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	<title>Comments on: PZ, Your Book is En Route</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/</link>
	<description>Where science collides with life, slams into culture, crashes with politics, and gets totaled.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:28:30 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Could This Get Any Stupider? &#171; Fineness &#38; Accuracy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-24033</link>
		<dc:creator>Could This Get Any Stupider? &#171; Fineness &#38; Accuracy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-24033</guid>
		<description>[...] on Mooney&#8217;s and Kirshenbaum&#8217;s part to be such a breach — and Mooney and Kirshenbaum responded that the process of sending out review copies had just been disorganized, and that he had always [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on Mooney&#8217;s and Kirshenbaum&#8217;s part to be such a breach — and Mooney and Kirshenbaum responded that the process of sending out review copies had just been disorganized, and that he had always [...]</p>
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		<title>By: What am I supposed to do with Unscientific America? &#171; Why Evolution Is True</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-23430</link>
		<dc:creator>What am I supposed to do with Unscientific America? &#171; Why Evolution Is True</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-23430</guid>
		<description>[...] Kirshenbaum consider inimical to public acceptance of science.   Mooney and Kirshenbaum posted a note on their website that they had sent P. Z. a copy of their book, asking him to refrain from reviewing it until he had [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Kirshenbaum consider inimical to public acceptance of science.   Mooney and Kirshenbaum posted a note on their website that they had sent P. Z. a copy of their book, asking him to refrain from reviewing it until he had [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Orson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-23018</link>
		<dc:creator>Orson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:32:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-23018</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The real issue is the future of America, how we dig ourselves out of this economic mess, conquer global warming, and properly educate our citizens.&lt;/i&gt; Hhmmm.

Well, speaking of &quot;educating our citizens&quot; and conquering &quot;global warming&quot; in the same sentence, &lt;a href=&quot;http://algorelied.com/?p=2429&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;is it not curious that current global temperatures match the 1980s global average?&lt;/a&gt;

Facts, as John Adams famously said, are stubborn things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The real issue is the future of America, how we dig ourselves out of this economic mess, conquer global warming, and properly educate our citizens.</i> Hhmmm.</p>
<p>Well, speaking of &#8220;educating our citizens&#8221; and conquering &#8220;global warming&#8221; in the same sentence, <a href="http://algorelied.com/?p=2429" rel="nofollow">is it not curious that current global temperatures match the 1980s global average?</a></p>
<p>Facts, as John Adams famously said, are stubborn things.</p>
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		<title>By: John Kwok</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22999</link>
		<dc:creator>John Kwok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 03:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22999</guid>
		<description>@ Skepacabra -

It is ironic that you quote from a great believer in democratic government, Frederick Douglass, since the online behavior I have read from many of your compatriots is one that I would recognize in the zealous acts of the Red Guards during the People Republic China&#039;s infamous, nearly decade-long Cultural Revolution.

In the Intersection blog on survey data on science and religion, John Kotcher has brought to our attention the writings of eminent evolutionary biologist David Sloan Wilson, who, writing over at the Huffington Post, has observed that atheism is a &#039;stealth religion&quot;. His assessment may be correct, especially in light of the abysmal online conduct I have seen from your fellow militant atheists here and elsewhere:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sloan-wilson/#blogger_bio</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Skepacabra -</p>
<p>It is ironic that you quote from a great believer in democratic government, Frederick Douglass, since the online behavior I have read from many of your compatriots is one that I would recognize in the zealous acts of the Red Guards during the People Republic China&#8217;s infamous, nearly decade-long Cultural Revolution.</p>
<p>In the Intersection blog on survey data on science and religion, John Kotcher has brought to our attention the writings of eminent evolutionary biologist David Sloan Wilson, who, writing over at the Huffington Post, has observed that atheism is a &#8216;stealth religion&#8221;. His assessment may be correct, especially in light of the abysmal online conduct I have seen from your fellow militant atheists here and elsewhere:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sloan-wilson/#blogger_bio" rel="nofollow">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sloan-wilson/#blogger_bio</a></p>
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		<title>By: Skepacabra</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22994</link>
		<dc:creator>Skepacabra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 03:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22994</guid>
		<description>Again, how are you defining the word &quot;militant?&quot; It seems to me that to you militant simply means anyone who passionately disagrees with your position. According to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

1  : engaged in warfare or combat : fighting    
2  : aggressively active (as in a cause) : combative &lt;militant conservationists&gt; &lt;a militant attitude rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;

I&#039;m certainly not engaged in any warfare or combat. And all I&#039;m doing is responding to someone else&#039;s blog and commentors on that blog, so can&#039;t be accused of being &quot;active.&quot; At most, I&#039;m re-active or defensive. If you&#039;re advocating for those you disagree with to be &quot;not active,&quot; then you&#039;re indeed effectively telling us to &quot;shut up,&quot; which is one of the charges commonly made about those taking your position on this topic. And if it&#039;s our mere opinion itself that you&#039;re calling militant, regardless of whether we&#039;re active, reactive, defensive, or almost entirely silent about it, then you&#039;re radically redefining the word. 

Now I&#039;ll say once again that I do not fit either definition of the word. And if you are simply opposed to the conflict, clearly you are yourself guilty of also guilty of passionately defending your opinion. 

Now you said: &quot;Indeed, since you raised that observation, then let me ask whether you and your fellow militants are being intellectually honest with yourselves in believing that you can persuade religiously devout Americans into rejecting their religious values, recognize evolution as valid science, and embrace the New Atheist agenda espoused by the likes of Coyne, Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Myers?&quot;

As I&#039;ve already stated, whether or not it&#039;s an effective strategy for persuasion wholly irrelevant to whether or not it&#039;s true. But neither strategy has proven very effective in changing the minds of the deeply religious. However, it wasn&#039;t until the so-called &quot;New Atheists,&quot; as you like to call us, started letting their voices be heard that we started to see a rapid rise in atheism and a rapid decline in evangelism in the U.S. It could be a coincidence. But I doubt it. And whether or not the culture war ends soon is also irrelevant. And if you&#039;re really going to argue that everybody&#039;s inconsistent, then you&#039;re opening the door to justify belief in anything. If you&#039;re rational person, you should be seeking to be as consistent as possible. And to argue that a person can consistently embrace a scientific worldview while at the same time believing that different languages came about because god wanted to punish humans for trying to build a tower to reach heaven is absurd. 




&quot;Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle! Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.&quot;
-Frederick Douglass</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, how are you defining the word &#8220;militant?&#8221; It seems to me that to you militant simply means anyone who passionately disagrees with your position. According to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:</p>
<p>1  : engaged in warfare or combat : fighting<br />
2  : aggressively active (as in a cause) : combative <militant conservationists> <a militant attitude rel="nofollow"></p>
<p>I&#8217;m certainly not engaged in any warfare or combat. And all I&#8217;m doing is responding to someone else&#8217;s blog and commentors on that blog, so can&#8217;t be accused of being &#8220;active.&#8221; At most, I&#8217;m re-active or defensive. If you&#8217;re advocating for those you disagree with to be &#8220;not active,&#8221; then you&#8217;re indeed effectively telling us to &#8220;shut up,&#8221; which is one of the charges commonly made about those taking your position on this topic. And if it&#8217;s our mere opinion itself that you&#8217;re calling militant, regardless of whether we&#8217;re active, reactive, defensive, or almost entirely silent about it, then you&#8217;re radically redefining the word. </p>
<p>Now I&#8217;ll say once again that I do not fit either definition of the word. And if you are simply opposed to the conflict, clearly you are yourself guilty of also guilty of passionately defending your opinion. </p>
<p>Now you said: &#8220;Indeed, since you raised that observation, then let me ask whether you and your fellow militants are being intellectually honest with yourselves in believing that you can persuade religiously devout Americans into rejecting their religious values, recognize evolution as valid science, and embrace the New Atheist agenda espoused by the likes of Coyne, Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Myers?&#8221;</p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve already stated, whether or not it&#8217;s an effective strategy for persuasion wholly irrelevant to whether or not it&#8217;s true. But neither strategy has proven very effective in changing the minds of the deeply religious. However, it wasn&#8217;t until the so-called &#8220;New Atheists,&#8221; as you like to call us, started letting their voices be heard that we started to see a rapid rise in atheism and a rapid decline in evangelism in the U.S. It could be a coincidence. But I doubt it. And whether or not the culture war ends soon is also irrelevant. And if you&#8217;re really going to argue that everybody&#8217;s inconsistent, then you&#8217;re opening the door to justify belief in anything. If you&#8217;re rational person, you should be seeking to be as consistent as possible. And to argue that a person can consistently embrace a scientific worldview while at the same time believing that different languages came about because god wanted to punish humans for trying to build a tower to reach heaven is absurd. </p>
<p>&#8220;Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle! Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.&#8221;<br />
-Frederick Douglass</a></militant></p>
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		<title>By: Christina Viering</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22990</link>
		<dc:creator>Christina Viering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 02:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22990</guid>
		<description>Good info!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good info!</p>
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		<title>By: John Kwok</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22836</link>
		<dc:creator>John Kwok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 05:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22836</guid>
		<description>@ Skepacabra -

On the contrary, I disagree. I think they are being intellectually honest with themselves as I have noted. Indeed, since you raised that observation, then let me ask whether you and your fellow militants are being intellectually honest with yourselves in believing that you can persuade religiously devout Americans into rejecting their religious values, recognize evolution as valid science, and embrace the New Atheist agenda espoused by the likes of Coyne, Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Myers? At least one of your more prominent leaders, Lawrence Krauss, is enough of a realist to realize that this won&#039;t happen any time soon.

If you want to use me as an example, you could ask how I, a registered Republican, could accept evolution as valid science (Incidentally there are quite a few Republicans who do.). Human beings  are by the very nature, inconsistent, and yet they can still be intellectually honest with themselves  and others.), without realizing that I could do this, in part, because I was trained as an evolutionary biologist, and because, more importantly, my very conscience would expect no less from myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Skepacabra -</p>
<p>On the contrary, I disagree. I think they are being intellectually honest with themselves as I have noted. Indeed, since you raised that observation, then let me ask whether you and your fellow militants are being intellectually honest with yourselves in believing that you can persuade religiously devout Americans into rejecting their religious values, recognize evolution as valid science, and embrace the New Atheist agenda espoused by the likes of Coyne, Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Myers? At least one of your more prominent leaders, Lawrence Krauss, is enough of a realist to realize that this won&#8217;t happen any time soon.</p>
<p>If you want to use me as an example, you could ask how I, a registered Republican, could accept evolution as valid science (Incidentally there are quite a few Republicans who do.). Human beings  are by the very nature, inconsistent, and yet they can still be intellectually honest with themselves  and others.), without realizing that I could do this, in part, because I was trained as an evolutionary biologist, and because, more importantly, my very conscience would expect no less from myself.</p>
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		<title>By: Skepacabra</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22834</link>
		<dc:creator>Skepacabra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 04:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22834</guid>
		<description>@ John Kwok -

I think you missed the part about having to be intellectually honest with themselves. I don&#039;t deny that there have been brilliant scientific minds who believed in god. That is indeed undeniable. What I&#039;m arguing is that their reasons for doing so are neither rational nor scientific and that simply saying, well, that&#039;s just my faith is a cop-out to avoid addressing the inherent inconsistency in their standards of evidence. While absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence, and what can be asserted without evidence can just as easily be rejected without evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ John Kwok -</p>
<p>I think you missed the part about having to be intellectually honest with themselves. I don&#8217;t deny that there have been brilliant scientific minds who believed in god. That is indeed undeniable. What I&#8217;m arguing is that their reasons for doing so are neither rational nor scientific and that simply saying, well, that&#8217;s just my faith is a cop-out to avoid addressing the inherent inconsistency in their standards of evidence. While absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence, and what can be asserted without evidence can just as easily be rejected without evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: John Kwok</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22803</link>
		<dc:creator>John Kwok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:58:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22803</guid>
		<description>@ jake -

No, absolutely not. All the people I cited (with perhaps the possible exception of Simon Conway Morris) place their strict adherence to science and the scientific method &quot;light years&quot; ahead of their religious considerations.  Ayala, Rosenzweig and Wilson are all definitely scientists of the first rank, who have probably made more important - and more lasting - contributions in evolutionary biology than either Coyne or Dawkins. And then of course, there&#039;s Dobzhansky, whom I would place after Ernst Mayr  and Sir Ronald A. Fisher as among our most important 20th Century evolutionary biologists.

Your &quot;comparison&quot; is not merely risible, but it is actually quite pregnant in its breathtaking inanity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ jake -</p>
<p>No, absolutely not. All the people I cited (with perhaps the possible exception of Simon Conway Morris) place their strict adherence to science and the scientific method &#8220;light years&#8221; ahead of their religious considerations.  Ayala, Rosenzweig and Wilson are all definitely scientists of the first rank, who have probably made more important &#8211; and more lasting &#8211; contributions in evolutionary biology than either Coyne or Dawkins. And then of course, there&#8217;s Dobzhansky, whom I would place after Ernst Mayr  and Sir Ronald A. Fisher as among our most important 20th Century evolutionary biologists.</p>
<p>Your &#8220;comparison&#8221; is not merely risible, but it is actually quite pregnant in its breathtaking inanity.</p>
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		<title>By: jake</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22801</link>
		<dc:creator>jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/07/02/pz-your-book-is-en-route/#comment-22801</guid>
		<description>John Kwok @ 89 -

By the standard you are using the practice of medicine and homeopathy are compatible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Kwok @ 89 -</p>
<p>By the standard you are using the practice of medicine and homeopathy are compatible.</p>
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