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	<title>Comments on: The Economics of Ideas in the Global Warming Debate</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/</link>
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		<title>By: My Argument With Noam Chomsky &#124; The Intersection &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16167</link>
		<dc:creator>My Argument With Noam Chomsky &#124; The Intersection &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16167</guid>
		<description>[...] observed, for instance, that one highly revealing aspect of the Marc Morano problem is his comfortable salary. On our side of the climate debate, philanthropists and universities do not create counter-Moranos [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] observed, for instance, that one highly revealing aspect of the Marc Morano problem is his comfortable salary. On our side of the climate debate, philanthropists and universities do not create counter-Moranos [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Jon Winsor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16166</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Winsor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16166</guid>
		<description>A good debater or speaker who can get a point across to a wide range of audiences isn&#039;t a &quot;mindless parrot.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good debater or speaker who can get a point across to a wide range of audiences isn&#8217;t a &#8220;mindless parrot.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Phaedrus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16165</link>
		<dc:creator>Phaedrus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 14:57:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16165</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s look at your business model - you want scientist to divert some of their hardwon money away from their love, science, and put it towards advocacy (good luck with that).  Alternatively, you want some raggedy left wing advocacy groups to match dollars with the largest corporations on the planet (strike two).  Last resort, find someone with deep enough pockets and an environmental conscience to spearhead this kind of position (can you say Al Gore - how&#039;s that working out).
Listening to you guys is like watching the underpants gnomes develop their strategy.  Scientists  do science, advocacy people don&#039;t have a pot to piss in, business people have money.
The bottom line is public education.  Children need to understand good science so they grow up into responsible adults.  Science needs to be made a part of our governance.  Yelling at old people on the TV is a fools errand.
Until businesses feel the pinch of global warming (and that&#039;s where the money is) then there will be no funded advocates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s look at your business model &#8211; you want scientist to divert some of their hardwon money away from their love, science, and put it towards advocacy (good luck with that).  Alternatively, you want some raggedy left wing advocacy groups to match dollars with the largest corporations on the planet (strike two).  Last resort, find someone with deep enough pockets and an environmental conscience to spearhead this kind of position (can you say Al Gore &#8211; how&#8217;s that working out).<br />
Listening to you guys is like watching the underpants gnomes develop their strategy.  Scientists  do science, advocacy people don&#8217;t have a pot to piss in, business people have money.<br />
The bottom line is public education.  Children need to understand good science so they grow up into responsible adults.  Science needs to be made a part of our governance.  Yelling at old people on the TV is a fools errand.<br />
Until businesses feel the pinch of global warming (and that&#8217;s where the money is) then there will be no funded advocates.</p>
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		<title>By: MadScientist</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16164</link>
		<dc:creator>MadScientist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 08:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16164</guid>
		<description>Let me get this straight: we need a loud mindless parrot to get people on side?

Well, maybe you can find one in Australia; looking at this ad:

http://www.cawcr.gov.au/jobs/PCCSP.php

it is apparent that loudmouths are far more important than scientists.

It is quite a dilemma; how do you at least get the policy makers to listen when you&#039;ve got some very loud headless chickens?  We can&#039;t really pay a loudspeaker like Morano to do the talking because they&#039;ll be spreading even more untruths.

It doesn&#039;t help that newspapers enjoy printing anything &#039;controversial&#039; even if it is Dr. X vs the local garbage collector.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me get this straight: we need a loud mindless parrot to get people on side?</p>
<p>Well, maybe you can find one in Australia; looking at this ad:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cawcr.gov.au/jobs/PCCSP.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.cawcr.gov.au/jobs/PCCSP.php</a></p>
<p>it is apparent that loudmouths are far more important than scientists.</p>
<p>It is quite a dilemma; how do you at least get the policy makers to listen when you&#8217;ve got some very loud headless chickens?  We can&#8217;t really pay a loudspeaker like Morano to do the talking because they&#8217;ll be spreading even more untruths.</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t help that newspapers enjoy printing anything &#8216;controversial&#8217; even if it is Dr. X vs the local garbage collector.</p>
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		<title>By: Wes Rolley</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16163</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes Rolley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16163</guid>
		<description>You are all right.  That is why we should all invest a small amount of time writing for local consumption.  Today, I had an &lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/cu4f9j&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Earth Day  column&lt;/a&gt; in my local newspaper.  The Morgan Hill, (CA) Times.  It did not take long to write... some may think that I should have taken longer.     I have done this for several years and, over time, the number of letters to the editor that support green positions is increasing and the number of de-nihilist comments has dropped to near zero.

This battle will not be won by fighting it out on the pages of the Gray Lady or the Washington Post.   The Morano&#039;s of the world do not have enough people, time or money to takes us all on in every venue that we can find.  It we really want to win this argument, it will come though organized, planned, grassroots efforts.

If you have read Chris&#039;s columns, write your own.  That is how we win.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are all right.  That is why we should all invest a small amount of time writing for local consumption.  Today, I had an <a href="http://tinyurl.com/cu4f9j" rel="nofollow">Earth Day  column</a> in my local newspaper.  The Morgan Hill, (CA) Times.  It did not take long to write&#8230; some may think that I should have taken longer.     I have done this for several years and, over time, the number of letters to the editor that support green positions is increasing and the number of de-nihilist comments has dropped to near zero.</p>
<p>This battle will not be won by fighting it out on the pages of the Gray Lady or the Washington Post.   The Morano&#8217;s of the world do not have enough people, time or money to takes us all on in every venue that we can find.  It we really want to win this argument, it will come though organized, planned, grassroots efforts.</p>
<p>If you have read Chris&#8217;s columns, write your own.  That is how we win.</p>
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		<title>By: Emily Gertz</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16162</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily Gertz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 17:14:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16162</guid>
		<description>You make a great point, Chris.  Which sadly, most of these commenters are largely eliding in favor of character analyses of the opposition.

People who want to tell the public the facts about phenomena like global warming -- let&#039;s call them &quot;environmental journalists&quot; if they strive to be apolitical, and &quot;activists&quot; if they see themselves as blatant actors within or against &quot;the system&quot; -- must generally undertake the same amount of investment and expense as those who, for whatever reasons, end up employed at spreading disinformation about these same phenomena.  The same years of costly education, and &quot;apprenticeships&quot; via internships and low-paying early jobs. The same costs of life, such as medical bills, overdue fees at the library, vacations, rent-slash-mortgage, raising progeny, gifts for family members on their birthdays, the occasional purchase of some insane luxury like a piece of jewelry or a nice pair of shoes. Etcetera.

However, do-badders can look forward to an endlessly rising ceiling of pay and professional opportunities to make all this up.  While, the pay ceiling is about waist high for the do-good opposite numbers of the Marc Moranos.

My own (somewhat tongue in cheek) theory about why this is, is that right wingers don&#039;t have a fundamental ethical problem with wanting and having money, as a concept or a reality.  While liberals, progressives, and leftists, who need to position themselves against the abuses of &quot;the system,&quot; even when they ARE the system, distrust money, and disdain the notion that anyone who wants to make good money really sincerely cares about doing good.  And God knows they must be sincere!

Some keep hoping they&#039;ll wake up in the antiseptic Star Trek future where we&#039;ve overcome the need for dirty money and can just get on with doing the good work.

Others actually are making good money, but have to dissemble so much about it to maintain the appearance of ideological purity, that nothing fundamental changes.  (See the right-wing attacks on Al Gore&#039;s investment endeavors for demonstration of this phenomenon turned into an enemy weapon.  Kudos to Mr. Gore&#039;s business acumen, sez I, and imagine how much better things might become if Royal Dutch Shell followed his lead.)

I don&#039;t know what excuse the environmental journalists have, however.  Like any journos, we&#039;re certainly cynical enough to have known from the start what we were getting ourselves into. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make a great point, Chris.  Which sadly, most of these commenters are largely eliding in favor of character analyses of the opposition.</p>
<p>People who want to tell the public the facts about phenomena like global warming &#8212; let&#8217;s call them &#8220;environmental journalists&#8221; if they strive to be apolitical, and &#8220;activists&#8221; if they see themselves as blatant actors within or against &#8220;the system&#8221; &#8212; must generally undertake the same amount of investment and expense as those who, for whatever reasons, end up employed at spreading disinformation about these same phenomena.  The same years of costly education, and &#8220;apprenticeships&#8221; via internships and low-paying early jobs. The same costs of life, such as medical bills, overdue fees at the library, vacations, rent-slash-mortgage, raising progeny, gifts for family members on their birthdays, the occasional purchase of some insane luxury like a piece of jewelry or a nice pair of shoes. Etcetera.</p>
<p>However, do-badders can look forward to an endlessly rising ceiling of pay and professional opportunities to make all this up.  While, the pay ceiling is about waist high for the do-good opposite numbers of the Marc Moranos.</p>
<p>My own (somewhat tongue in cheek) theory about why this is, is that right wingers don&#8217;t have a fundamental ethical problem with wanting and having money, as a concept or a reality.  While liberals, progressives, and leftists, who need to position themselves against the abuses of &#8220;the system,&#8221; even when they ARE the system, distrust money, and disdain the notion that anyone who wants to make good money really sincerely cares about doing good.  And God knows they must be sincere!</p>
<p>Some keep hoping they&#8217;ll wake up in the antiseptic Star Trek future where we&#8217;ve overcome the need for dirty money and can just get on with doing the good work.</p>
<p>Others actually are making good money, but have to dissemble so much about it to maintain the appearance of ideological purity, that nothing fundamental changes.  (See the right-wing attacks on Al Gore&#8217;s investment endeavors for demonstration of this phenomenon turned into an enemy weapon.  Kudos to Mr. Gore&#8217;s business acumen, sez I, and imagine how much better things might become if Royal Dutch Shell followed his lead.)</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know what excuse the environmental journalists have, however.  Like any journos, we&#8217;re certainly cynical enough to have known from the start what we were getting ourselves into. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Erasmussimo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16161</link>
		<dc:creator>Erasmussimo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16161</guid>
		<description>There is certainly a fundamental point to be considered here, expressed in the old adage from Watergate: follow the money. Who stands to gain money and who stands to lose money from the response to AGW? The skeptics emit an inky barrage of accusations that advocates of AGW are just in it for the money. They never explain how this might happen; they wave their arms around and talk about government money, but they never get specific. They can&#039;t point to anybody who&#039;s getting rich supporting AGW.

By contrast, there are a lot of interests that stand to lose a lot of money if we take AGW seriously. All the fossil fuel companies, all the companies that use fossil fuels in large amounts -- this is going to cost them billions and billions of dollars. And so it&#039;s a good investment on their part to finance opposition to AGW.

So yes, the money favors the opponents of AGW. In general, I would be reluctant to argue this point, because it is ultimately invidious. Moreover, we don&#039;t need it; we have the science on our side. And politically we&#039;re winning.

However, there is an ugly hypothesis that bears consideration: the possibility that opponents of AGW are paying sock puppets to argue their case online. &quot;On the Internet, nobody knows that you&#039;re a dog.&quot; There certainly seems to be an army of such people out there, and their online presence far exceeds their presence in the real world. Out in the real world, these people are generally regarded as extremists; here on the Internet, they are ubiquitous. I certainly don&#039;t want to advance some sort of dark conspiracy theory; I suspect that some fraction of the online opponents of AGW are sincere if misinformed. For them, this is an expression of the culture wars. Just look at the vituperation they vomit forth -- clearly this is not a scientific issue for them, but a deeply emotional one. Indeed, I would expect that any paid sock puppets would be much more reasonable in their approach, the better to undermine confidence.

Why these people are motivated by such anger and hate is another question entirely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is certainly a fundamental point to be considered here, expressed in the old adage from Watergate: follow the money. Who stands to gain money and who stands to lose money from the response to AGW? The skeptics emit an inky barrage of accusations that advocates of AGW are just in it for the money. They never explain how this might happen; they wave their arms around and talk about government money, but they never get specific. They can&#8217;t point to anybody who&#8217;s getting rich supporting AGW.</p>
<p>By contrast, there are a lot of interests that stand to lose a lot of money if we take AGW seriously. All the fossil fuel companies, all the companies that use fossil fuels in large amounts &#8212; this is going to cost them billions and billions of dollars. And so it&#8217;s a good investment on their part to finance opposition to AGW.</p>
<p>So yes, the money favors the opponents of AGW. In general, I would be reluctant to argue this point, because it is ultimately invidious. Moreover, we don&#8217;t need it; we have the science on our side. And politically we&#8217;re winning.</p>
<p>However, there is an ugly hypothesis that bears consideration: the possibility that opponents of AGW are paying sock puppets to argue their case online. &#8220;On the Internet, nobody knows that you&#8217;re a dog.&#8221; There certainly seems to be an army of such people out there, and their online presence far exceeds their presence in the real world. Out in the real world, these people are generally regarded as extremists; here on the Internet, they are ubiquitous. I certainly don&#8217;t want to advance some sort of dark conspiracy theory; I suspect that some fraction of the online opponents of AGW are sincere if misinformed. For them, this is an expression of the culture wars. Just look at the vituperation they vomit forth &#8212; clearly this is not a scientific issue for them, but a deeply emotional one. Indeed, I would expect that any paid sock puppets would be much more reasonable in their approach, the better to undermine confidence.</p>
<p>Why these people are motivated by such anger and hate is another question entirely.</p>
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		<title>By: Carman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16160</link>
		<dc:creator>Carman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16160</guid>
		<description>Ashutosh, we agree that the same thing is a problem, but maybe for slightly different reasons.

Not too long ago, I spent an hour at a bar trying to convince a pretty smart guy that the dew point was really not at all related to climate change.  His argument was confusing, convoluted, and ultimately very seductive if you didn&#039;t know a lot about science.  He didn&#039;t come up with the argument on his own.   There&#039;s a team of very smart people formulating and disseminating these arguments, and they&#039;ve got all the resources they need to do so.

That we have scientific facts behind us should strengthen our rhetorical position but doesn&#039;t mean we don&#039;t need to have one.  We can be right all day long and still lose the argument if we fail to convince everyone else that we&#039;re right.  Framing a debate takes time and talent, and ultimately it takes money, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ashutosh, we agree that the same thing is a problem, but maybe for slightly different reasons.</p>
<p>Not too long ago, I spent an hour at a bar trying to convince a pretty smart guy that the dew point was really not at all related to climate change.  His argument was confusing, convoluted, and ultimately very seductive if you didn&#8217;t know a lot about science.  He didn&#8217;t come up with the argument on his own.   There&#8217;s a team of very smart people formulating and disseminating these arguments, and they&#8217;ve got all the resources they need to do so.</p>
<p>That we have scientific facts behind us should strengthen our rhetorical position but doesn&#8217;t mean we don&#8217;t need to have one.  We can be right all day long and still lose the argument if we fail to convince everyone else that we&#8217;re right.  Framing a debate takes time and talent, and ultimately it takes money, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Ashutosh</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16159</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashutosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16159</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s the problem; for them it&#039;s still mostly about rhetoric. For us it&#039;s about the science, which unfortunately does not always sound exciting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s the problem; for them it&#8217;s still mostly about rhetoric. For us it&#8217;s about the science, which unfortunately does not always sound exciting.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Mooney</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16158</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Mooney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/04/10/marc-moranos-salary-134000/#comment-16158</guid>
		<description>Hi Carman,
Exactly what I&#039;m trying to get at.....Ashutosh, this isn&#039;t intended as an attack, and I hope none will read it that way. Seriously, good for Morano. It&#039;s an observation about the economics of this debate and why we lose it....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Carman,<br />
Exactly what I&#8217;m trying to get at&#8230;..Ashutosh, this isn&#8217;t intended as an attack, and I hope none will read it that way. Seriously, good for Morano. It&#8217;s an observation about the economics of this debate and why we lose it&#8230;.</p>
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