks JG.</p>
<p>What an odd thing for John to write: &#8220;fire was invented&#8221; &#8211; no it wasn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not really convinced by the temperature stuff &#8211; some natural bushfires in Australia get so hot that eucalyptus trees spontaneously combust. Finding nut shells, animal bones, etc on charcoal layers would seem like more convincing evidence of the controlled use of fire for cooking.</p>
<p>Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and this is a notoriously difficult thing to establish. The lack of evidence of fire use during early occupation of rock shelters and caves where it is found in abundance later is pretty compelling; but if they used fire outside, e.g. at the kill site, then finding the evidence for that would be extraordinarly difficult, particularly as no one is looking for it.</p>
<p>However, just taking their conclusions at face value, what has had me head scratching all along is why the apparent acceleration in the increase in brain size that is inferred roughly around 300,000 years ago. It would kind of make sense if that approximately coincided with the widespread systematic use of fire in Europe starting at about 400,000 years ago. That bend in the line is just a construction of course, you can fit different lines and put it in a lot of different places. Quoting Luke Jostins: &#8220;But, there does appear to be a change in the processes driving brain evolution somewhere between 200 and 400 kya.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the head-scratcher.</p>
<p>The other question is &#8211; what qualifies as widespread and systematic, where and by whom? The complete lack of evidence (so far) in Europe before 400,000 does seem pretty compelling &#8211; but then the recurring line I keep reading in anthropological papers all the time is &#8220;earlier than previously thought&#8221;.</p>
<p>It is tempting to construct various theories and scenarios around the controlled use of fire though, given that it must have been a very big game-changer.</p>
<p>Incidentally, there *is* very clear evidence of the increase in frequency of bushfires in Australia after human occupation that indicates systematic/deliberate burning by humans, contrary to what those authors say about evidence for this in Europe. It is one of the things that is suspected to have contributed to the extinction of megafauna in the Australian mainland after human occupation, and then again in Tasmania when it became accessible from the mainland due to drop in sea level .</p>
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		<title>By: Eurologist</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/the-feathery-neandertal/#comment-46674</link>
		<dc:creator>Eurologist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18381#comment-46674</guid>
		<description>The fact that fire use evidence increases dramatically after ~400,000 ya in Europe may also be connected to the steep drop in temperature, then (and the fact that &lt;i&gt;heidelbergensis&#039;&lt;/i&gt; brain capacity had increased to almost modern values, by then).

IIRC, there is little evidence of habitual fire use by Asian &lt;i&gt;erectus&lt;/i&gt; - but starting around ~200,000 ya there is such evidence in association with more modern (Mousterian-like) stone tool assemblages.   This could indicate immigration of &lt;i&gt;heidelbergensis&lt;/i&gt;-like people at the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that fire use evidence increases dramatically after ~400,000 ya in Europe may also be connected to the steep drop in temperature, then (and the fact that <i>heidelbergensis&#8217;</i> brain capacity had increased to almost modern values, by then).</p>
<p>IIRC, there is little evidence of habitual fire use by Asian <i>erectus</i> &#8211; but starting around ~200,000 ya there is such evidence in association with more modern (Mousterian-like) stone tool assemblages.   This could indicate immigration of <i>heidelbergensis</i>-like people at the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Giancola</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/the-feathery-neandertal/#comment-46673</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Giancola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18381#comment-46673</guid>
		<description>You might want to check this out Sandgroper.

johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/archaeology/lower/roebroeks-villa-fire-2011.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might want to check this out Sandgroper.</p>
<p>johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/archaeology/lower/roebroeks-villa-fire-2011.html</p>
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		<title>By: Ozonator aka Robert Rhodes</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/the-feathery-neandertal/#comment-46672</link>
		<dc:creator>Ozonator aka Robert Rhodes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2012 05:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18381#comment-46672</guid>
		<description>Active feather accumulation would put to rest the theory that Neandertals didn&#039;t produce art in any form.  Neandertal infrastructure in need of feathers would be minimally limited to children&#039;s toys like missiles of mud balls with a feathered tail and tools for tickling.  Feathers could be used for substrate for aquatic animals to lay eggs on for later consumption as suggested by the Aztec use of marginal regions.  However, I have yet to hear or see Neandertals making use of ecotones and more aquatic areas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Active feather accumulation would put to rest the theory that Neandertals didn&#8217;t produce art in any form.  Neandertal infrastructure in need of feathers would be minimally limited to children&#8217;s toys like missiles of mud balls with a feathered tail and tools for tickling.  Feathers could be used for substrate for aquatic animals to lay eggs on for later consumption as suggested by the Aztec use of marginal regions.  However, I have yet to hear or see Neandertals making use of ecotones and more aquatic areas.</p>
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		<title>By: Eurologist</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/the-feathery-neandertal/#comment-46671</link>
		<dc:creator>Eurologist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2012 04:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18381#comment-46671</guid>
		<description>So, add phys.org to the list of sites that report on these spears incorrectly.

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/landingpage/newsfullview-landingpage/article/geschickte-jaeger-schon-vor-300000-jahren.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%B6ningen_Spears</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, add phys.org to the list of sites that report on these spears incorrectly.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/landingpage/newsfullview-landingpage/article/geschickte-jaeger-schon-vor-300000-jahren.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/landingpage/newsfullview-landingpage/article/geschickte-jaeger-schon-vor-300000-jahren.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%B6ningen_Spears" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%B6ningen_Spears</a></p>
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		<title>By: ryan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/the-feathery-neandertal/#comment-46670</link>
		<dc:creator>ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2012 02:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18381#comment-46670</guid>
		<description>&gt;all the parallel and reticulate branches.

I like it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;all the parallel and reticulate branches.</p>
<p>I like it.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandgroper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/the-feathery-neandertal/#comment-46669</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandgroper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2012 20:31:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18381#comment-46669</guid>
		<description>While I think to mention it, Greg Laden&#039;s work on cooking of food is interesting and pretty persuasive - it&#039;s a subject he knows a lot about. It rendered a whole lot of stuff edible that was previously indigestible for humans (roots and tubers), made meat more easily digestible and therefore more nutritious, and the same with vegetables. Once ancient humans were locked into a more energetic and nutritious diet from controlling fire and cooking their food, I would imagine that would fairly quickly become an irreversible step - you raise the bar on the Malthusian limit, and you can&#039;t go back to the old limit without a lot of people dying - plus there&#039;s no incentive to go back. Bigger brains need more energy, and cooking was a way of supplying a lot more energy, instantly, once the penny dropped - and that didn&#039;t necessarily need to be recognised for what it was, because most food tastes better cooked, and cooking renders some indigestible stuff edible and digestible. So once someone discovered cooking, possibly by accident, it must have become rapidly engrained - if you discover from dropping your lump of meat into the fire makes it a lot more delicious and a lot easier to chew, why do you ever go back to not dropping it in the fire, so long as you have access to controlled fire? You don&#039;t. Cooking also gets rid of a whole load of disease because it knocks out dangerous microbes and parasites.

So if we accept there was a big input to increase in human brain size about 1 million years ago that was the catalyst for evolving behaviour, then maybe you can tag that as the start of the development of modernity. And Neanderthals had fire and cooked, for a fact, as well as modern humans - the controlled use of fire pre-dates both of them, it was used by erectus.

I don&#039;t swallow everything Greg says, but that was good sound research work.


So to me, that had to be a big step-jump advance for humans, including Neanderthals, who also cooked. The most ancient evidence for the controlled use of fire was about 1 million years ago, or possibly longer</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I think to mention it, Greg Laden&#8217;s work on cooking of food is interesting and pretty persuasive &#8211; it&#8217;s a subject he knows a lot about. It rendered a whole lot of stuff edible that was previously indigestible for humans (roots and tubers), made meat more easily digestible and therefore more nutritious, and the same with vegetables. Once ancient humans were locked into a more energetic and nutritious diet from controlling fire and cooking their food, I would imagine that would fairly quickly become an irreversible step &#8211; you raise the bar on the Malthusian limit, and you can&#8217;t go back to the old limit without a lot of people dying &#8211; plus there&#8217;s no incentive to go back. Bigger brains need more energy, and cooking was a way of supplying a lot more energy, instantly, once the penny dropped &#8211; and that didn&#8217;t necessarily need to be recognised for what it was, because most food tastes better cooked, and cooking renders some indigestible stuff edible and digestible. So once someone discovered cooking, possibly by accident, it must have become rapidly engrained &#8211; if you discover from dropping your lump of meat into the fire makes it a lot more delicious and a lot easier to chew, why do you ever go back to not dropping it in the fire, so long as you have access to controlled fire? You don&#8217;t. Cooking also gets rid of a whole load of disease because it knocks out dangerous microbes and parasites.</p>
<p>So if we accept there was a big input to increase in human brain size about 1 million years ago that was the catalyst for evolving behaviour, then maybe you can tag that as the start of the development of modernity. And Neanderthals had fire and cooked, for a fact, as well as modern humans &#8211; the controlled use of fire pre-dates both of them, it was used by erectus.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t swallow everything Greg says, but that was good sound research work.</p>
<p>So to me, that had to be a big step-jump advance for humans, including Neanderthals, who also cooked. The most ancient evidence for the controlled use of fire was about 1 million years ago, or possibly longer</p>
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		<title>By: Florida resident</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/the-feathery-neandertal/#comment-46668</link>
		<dc:creator>Florida resident</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18381#comment-46668</guid>
		<description>Dear Mr. Khan !

1. Standard (albeit sincerely felt) best wishes and blessings.

2. FYI (you may find it interesting):

http://phys.org/news/2012-09-skilled-hunters-years.html

Age declared: 300,000 years. I have no way to judge the credibility of the claim.

Your F.r.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Mr. Khan !</p>
<p>1. Standard (albeit sincerely felt) best wishes and blessings.</p>
<p>2. FYI (you may find it interesting):</p>
<p><a href="http://phys.org/news/2012-09-skilled-hunters-years.html" rel="nofollow">http://phys.org/news/2012-09-skilled-hunters-years.html</a></p>
<p>Age declared: 300,000 years. I have no way to judge the credibility of the claim.</p>
<p>Your F.r.</p>
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		<title>By: Eurologist</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/the-feathery-neandertal/#comment-46667</link>
		<dc:creator>Eurologist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18381#comment-46667</guid>
		<description>Eh, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%B6ningen_Spears&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Schöningen Spears&lt;/a&gt; and related finds, as well as the deduced tent-like structures and paved circle and path of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilzingsleben_%28Paleolithic_site%29&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bilzingsleben&lt;/a&gt;  have long indicated that even &lt;i&gt;heidelbergensis&lt;/i&gt; - with an average cranial capacity just below ours -  had a mental capacity probably only dreamt of by some of our own.

IIRC there is a long-known French Neanderthal site that shows some sort of a large fenced-in area with a substructure for living quarters and working areas.

On the flip side, my recollection of Neanderthal cave sites is that they were extremely messy.  As in, the entire floor is our garbage pale.

PS:  the spears were found 1994-1998 - not recently, as just wrongly reported by Science Daily and alphagalileo.org.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eh, the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%B6ningen_Spears" rel="nofollow">Schöningen Spears</a> and related finds, as well as the deduced tent-like structures and paved circle and path of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilzingsleben_%28Paleolithic_site%29" rel="nofollow">Bilzingsleben</a>  have long indicated that even <i>heidelbergensis</i> &#8211; with an average cranial capacity just below ours &#8211;  had a mental capacity probably only dreamt of by some of our own.</p>
<p>IIRC there is a long-known French Neanderthal site that shows some sort of a large fenced-in area with a substructure for living quarters and working areas.</p>
<p>On the flip side, my recollection of Neanderthal cave sites is that they were extremely messy.  As in, the entire floor is our garbage pale.</p>
<p>PS:  the spears were found 1994-1998 &#8211; not recently, as just wrongly reported by Science Daily and alphagalileo.org.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandgroper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/the-feathery-neandertal/#comment-46666</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandgroper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:25:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18381#comment-46666</guid>
		<description>Some papers on &#039;modern&#039; Neanderthal behaviour definitely did pre-date the finding of Neanderthal admixture in modern humans (e.g. the admittedly inconclusive stuff about burials), but most of the papers that I can recall (use of ochre, eagle talons, hides for clothing) post-date it.

Use of stone tools seems like a bit of a toss-up, given that chimpanzees make and use tools, but surely the earliest evidence of the controlled use of fire and cooking of food must be taken as evidence of some &#039;modern&#039; or enhanced cognitive ability. Maybe that was the irreversible step, or one of them, given that cooking made a lot more digestible nutrition available which could have unshackled brain size increase. It would more or less fit with the graph, if I look at it imaginatively.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some papers on &#8216;modern&#8217; Neanderthal behaviour definitely did pre-date the finding of Neanderthal admixture in modern humans (e.g. the admittedly inconclusive stuff about burials), but most of the papers that I can recall (use of ochre, eagle talons, hides for clothing) post-date it.</p>
<p>Use of stone tools seems like a bit of a toss-up, given that chimpanzees make and use tools, but surely the earliest evidence of the controlled use of fire and cooking of food must be taken as evidence of some &#8216;modern&#8217; or enhanced cognitive ability. Maybe that was the irreversible step, or one of them, given that cooking made a lot more digestible nutrition available which could have unshackled brain size increase. It would more or less fit with the graph, if I look at it imaginatively.</p>
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