Chimpanzees Are NOT Pets!

By Sheril Kirshenbaum | February 18, 2009 2:02 pm

You’ve likely already seen this story all over the news:

Chimp’s owner calls vicious mauling ‘freak thing’

STAMFORD, Conn. (AP) — The owner of a 200-pound chimpanzee that viciously mauled a Stamford woman calls the incident “a freak thing,” but says her pet was not a “horrible” animal.

Sandra Herold told NBC’s “Today Show” in an interview aired Wednesday that Travis, her 14-year-old chimpanzee, was like a son to her.

Herold tried to save her friend by stabbing the chimp with a butcher knife and bludgeoning it with a shovel.

I have extremely strong emotions concerning this particular issue… in part because of my conservation biology background, but more recently, from my friendship with science writer Vanessa Woods and her husband, evolutionary anthropologist Dr. Brian Hare. The very reason they study sanctuary orphans is because often mothers have been killed so the babies can be sold to people who want them as pets. Vanessa explained the problems with this last year at her terrific blog Bonobo Handshake, reposted here:

#1 Chimpanzees are wild animals. Animals that make good PETS like dogs
and cats, have been domesticated for [thousands] of years. There has been
selection on them against agression, which is why a dog, unlike a wolf,
will not automatically tear you to pieces. Anyone who has a pet
chimpanzee for long enough will eventually no longer be able to control
them and will either get a body part bitten off or will have to use
extreme force to control them. Chimps live to be 50 years old and grow
almost as big as a human male. They have extremely powerful muscles and
are 5-10 stronger than a heavy weight boxer.

This is the size of a full grown adult next to the baby sized chimps you see in commercials and on TV

#2
Because of this aggressive temperament people who sell these animals as
pets must do so when they are adorable and harmless infants. Their
customers do not know the level of aggression these animals are capable
of or there strength.

#3: Even accredited zoos
and universities struggle to pay the expenses required to house wild
chimps humanely and safely. The vast majority of chimp owners do not
have the resources to assure the welfare of their wild pet and the
safety of their neighbors.

#4 ALL
primates potentially carry diseases deadly to humans including herpes
B, yellow fever, monkeypox, Ebola, Marburg, SIV, and tuberculosis.

#5 But
politicians in these countries point to the lack of laws in the United
States and ask why someone in North Carolina can have a pet monkey or
tiger but a Congolese or Brazilian cannot. My hope is that we will set
an example for the world for the humane treatment of wild animals -
their very survival depends upon it.

And finally and most
importantly, the pet trade is an international problem that threaten
many species with extinction. Conservationists are trying to stop this
trade in developing countries where people kill endangered wild animals
to sell as pets at home and abroad. But politicians in these countries
point to the lack of laws in the United States and ask why is it wrong
and illegal for them to have a chimpanzee as a pet, and if chimpanzees
are an endangered animal that should be conserved and protected,
wanyone in the USA can order one over the internet with a credit card?

We don’t buy and sell people any more. Since chimps and bonobos share 98.7% of our DNA, don’t they deserve the same respect?

Comments (39)

  1. Joe Shelby

    Thanks for this (many of those thoughts hit my head when I saw the interview), although I would take exception to the phrase “millions of years” regarding dog and cat domestication. More like thousands, I think.

  2. Thanks Joe. I’ll note the change above, but the message remains the same.

  3. I don’t mind if chimpanzees are kept as pets but only if, since they share 98.7% of our DNA, they are treated like children, sent to public schools, fed carb-rich sodas, allowed to play video games on the Xbox, and taken to the zoo to watch…chimps in cages.

  4. You put into words exactly my reaction to that story. Thank you.

  5. BJN

    A wolf will not “automatically tear you to pieces” and I find the credibility of everything else in the article suspect after reading such a false and unqualified statement.

    While there are good reasons a chimpanzee shouldn’t be kept as a pet, I’ll suggest that you have more to fear from your own species than from any wild species.

  6. Wild wolves don’t attack people but wolves raised in captivity frequently do (as do wolf/dog hybrids). So while they won’t automatically do so the likelihood of someone with a wolf, tiger, or other predator (and male chimps do hunt) being attacked by it is pretty high. As a perfect example Siegfried and Roy for several decades had no incidents with their tigers and then Roy was almost killed because no matter how well trained a tiger is not a domestic animal.

  7. Won’t a wolf tear you to pieces if it sees you as weaker than it?

    I know some people breed wolf/dog hybrids, and a lot of them have similar problems – they start out cute and cuddly but end up as very strong, very aggressive wild animals.

    What’s sad isn’t so much that there isn’t a law against keeping chimps as pets, it’s that there *needs* to be a law against it. What is wrong with people?

  8. jay

    Years ago my wife was involved in state licensed wildife rehab (primarily baby raccoons). Every summer several litters would pass through our house before being released.

    It’s easy to see why people would think of them as pets, when young they are pretty much like puppies but more agile and clever. The difference is, though, being solitary, they have no pack structure (unlike dogs or even wolves). When they mature, they don’t see the human as an alpha, they see the human as a competitor. that’s where the trouble starts.

    The difference in instincts between the pack and the solitary animal, a mountain lion is about the size of a large dog, but there is a huge difference between letting your rottweiller sleep by your bed and letting a mountain lion (even one raised in captivity) do so.

  9. Gerry L

    One of the problems in the US is that while wild-born chimpanzees are protected, those born in the US have few protections. Each state has its own laws about exotic pets, and some people swear by their “right” to own primates.
    Travis was, like most show biz chimps, pulled from his mother as an infant and taught to perform. By the time show biz chimps are 6 or 7, they are no longer manageable and are dumped into inappropriate settings — or else used to produce more babies to make money for their owners. It’s a business.
    I read today that Rep Earl Blumenauer is calling for federal legislation to govern transport of primates across state lines. Federal controls on the exotic pet trade would be a start protecting both communities and animals. I’ll be writing a letter to Earl tonight.

  10. Katkinkate

    The trouble/danger with taking on wild animals as pets is that: they lose their fear/respect of humans; as it matures there will be a struggle for dominance, which the human probably won’t win; they learn that humans are a source of food and can get demanding; and, as has been mentioned, they are still wild animals with their natural teeth, claws and greater strength, hunting and self-defense instincts.

  11. Militant Agnostic

    I wonder how many places there are where it is legal to own a Chimp but pit bulls are banned?

    There are so many reasons why keeping a chimp as a pet is wrong.

  12. CLM

    I saw a link to an article on Digg about another horrific chimp attack. The story starts off innocently enough. The couple had a chimp for years. Had it taken away. Went to visit the chimp. Two other chimps got loose and mauled the guy, bit off his fingers, his nose, his genitals, ripped open his face, ripped out an eye. The man survived but barely.

    I’d heard about lion and tiger attacks in domestic situations. At least they may short work of you. And it’s always some story where nothing happens for years and years. Then one day. Chomp.

    People should not be allowed to own wild animals as pets. Especially ones that can inflict brutal injuries on anyone who are in the way.

  13. Sciencefan

    I definitely agree with all of you on this.
    It’s a very sad situation all around. Laws need to be changed and enforced, and mass informative education distributed worldwide.

  14. Eileen

    Since 1975 import of primates for the pet trade has been illegal. Primates kept legally in captivity must be purchased from a USDA licensed breeder. If their home countries don’t put tough penalties on poaching the problems will not be solved. It is not only the US. IN fact thousands of primates areimported to research facilities in countries all over the world. Chimps cost upwards of $50,000. Their cost alone is highly prohibitive to the average pet owner. Only zoos and research facilities can import them from the wild… and their progeny can not be sold into the pet trade. What is needed is enforcement of current laws, not new ones that will remove the rights of responsible owners and do nothing for the animals because they won’t be enforced. Who is going to follow pet owners in their car to see if they have crossed state lines? That bill would stop ALL travel of primates across state lines. What if a current owner needs to relocate to another state? If that bill passed they would be forced to not move, find the animals another home, or give it to a sanctuary. This is removing the rights and ability of current primate owners to properly care for their pet. It is a poorly written bill. Banning the sale of primates across state lines is one thing, but ALL travel. Owners would be prisoners of their state.

    I do think legislation needs to be in place, but it needs to be fair. The well-being of the animals need to be considered. There are responsible and irresponsible people in every task one would undertake.(driving, drinking, heck horseback riding has been deadly, not mention those severely injured by paraplegia). Banning something takes away the right of those responsible as well. I don’t agree with telling people how to live their lives. This incident with a chimpanzee was unfortunate, but quite frankly dogs kill more people a year than pet exotics have combined. Should we ban all dogs as well? No, it all boils down to responsible ownership. Animals are animals and no matter what animal is owned knowledge is required before obtaining it, as well as proper confinement and husbandry to ensure the animals physical and mental health.

  15. Greg Esres

    Since chimps and bonobos share 98.7% of our DNA, don’t they deserve the same respect?

    I don’t really buy that argument. The bulk of the article is talking about how different chimps are from us, and then suddenly the author wants to say how similar?

    Regardless, I see no clear connection between percent DNA similarity and the “rightness” of keeping pets.

  16. On the other hand, Indian man suffers heartbreak over confiscation of adopted bear cub. On a different note, based on the comment above I too don’t think DNA similarity is a good reason against keeping chimpanzees as pets. There are of course other good reasons which you have cited above.

  17. Gray Falcon

    I find domestic cats pretty exotic, if you ask me. They’re like tiny little tigers! Of course, given how they act when they want to be playful (mine liked to nip and claw at me, before she learned that would only get me to leave), one has to wonder why one would keep a larger cat.

    If someone wants an unusual pet, why not fancy rats? Small, domesticated, much less likely to carry disease, plenty of good resources about care and safety, and they’re actually kind of cute. Or so I’ve heard.

  18. Metalraptor

    The Spaniards are trying to pass a law that would give the great apes the same legal status as children (i.e. no torture, human conditions, etc.). You might be interested in that.

  19. Wehaf

    Metalraptor – that idea is not uncommon; it is called Great Ape Personhood, and is promoted by Jane Goodall, among others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape_personhood

  20. Even my 6 year old can figure this out. People are so weird- don’t even talk about those odd people who buy tiger cubs and raise them,…. and shall we move on to wolves and hybrid wolves?

  21. Patient

    While chimpanzees are certainly not pet material for most (if not all) people, there is always a problem when these stories paint a very broad brush and lump in a lot of perfectly fine animals that can be kept as pets into the exotic category and legislators then take that broad brush and ban ALL these animals. This is unfair, and these type of restrictions makes it worse for people who are just keeping animals that are no danger to society and even helpful to people. Case in point, there are many paraplegics who use small capuchin monkeys as service animals and there is current legislation seeking to ban them, as well as miniature horses that are also used by the disabled. Both animals are deemed “exotic” and therefore “dangerous”.

  22. perturbed

    Michael Jackson must be counting his lucky stars about now.

  23. Matthew Platte

    Rats? Those cute little curved front teeth hurt like the dickens when lodged in your finger.

  24. Militant Agnostic

    Eileen – Chimps are far more dangerous than dogs. The reason more people are killed by dogs in the US than by exotic pets is because there many more dogs in the US than exotic pets by a ratio of more than 100:1. By your logic motorcycles are safer than cars.

    Patient – don’t monkeys that are used by disabled people have their teeth pulled so they can’t bite? I am not saying that this should not be done in this case, but having a primate as a pet is different matter.

  25. Fia

    I think there are two things that one has to keep apart:
    For one, there is the question whether law should forbid people to have exotic animals in general or chimps specifically as pets. Such a law would be, in the furthest sense, to prevent the extinction of species. Even though chimps are often bred in captivity, not all of them are. Further, if there would be such a law in the US it would be a precedence (with respect to some comments above).
    Second, one could contemplate whether it is worthwhile to forbid people to hold non-domesticated animals as pets because they are a danger to humans. This is non-specific to chimps and needs to be weighted against whether one wants people to make free choices in that respect. Maybe a law that ensures the correct ethical husbandry would then do the same trick, much alike laws in several countries for the keeping of pittbulls and the like.

  26. Thomas

    It’s perfectly possible to keep wolves as “pets”. Now, you’d better know what you are doing and live in a suitable environment, but there is a reason they were the first animal to be domesticated. The difference between a dog and a wolf is that the former will (almost never) tear you to pieces if you act stupid, to keep a wolf you need to deserve its respect. Not that it is something you should do, it can be a risk to strangers and dogs and it needs a lot of room.

  27. siva

    dogs and cats, have been domesticated for [thousands] of years. There has been selection on them against agression
    Wrong. Is Ms Woods trying to imply that if aggression is minimal and we’ve been abusing dogs and cats for thousands of years, it is somehow morally acceptable to hold mammals in captivity and to discard or terminate them unilaterally?

    paraplegics who use small capuchin monkeys as service animals
    Just because paraplegics were wronged by fate/genes, it does not make it right to enslave other sentient beings into their service. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

  28. Dave S.

    These acts are usually described as sudden and taking the owner by surprise. I think that’s partly because many owners simply don’t recognize when the chimp starts to threaten them, say by looking into their eyes, and fail to take appropriate action at that time. That leads the chimp to become more assertive, making more threatening gestures like for example standing in water as we see in the picture above. I understand chimps generally don’t like water and to stand in it is a sign of a very assertive and confident chimp indeed. If the human fails to answer that chimp challenge, then that could lead to outright physical aggression as the chimp will assume he’s in charge.

  29. Gray Falcon

    Rats? Those cute little curved front teeth hurt like the dickens when lodged in your finger.

    So can a cat’s mouthful of needles. The trick is in training. Most domesticated animals can understand causation: Biting people leads to “YELP!” and no playing.

  30. Did anyone read the murders in the rue morgue???

    Is it just me, or is this eerily familiar?

  31. Letraix

    “Since chimps and bonobos share 98.7% of our DNA, don’t they deserve the same respect?”

    Actually, no. Not a good argument. Where exactly should this DNA similarity cutoff lie? If humans evolve into something that looks and behaves human (superhuman, even) but only has 98.5% in common with normal human DNA, should they be downgraded to animals? Or should chimps be upgraded? What about 90%? How about 82.7? Should we look to domesticated animals to get a baseline? I really don’t think “percentage similarity of DNA” is a useful measure, particularly of something as subjective as “respectability”.

    Chimps are animals. Very cool, interesting and emotion-jerking animals, but I don’t see why they should enjoy more respect than a domesticated dog, a wild crocodile, or the noble pig on his final walk to sausagedom. (Feel free to argue that humans are animals too, but that is apparently the Gold Standard (pah!) being compared against here.)

    That said, no, I don’t want a chimp for my birthday, for the other rather sensible reasons listed above. You can keep your Great Danes and pitbulls too.

  32. jay

    The reason more people are killed by dogs in the US than by exotic pets is because there many more dogs in the US than exotic pets by a ratio of more than 100:1. By your logic motorcycles are safer than cars

    Don’t forget that more humans kill humans (including spouses, parents and children) than all other animals.

    What does bother me is the form that legal structures might take. Even some of the posts here seem to be basing the legal arguments on potential (determined by whom?) danger to humans and I can see this getting rapidly out of hand as lawmakers decide what is ‘dangerous’ (we see how this becomes perception driven in the ill thought out bans on breeds of dogs). Many domesticated animals can be dangerous under some circumstances, as well as many exotic wild animals that cannot (no one to my knowledge has been killed by a bog turtle).

    I don’t believe primates are suitable pets, but I’m also very concerned about the wisdom of legislators once they get rooting around the tent.

  33. Kenneth Fowler

    I fully expected to find comments on the chimpanzee tragedy, here and in the main stream media, to bridge the spectrum from “a freak accident and the owner had a perfect right to harbor the animal in her home” to “a wanton, irresponsible act and the owner is criminally liable”. Sadly, I was not disappointed. My only question is why do so many not consider it a triple tragedy? The chimpanzee was robbed of a life in its natural habitat, the victim, the target of the attack, was mauled and almost killed, and the owner, a victim herself of self-delusion and transference, even now lacks an understanding of her ethical and moral failure – the animal was treated like a favored toy or fetish; she attributed human-like behaviors to the now 200 lb. adult chimpanzee, a creature of enormous strength, a great ape, an omnivore (opportunistic meat-eater), a primate that has been shaped by Darwinian evolution and natural selection from its beginnings in the Paleogene, six million years ago, when our paths diverged, to unpredictable and violent behavior driven by a need for territorial protection, warped in unknowable ways by being removed from its own ecological niche in the tropical forest and kin-selected communities. Society failed as well by anthropomorphizing the owner’s ill-considered belief that this was her child – it was not and all in all nature was violated. I mourn for at least two of the victims.

  34. Oakspar77777

    The arguement that cats and dogs (assumably other domestics like chickens, sheep, goats, horses, mules, cows, etc) are acceptable pets because of “thousands of years of domestication.”

    If keeping domestics is acceptable, then domesticating wild creatures is as well, as that is the source of all domestics.

    Take the Chinchilla. In the wild they are so high strung and altitude sensitive that most early attempts at domestication failed. Now, only a century later, they are much calmer, more social, and come in a variety of colors and coats (the first two being far more important that the third). While they are still a rather jumpy and fragile pet, most people capable of caring for a rabbit can handle a chinchilla.

    So, with training and breeding, who is to say that Chimps won’t someday be the companion pet so many wish they already were? Unless you are a filthy neo-hippie willing to destroy/sterilize all living domestics (including agricultural/aquacultural animals) and return to a “wild animal only” earth (not a friendly place to man, by the way), then domestics are okay. If existing domestics are okay, then it follows that creating domestics from new species is okay.

    By the way, many of the early Puritan settlers took wild skunks in as pets. Very similar to housecats and never descented like today’s pet skunks are.

  35. Lactate dehydrogenase

    You really want to keep a pet? Keep a shrew. You will be endlessly entertained when you have to leave your job and keep on procuring live food for their high metabolism 24/7

  36. Thomas

    In many parts of the world escaped cats and dogs are a nuisance and threat to the local wildlife. “Exotic” pets that are local to the area may be much better.

  37. Dave

    “There has been selection on them against agression, which is why a dog, unlike a wolf, will not automatically tear you to pieces.”

    The true story of Farley Mowat’s groundbreaking research on wolves in the wilds of northern Canada has been around for years and was made into a movie in 1983… why is it that you’ve not educated yourself about the true nature of wolves… While wolves are indeed hunters, they don’t practice as you suggest in the quote above.. Watch (or read) this fascinating story that has changed the opinions about wolves’ natural behaviors of millions of people around the world…

    Your misinformation is harmful to sustainable environmental practice.

  38. Scott

    Hi Everyone,
    I hope my comments do not offend anyone but I felt I had to comment on this as I feel very deeply about this subject. It has been a dream of mine to some day to have a chimpanze, I think it is sickening that the government has banned the ownership of these exotic animals. Yes what has just happened in the news about Travis is very sad and feel for both in this situation. When you look at the bigger picture for one the Government has just taken another right away from us, and I am truly not against the government. Now if we would like to talk numbers not statistics because I am now talking about human lives. There have been in the past 40 years we have lost 2 human lives to the attaks of chimpanziees and 343 cases of bites and scratches. Yes that is tragic that is 2 human lives. Did you know that we loose 20 human lives per year to brutal attacks from our mans best friend the dog. When you try to get numbers on bites and scratches on humans from dogs there is no trace of a number that is because it is too numerous to calculate. Yes and I did say 20 HUMAN lives per year to brutal dog attacks. I am truly a dog lover as I have 5 of my own and love them like they are my children. Now take these numbers into account, We have lost 27 thousand human lives due to plane crashes from 1982-2004 how does that feel now. Realy makes you sick to your stomach. Did you also know that we loose 2,200 human lives per day to Heart Disease. Here is another in 2001 from October to December we have lost 700-1000 human lives due to car crashes. Also we have lost 12 human lives due to Astroids hitting them in the past 400 years. Now I have not even mentioned humans murdering other humans. Now I ask you why hasen’t the Government done something about all of the above deaths? I am not saying that the 2 human lives taken by chimpaziees in the past 40 years is not bad BUT why has the right to own Primates been taken away from us. I have talked to people who have them and they are like there children, as some are unable to have there own, as it has been mentioned they have 98.7% human DNA. I do belive that the Government should be able to control the Poachers that kill the parents and steel the babies. It has also been mentioned that dogs were wild animals aswell at one time but took centeries to tame them, well does anyone know how long we have been trying to tame the chimpanzee? They are alot like children and you should have all the facts about raising one! Why should the rights be taken from some or most that have never harmed a soul and lived their lives healthy and happy. Is it possible that we may be able to give them the lives that they were ment to have, Safe from Preditors that could take their lives. I truly hope this does not offend anyone but hope there is some others that have compasion and the love for all creature of gods earth.
    Thanks so much

  39. Jessica

    It is saddening to see that so many comments refer to the ‘rights’ of humans and the ‘safety’ of humans. What about those of Chimpanzees?
    I don’t doubt that Travis and Moe (his horrific story was mentioned above) were happy and loved, and that their owners gave them everything that they possibly could. But the fact remains that Chimpanzees are better off in the company of their own kind, not drinking champagne and watching TV.
    Scott, I was touched by your post and your desire to own a Chimpanzee of your own, but do you honestly believe that owning a Chimpanzee, dressing it in clothes and diapers, and feeding it junk food is “giving them the lives that they were ment to have, Safe from Preditors that could take their lives”?
    If that was the life Chimpanzees were meant to have they would have evolved to that standard by now, and would be our equals.
    I urge EVERYBODY to go the following website:
    http://www.monkeyworld.co.uk
    This non-profit wildlife park houses abused and abandoned primates. Please go online and read the stories of the rescued chimps, and see for yourself the dedication of the staff in giving these chimpanzees the best life that they can possibly have, which means natural chimp groups, limited human contact and a lifestyle mimicing the African jungle as much as possible. While a lot of chimps at the park were beaten by their previous owners and came to the centre facing drug addictions from their owners drugging them to keep them quiet, many were also given up by their well-meaning owners who realised that the life their chimpanzee was living, while loved and lavished with toys, food and attention, was unnatural and really an unfullfilled life.
    I urge everyone too, to go online and, if you haven’t already seen the documentary series that they film at the Park (‘Monkey Business’, now renamed ‘Monkey Life’) that you buy the DVDs. I watch these constantly because Chimpanzees are so similar to humans in so many ways, but so different – that it is funny and heartbreaking at the same time.
    Watch them in this documentary and you will clearly see how much happier Chimps are in a natural life.

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About Sheril Kirshenbaum

Sheril Kirshenbaum is a research scientist with the Webber Energy Group at the University of Texas at Austin's Center for International Energy and Environmental Policy where she works on projects to enhance public understanding of energy issues as they relate to food, oceans, and culture. She is involved in conservation initiatives across levels of government, working to improve communication between scientists, policymakers, and the public. Sheril is the author of The Science of Kissing, which explores one of humanity's fondest pastimes. She also co-authored Unscientific America: How Scientific Illiteracy Threatens Our Future with Chris Mooney, chosen by Library Journal as one of the Best Sci-Tech Books of 2009 and named by President Obama's science advisor John Holdren as his top recommended read. Sheril contributes to popular publications including Newsweek, The Washington Post, Discover Magazine, and The Nation, frequently covering topics that bridge science and society from climate change to genetically modified foods. Her writing is featured in the anthology The Best American Science Writing 2010. In 2006 Sheril served as a legislative Knauss science fellow on Capitol Hill with Senator Bill Nelson (D-FL) where she was involved in energy, climate, and ocean policy. She also has experience working on pop radio and her work has been published in Science, Fisheries Bulletin, Oecologia, and Issues in Science and Technology. In 2007, she helped to found Science Debate; an initiative encouraging candidates to debate science research and innovation issues on the campaign trail. Previously, Sheril was a research associate at Duke University's Nicholas School of the Environment and has served as a Fellow with the Center for Biodiversity and Conservation at the American Museum of Natural History and as a Howard Hughes Research Fellow. She has contributed reports to The Nature Conservancy and provided assistance on international protected area projects. Sheril serves as a science advisor to NPR's Science Friday and its nonprofit partner, Science Friday Initiative. She also serves on the program committee for the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS). She speaks regularly around the country to audiences at universities, federal agencies, and museums and has been a guest on such programs as The Today Show and The Daily Rundown on MSNBC. Sheril is a graduate of Tufts University and holds two masters of science degrees in marine biology and marine policy from the University of Maine. She co-hosts The Intersection on Discover blogs with Chris Mooney and has contributed to DeSmogBlog, Talking Science, Wired Science and Seed. She was born in Suffern, New York and is also a musician. Sheril lives in Austin, Texas with her husband David Lowry. Interested in booking Sheril Kirshenbaum to speak at your next event? Contact Hachette Speakers Bureau 866.376.6591 info@hachettespeakersbureau.com For more information, visit her website or email Sheril at srkirshenbaum@yahoo.com.

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