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	<title>Comments on: Climate Scientists for Better Climate Science Communication&#8211;Will it Work?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/</link>
	<description>Where science collides with life, slams into culture, crashes with politics, and gets totaled.</description>
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		<title>By: SLC</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/comment-page-1/#comment-15355</link>
		<dc:creator>SLC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/#comment-15355</guid>
		<description>Re Michael

Mr. Michael provides a perfect example of the big lie.  As the late and unlamented Josef Goebbels once stated, if one is going to tell a lie, make it a big lie, tell it loudly and tell it often and eventually people will begin to believe it.

Just for the information of interested readers, since Mr. Michael trashed the IPCC, with, of course, not a shred of evidence to back it up, lets look at some of the deniers.  The thread in the attached link describes an online petition organized by the CATO institute of scientists who deny the scientific consensus on global warming.  Aside from the fact that very few of them have expertise in the field of climatology, there are a number of nutcases on the list.  It includes HIV/AIDS deniers like one Eduardo Ferreyra, and orgone energy proponents like one Dr. James DeMeo.

Of course, the CATO petition, like the Imhofe petition proves nothing.  There are similar petitions with multi-hundred signers denying HIV/AIDS, the theory of evolution, big bang cosmology, CFCS/ozone depletion, cigarette smoking/lung cancer, etc.  

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/04/cato_copies_the_discovery_inst.php#more</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re Michael</p>
<p>Mr. Michael provides a perfect example of the big lie.  As the late and unlamented Josef Goebbels once stated, if one is going to tell a lie, make it a big lie, tell it loudly and tell it often and eventually people will begin to believe it.</p>
<p>Just for the information of interested readers, since Mr. Michael trashed the IPCC, with, of course, not a shred of evidence to back it up, lets look at some of the deniers.  The thread in the attached link describes an online petition organized by the CATO institute of scientists who deny the scientific consensus on global warming.  Aside from the fact that very few of them have expertise in the field of climatology, there are a number of nutcases on the list.  It includes HIV/AIDS deniers like one Eduardo Ferreyra, and orgone energy proponents like one Dr. James DeMeo.</p>
<p>Of course, the CATO petition, like the Imhofe petition proves nothing.  There are similar petitions with multi-hundred signers denying HIV/AIDS, the theory of evolution, big bang cosmology, CFCS/ozone depletion, cigarette smoking/lung cancer, etc.  </p>
<p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/04/cato_copies_the_discovery_inst.php#more" rel="nofollow">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/04/cato_copies_the_discovery_inst.php#more</a></p>
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		<title>By: Erasmussimo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/comment-page-1/#comment-15325</link>
		<dc:creator>Erasmussimo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/#comment-15325</guid>
		<description>Don and Michael, if you wish to convince any reasonable person, you need to do more than simply make unsubstantiated claims. Between you, here are some claims that I don&#039;t think you can substantiate:

1. &quot;These guys [the scientists in the IPCC] were chosen by their repective countries not because of climate expertise, but because of an overwhelming commitment to the concept of hunam caused global warming.&quot; Can you document the selection process to back up your claim?

2. &quot; Thousands of extremely expeienced and respected scientists are now speaking out on this politically supercharged subject, and they are totally in disagreement with the broken model used by the IPCC&quot; This certainly requires substantiation. I believe it to be incorrect.

3. &quot; The earth is cooling down. It has been cooling for over a decade now&quot;. Please present your analysis and your evidence, taking into account the thermal inertia of the earth&#039;s climate system.

4. Don presents three sources that he claims support global cooling. However, my understanding of the evidence produced by these sources is that they support AGW. Please provide the specific evidence to which you refer.

I have found that global warming deniers are long on accusations and short on substantiation. I hope that you will break this tradition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don and Michael, if you wish to convince any reasonable person, you need to do more than simply make unsubstantiated claims. Between you, here are some claims that I don&#8217;t think you can substantiate:</p>
<p>1. &#8220;These guys [the scientists in the IPCC] were chosen by their repective countries not because of climate expertise, but because of an overwhelming commitment to the concept of hunam caused global warming.&#8221; Can you document the selection process to back up your claim?</p>
<p>2. &#8221; Thousands of extremely expeienced and respected scientists are now speaking out on this politically supercharged subject, and they are totally in disagreement with the broken model used by the IPCC&#8221; This certainly requires substantiation. I believe it to be incorrect.</p>
<p>3. &#8221; The earth is cooling down. It has been cooling for over a decade now&#8221;. Please present your analysis and your evidence, taking into account the thermal inertia of the earth&#8217;s climate system.</p>
<p>4. Don presents three sources that he claims support global cooling. However, my understanding of the evidence produced by these sources is that they support AGW. Please provide the specific evidence to which you refer.</p>
<p>I have found that global warming deniers are long on accusations and short on substantiation. I hope that you will break this tradition.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Winsor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/comment-page-1/#comment-15324</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Winsor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/#comment-15324</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re writing on the wrong blog, Don. Chris Mooney addressed the &quot;cooling since 1998&quot; silliness in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/20/AR2009032002660.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;his recent Washington Post Op-ed&lt;/a&gt;.

As for the 650 climatologists, &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/environmentandenergy/archive/2008/12/15/inhofe-s-650-quot-dissenters-quot-make-that-649-648.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;that story has been debunked as a stunt&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re writing on the wrong blog, Don. Chris Mooney addressed the &#8220;cooling since 1998&#8243; silliness in <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/20/AR2009032002660.html" rel="nofollow">his recent Washington Post Op-ed</a>.</p>
<p>As for the 650 climatologists, <a href="http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/environmentandenergy/archive/2008/12/15/inhofe-s-650-quot-dissenters-quot-make-that-649-648.aspx" rel="nofollow">that story has been debunked as a stunt</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/comment-page-1/#comment-15322</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/#comment-15322</guid>
		<description>Um, JM?  In Michael&#039;s defense... some sources for global cooling since 1998 are:
1.	The UK Meteorological Office&#039;s Hadley Center for Climate Studies
2.	Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia
3.	650 of the world&#039;s top climatologists at December&#039;s U.N. Global Warming conference in Poznan, Poland
The information is not hard to find.  The real question is not whether or not a global cooling has been taking place, the question is if cooling is the short term trend or or warming was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, JM?  In Michael&#8217;s defense&#8230; some sources for global cooling since 1998 are:<br />
1.	The UK Meteorological Office&#8217;s Hadley Center for Climate Studies<br />
2.	Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia<br />
3.	650 of the world&#8217;s top climatologists at December&#8217;s U.N. Global Warming conference in Poznan, Poland<br />
The information is not hard to find.  The real question is not whether or not a global cooling has been taking place, the question is if cooling is the short term trend or or warming was.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Winsor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/comment-page-1/#comment-15321</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Winsor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/#comment-15321</guid>
		<description>If this was about grubbing for research dollars, Gavin, wouldn&#039;t they be trying to milk the uncertainty, instead of broadcasting a consensus? How many tree ring studies can Michael Mann do? If there is certainty, then it seems like his most important work is behind him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If this was about grubbing for research dollars, Gavin, wouldn&#8217;t they be trying to milk the uncertainty, instead of broadcasting a consensus? How many tree ring studies can Michael Mann do? If there is certainty, then it seems like his most important work is behind him.</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Andresen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/comment-page-1/#comment-15319</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Andresen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/#comment-15319</guid>
		<description>Wes, I think the &quot;follow the money&quot; argument cuts both ways-- after all, the bigger the climate crisis, the more research dollars for climate scientists.

I&#039;ve read lots of research papers that end with &quot;and there&#039;s still stuff we don&#039;t know, so more research is needed.&quot;  I don&#039;t think I&#039;ve EVER read a research paper that ends with &quot;we understand this pretty well, so we should find higher-priority things on which to spend money.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wes, I think the &#8220;follow the money&#8221; argument cuts both ways&#8211; after all, the bigger the climate crisis, the more research dollars for climate scientists.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read lots of research papers that end with &#8220;and there&#8217;s still stuff we don&#8217;t know, so more research is needed.&#8221;  I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve EVER read a research paper that ends with &#8220;we understand this pretty well, so we should find higher-priority things on which to spend money.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: JM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/comment-page-1/#comment-15317</link>
		<dc:creator>JM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/#comment-15317</guid>
		<description>Um, Michael? Please provide your &#039;unbiased research&#039; showing that the Earth is cooling -- we&#039;re all trembling with anticipation.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, Michael? Please provide your &#8216;unbiased research&#8217; showing that the Earth is cooling &#8212; we&#8217;re all trembling with anticipation&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Wes Rolley</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/comment-page-1/#comment-15316</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes Rolley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/#comment-15316</guid>
		<description>Well, Michael must think that Chris has enough credibility to necessitate an attack / rebuttal. Of course, the rebuttal is filled with the same dis-information as always: &lt;blockquote&gt; Thousands of extremely expeienced and respected scientists are now speaking out on this politically supercharged subject, and they are totally in disagreement with the broken model used by the IPCC, and the misleading and dangerous forcasts made to scare people into coughing up money and political influence. &lt;/blockquote&gt; 

One key reason that we are making so little headway is the fact that it is in the interests of lobbyist to delay action as long as possible.   I would agree with Erasmussimo above that we need economic analysis from someone else other than Lomborg clones. We never see the costs of doing nothing that can be avoided.  

Earth Day will be hear in a couple of weeks. What an opportunity to tell everyone that the big time lobbyists have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, that they are only seeking the funding that flows only to the smoothest liars, and that they all are willing to kill millions for the sake of a bigger deal.   It is the same ideology that brought us unregulated credit default swaps.   Just follow the money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Michael must think that Chris has enough credibility to necessitate an attack / rebuttal. Of course, the rebuttal is filled with the same dis-information as always:<br />
<blockquote> Thousands of extremely expeienced and respected scientists are now speaking out on this politically supercharged subject, and they are totally in disagreement with the broken model used by the IPCC, and the misleading and dangerous forcasts made to scare people into coughing up money and political influence. </p></blockquote>
<p>One key reason that we are making so little headway is the fact that it is in the interests of lobbyist to delay action as long as possible.   I would agree with Erasmussimo above that we need economic analysis from someone else other than Lomborg clones. We never see the costs of doing nothing that can be avoided.  </p>
<p>Earth Day will be hear in a couple of weeks. What an opportunity to tell everyone that the big time lobbyists have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, that they are only seeking the funding that flows only to the smoothest liars, and that they all are willing to kill millions for the sake of a bigger deal.   It is the same ideology that brought us unregulated credit default swaps.   Just follow the money.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Winsor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/comment-page-1/#comment-15315</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Winsor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/#comment-15315</guid>
		<description>If you don&#039;t like the IPCC for whatever reason, &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;there are dozens of other worldwide scientific organizations who say the same thing&lt;/a&gt;. The lone dissenting voice is petroleum geologists. (At first they were non-committal, and only dissented after a threatened walkout by their membership.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you don&#8217;t like the IPCC for whatever reason, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change" rel="nofollow">there are dozens of other worldwide scientific organizations who say the same thing</a>. The lone dissenting voice is petroleum geologists. (At first they were non-committal, and only dissented after a threatened walkout by their membership.)</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/comment-page-1/#comment-15313</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/07/climate-scientists-for-better-climate-science-communication-will-it-work/#comment-15313</guid>
		<description>More dangerous balderdash from the political appointees of the already discredited IPCC. These guys were chosen by their repective countries not because of climate expertise, but because of an overwhelming commitment to the concept of hunam caused global warming. Thousands of extremely expeienced and respected scientists are now speaking out on this politically supercharged subject, and they are totally in disagreement with the broken model used by the IPCC, and the misleading and dangerous forcasts made to scare people into coughing up money and political influence. I strongly suggest that people do their own diligent research on this subject before parroting the IPCC, or claiming that anyone who disagrees with human caused global warming is an ignorant &#039;denier&#039;

When a concensus becomes science fact, then all science is damaged. The earth is cooling down. It has been cooling for over a decade now, and is very likely to continue to cool for another 15-30 years at least. This is despite the horrific predictions of the political alarmists.

Folks, do your own homework. If after some unbiased research you still believe that we humans are warming up the earth, then at least you came to that conclusion by your own means, and not through a group of shrill people predicting a false doom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More dangerous balderdash from the political appointees of the already discredited IPCC. These guys were chosen by their repective countries not because of climate expertise, but because of an overwhelming commitment to the concept of hunam caused global warming. Thousands of extremely expeienced and respected scientists are now speaking out on this politically supercharged subject, and they are totally in disagreement with the broken model used by the IPCC, and the misleading and dangerous forcasts made to scare people into coughing up money and political influence. I strongly suggest that people do their own diligent research on this subject before parroting the IPCC, or claiming that anyone who disagrees with human caused global warming is an ignorant &#8216;denier&#8217;</p>
<p>When a concensus becomes science fact, then all science is damaged. The earth is cooling down. It has been cooling for over a decade now, and is very likely to continue to cool for another 15-30 years at least. This is despite the horrific predictions of the political alarmists.</p>
<p>Folks, do your own homework. If after some unbiased research you still believe that we humans are warming up the earth, then at least you came to that conclusion by your own means, and not through a group of shrill people predicting a false doom.</p>
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