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	<title>Comments on: You don&#8217;t need &#8220;genes&#8221; for genetics</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/</link>
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		<title>By: gillt</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47661</link>
		<dc:creator>gillt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2012 22:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47661</guid>
		<description>&quot;But an understanding of molecular biology is not necessary to infer the genetic character of the trait.&quot;

People find that trivial and besides the point because they want control over it, especially if it&#039;s disease-related and to get that you need the tyranny of behavioral genetics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But an understanding of molecular biology is not necessary to infer the genetic character of the trait.&#8221;</p>
<p>People find that trivial and besides the point because they want control over it, especially if it&#8217;s disease-related and to get that you need the tyranny of behavioral genetics.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Tyler</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47660</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:54:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47660</guid>
		<description>You don’t need DNA “genes” for genetics.  You do, however need some kind of heritable information.  Williams (1966) defined sections of these to be &quot;genes&quot;.  In that context, genetics would be seen as the science of genes and gene changes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You don’t need DNA “genes” for genetics.  You do, however need some kind of heritable information.  Williams (1966) defined sections of these to be &#8220;genes&#8221;.  In that context, genetics would be seen as the science of genes and gene changes.</p>
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		<title>By: rich lawler</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47659</link>
		<dc:creator>rich lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2012 14:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47659</guid>
		<description>@2...not to state the obvious, but we don&#039;t inherit genotypes, we inherit alleles.   Unless I&#039;m misunderstanding what you are trying to say.


And a somewhat hastily written thought:
It seems recently that there have been astounding technological advances in science, particularly genetics, as well as a better scientific awareness in lay people.  These two things seem to have combined into a sociological demand for empirical proof--that we measure and provide evidence for the latent variables we&#039;ve long assumed to exist; such variables include &quot;additive genetic variance&quot; in genetics, &quot;general factor (g) of intelligence&quot; in psychology, &quot;quality of life&quot; in economics &quot; and &quot;frailty&quot; in demography.  In some cases there is actually a technological way to measure and get at the latent variable we&#039;ve assumed to exist, for example when we find a particular genetic marker of additive effect causally associating with a phenotype, but in other cases there is not a straight forward mechanistic relationship between the latent variable and its presumed causal influence on the things we can actually measure.  For example, while we assume that &quot;g&quot; controls aspects of intelligence, describing how g does this is not something that we can empirically point to in the brain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@2&#8230;not to state the obvious, but we don&#8217;t inherit genotypes, we inherit alleles.   Unless I&#8217;m misunderstanding what you are trying to say.</p>
<p>And a somewhat hastily written thought:<br />
It seems recently that there have been astounding technological advances in science, particularly genetics, as well as a better scientific awareness in lay people.  These two things seem to have combined into a sociological demand for empirical proof&#8211;that we measure and provide evidence for the latent variables we&#8217;ve long assumed to exist; such variables include &#8220;additive genetic variance&#8221; in genetics, &#8220;general factor (g) of intelligence&#8221; in psychology, &#8220;quality of life&#8221; in economics &#8221; and &#8220;frailty&#8221; in demography.  In some cases there is actually a technological way to measure and get at the latent variable we&#8217;ve assumed to exist, for example when we find a particular genetic marker of additive effect causally associating with a phenotype, but in other cases there is not a straight forward mechanistic relationship between the latent variable and its presumed causal influence on the things we can actually measure.  For example, while we assume that &#8220;g&#8221; controls aspects of intelligence, describing how g does this is not something that we can empirically point to in the brain.</p>
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		<title>By: Merm</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47658</link>
		<dc:creator>Merm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47658</guid>
		<description>Post #999 about heritability. Can you just show me a diagram instead?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Post #999 about heritability. Can you just show me a diagram instead?</p>
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		<title>By: Dm</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47657</link>
		<dc:creator>Dm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 19:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47657</guid>
		<description>It wouldn&#039;t be the first time when genetic &quot;overpromises and underdelivers&quot; and the people&#039;s response is to call genetics a fraud. I guess most people consider themselves to be Great Experts in the fields of breeding and heredity, and freely rely on their own intuition and beliefs (perhaps we evolved that way, with some sort of innate heritability compass which, alas, isn&#039;t tuned quite right). 

Some well-intentioned - but lacking good scientific data and/or extremely willing to substitute superstitions of class and race for proof - souls practiced eugenics, and tainted the idea (probably) forever.

Others promised a rapid agrigenetic revolution in the former Soviet Union, delivered next to nothing, and ended up in jails, with the whole enterprise of genetics condemned and substituted by neo-Lamarckism for over 20 years.

And more recently, underpowered candidate gene studies, shooting for SNPs associated with multiple IQ poin effects, yielded &quot;statistically signifcant&quot; flukes thanks to liberally applied multitesting, and now Chabris tries to salvage the tainted reputation of IQ genetics, but my guess is that the field will remain tainted for some time to come.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It wouldn&#8217;t be the first time when genetic &#8220;overpromises and underdelivers&#8221; and the people&#8217;s response is to call genetics a fraud. I guess most people consider themselves to be Great Experts in the fields of breeding and heredity, and freely rely on their own intuition and beliefs (perhaps we evolved that way, with some sort of innate heritability compass which, alas, isn&#8217;t tuned quite right). </p>
<p>Some well-intentioned &#8211; but lacking good scientific data and/or extremely willing to substitute superstitions of class and race for proof &#8211; souls practiced eugenics, and tainted the idea (probably) forever.</p>
<p>Others promised a rapid agrigenetic revolution in the former Soviet Union, delivered next to nothing, and ended up in jails, with the whole enterprise of genetics condemned and substituted by neo-Lamarckism for over 20 years.</p>
<p>And more recently, underpowered candidate gene studies, shooting for SNPs associated with multiple IQ poin effects, yielded &#8220;statistically signifcant&#8221; flukes thanks to liberally applied multitesting, and now Chabris tries to salvage the tainted reputation of IQ genetics, but my guess is that the field will remain tainted for some time to come.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47656</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 18:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47656</guid>
		<description>#11 &amp; #10, you&#039;ve inferred correctly a lot of the concerns (they were citing chabris&#039; paper as refutation of heritability). that being said, they seemed surprised that height has the same issues, since height obviously is heritable. so there was a broader confusion about what heritability is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#11 &amp; #10, you&#8217;ve inferred correctly a lot of the concerns (they were citing chabris&#8217; paper as refutation of heritability). that being said, they seemed surprised that height has the same issues, since height obviously is heritable. so there was a broader confusion about what heritability is.</p>
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		<title>By: Dm</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47655</link>
		<dc:creator>Dm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 18:36:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47655</guid>
		<description>#7 It isn&#039;t uncommon for people to think that, once you estabished heritability of a trait (typically by a study of twins) but couldn&#039;t find a &lt;B&gt;mechanism&lt;/B&gt; of heritability, then you are just reaffirming old wives tales. Like everybody knew that the twins are alike, and that children resemble parents, and at a first glance, it doesn&#039;t look like your study has achieved anything new.

What happens afterwards (after your corresponded has already mentally equated a heritability study with the old wives tales) sort of depends on what one thinks about this specific &quot;old wives&#039; tale&quot;.  If the old belief contradicts with this person&#039;s body of beliefs, then woe to genetics, it must be as stupid and as wrong as the &quot;old wives&quot;. I venture to guess that your software engineer corresponded was concerned about some mental ability or societal success trait ... areas where we&#039;ve been acculturated to believe in equal abilities / 100% power of nurture, and to reject the traditional, discriminatory crackpot lore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#7 It isn&#8217;t uncommon for people to think that, once you estabished heritability of a trait (typically by a study of twins) but couldn&#8217;t find a <b>mechanism</b> of heritability, then you are just reaffirming old wives tales. Like everybody knew that the twins are alike, and that children resemble parents, and at a first glance, it doesn&#8217;t look like your study has achieved anything new.</p>
<p>What happens afterwards (after your corresponded has already mentally equated a heritability study with the old wives tales) sort of depends on what one thinks about this specific &#8220;old wives&#8217; tale&#8221;.  If the old belief contradicts with this person&#8217;s body of beliefs, then woe to genetics, it must be as stupid and as wrong as the &#8220;old wives&#8221;. I venture to guess that your software engineer corresponded was concerned about some mental ability or societal success trait &#8230; areas where we&#8217;ve been acculturated to believe in equal abilities / 100% power of nurture, and to reject the traditional, discriminatory crackpot lore.</p>
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		<title>By: gcochran</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47654</link>
		<dc:creator>gcochran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 16:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47654</guid>
		<description>This happens more when people don&#039;t like the answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This happens more when people don&#8217;t like the answer.</p>
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		<title>By: nooffensebut</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47653</link>
		<dc:creator>nooffensebut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 16:07:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47653</guid>
		<description>“It is clear that many behavioral and cognitive traits have a heritable component, but the public is always hungry for the ‘X gene.’”

And, yet, when scientists do discover an allele of profound impact on an important behavior, though it be rare in all but black people, four years can go by before it receives &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886912004047&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;meaningful attention&lt;/a&gt; again (after some &lt;a href=&quot;http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2011/09/pulling-empty-chair-on-dr-kevin-beaver.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;direct persuasion&lt;/a&gt; from yours truly).  Therefore, I would say that the &lt;a href=&quot;http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2012/07/just-say-no-limit-trayvon.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;GWAS jihadists&lt;/a&gt; have had a rather successful campaign to silence candidate gene research.  What little research this allele has received was through low-cost data mining of an existing database, but I would expect that to change now that MAOA is also a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22906985&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;cancer gene&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“It is clear that many behavioral and cognitive traits have a heritable component, but the public is always hungry for the ‘X gene.’”</p>
<p>And, yet, when scientists do discover an allele of profound impact on an important behavior, though it be rare in all but black people, four years can go by before it receives <a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886912004047" rel="nofollow">meaningful attention</a> again (after some <a href="http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2011/09/pulling-empty-chair-on-dr-kevin-beaver.html" rel="nofollow">direct persuasion</a> from yours truly).  Therefore, I would say that the <a href="http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2012/07/just-say-no-limit-trayvon.html" rel="nofollow">GWAS jihadists</a> have had a rather successful campaign to silence candidate gene research.  What little research this allele has received was through low-cost data mining of an existing database, but I would expect that to change now that MAOA is also a <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22906985" rel="nofollow">cancer gene</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47652</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47652</guid>
		<description>I blame the media, but I am Conservative so that is nothing new....but seriously, when the news reports always talk of &quot;the gene for...&quot; it sends a wrong message.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I blame the media, but I am Conservative so that is nothing new&#8230;.but seriously, when the news reports always talk of &#8220;the gene for&#8230;&#8221; it sends a wrong message.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47651</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47651</guid>
		<description>e.g., the post was triggered by a long, though productive, exchange with a computer science person why falsification of candidate gene studies DO NOT imply that a trait is not heritable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>e.g., the post was triggered by a long, though productive, exchange with a computer science person why falsification of candidate gene studies DO NOT imply that a trait is not heritable.</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47650</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:22:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47650</guid>
		<description>#4, this is not the right model for very many educated people who are not biologists. i can give you plenty of concrete examples, as i have to explain this shit to people constantly who think if there ain&#039;t a SNP it ain&#039;t heritable. in some ways it is easier to explain to less educated people because you only have to explain the discrete part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#4, this is not the right model for very many educated people who are not biologists. i can give you plenty of concrete examples, as i have to explain this shit to people constantly who think if there ain&#8217;t a SNP it ain&#8217;t heritable. in some ways it is easier to explain to less educated people because you only have to explain the discrete part.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47649</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47649</guid>
		<description>Its hard enough explaining genetics to people....now throw in epigenetics ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its hard enough explaining genetics to people&#8230;.now throw in epigenetics <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Dm</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47648</link>
		<dc:creator>Dm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47648</guid>
		<description>People &quot;want a specific gene &lt;I&gt;before&lt;/I&gt; they accepts that a trait is heritable&quot;? 

I think they actually want a specific gene before they accept that the geneticists have anything non-trivial to say about a trait. They actually knew all along that like anestors, like progeny; and a nearly-continuous, sort of low-penetrance polygenic model of inheritance is very intuitive. People are very much at ease with terms such as &quot;1/8th of one&#039;s great grandfather&#039;s blood&quot; etc.

One of the biggest surprises of genetics comes when it turns out the inheritance is actually highly discrete, all or none; or when it follows along intuitively unexpected lines, like X-linkage or even something as simple as heritability of male traits through mothers or female traits through fathers. Now that doesn&#039;t resemble simple &quot;serial dilution of blood&quot;, and the listeners are like, aha, now the geneticists have something to tell us what we didn&#039;t already know!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People &#8220;want a specific gene <i>before</i> they accepts that a trait is heritable&#8221;? </p>
<p>I think they actually want a specific gene before they accept that the geneticists have anything non-trivial to say about a trait. They actually knew all along that like anestors, like progeny; and a nearly-continuous, sort of low-penetrance polygenic model of inheritance is very intuitive. People are very much at ease with terms such as &#8220;1/8th of one&#8217;s great grandfather&#8217;s blood&#8221; etc.</p>
<p>One of the biggest surprises of genetics comes when it turns out the inheritance is actually highly discrete, all or none; or when it follows along intuitively unexpected lines, like X-linkage or even something as simple as heritability of male traits through mothers or female traits through fathers. Now that doesn&#8217;t resemble simple &#8220;serial dilution of blood&#8221;, and the listeners are like, aha, now the geneticists have something to tell us what we didn&#8217;t already know!</p>
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		<title>By: Razib Khan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47647</link>
		<dc:creator>Razib Khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47647</guid>
		<description>#2, true, but trivial. do you think discussing a genotype of 5,000 loci with 15,000 allelic variants with minor allele frequency thresholds of 0.05 or more is intelligible to most people? there&#039;s a reason that a domain of genetics uses quantitative statistical methods rather than verbal logic and concepts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#2, true, but trivial. do you think discussing a genotype of 5,000 loci with 15,000 allelic variants with minor allele frequency thresholds of 0.05 or more is intelligible to most people? there&#8217;s a reason that a domain of genetics uses quantitative statistical methods rather than verbal logic and concepts.</p>
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		<title>By: jose</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47646</link>
		<dc:creator>jose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47646</guid>
		<description>Wouldn&#039;t genotype be a better word to talk about heritable traits? If a gene is a concrete, physical thing, it&#039;s only logical people want to know what genes are being talked about. If you talk about the genotype for this or that trait, however, you&#039;re abstracting the specific genetic makeup for it and focusing on its inheritance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t genotype be a better word to talk about heritable traits? If a gene is a concrete, physical thing, it&#8217;s only logical people want to know what genes are being talked about. If you talk about the genotype for this or that trait, however, you&#8217;re abstracting the specific genetic makeup for it and focusing on its inheritance.</p>
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		<title>By: AG</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/10/you-dont-need-genes-for-genetics/#comment-47645</link>
		<dc:creator>AG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:53:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=18713#comment-47645</guid>
		<description>My simple deduction: Only 4 DNA codes A, C, G, T -&gt; many codons  -&gt; even more genes -&gt;much much more exression through different conbination and interaction of genes -&gt; ? -&gt; numerous phenotypic presentations including species.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My simple deduction: Only 4 DNA codes A, C, G, T -&gt; many codons  -&gt; even more genes -&gt;much much more exression through different conbination and interaction of genes -&gt; ? -&gt; numerous phenotypic presentations including species.</p>
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