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	<title>Comments on: 2012: Or, How the New Hollywood Loves Scientists, Even Though It Still Hates Plausibility</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/11/12/2012/</link>
	<description>Where science collides with life, slams into culture, crashes with politics, and gets totaled.</description>
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		<title>By: TVs That Will Suck Hollywood Into the 3rd Dimension [Pics] &#124; AboutGadgets.info</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/11/12/2012/#comment-46682</link>
		<dc:creator>TVs That Will Suck Hollywood Into the 3rd Dimension [Pics] &#124; AboutGadgets.info</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:37:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=4220#comment-46682</guid>
		<description>[...] 2012: Or, How the New Hollywood Loves Scientists, Even Though It &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 2012: Or, How the New Hollywood Loves Scientists, Even Though It &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: 2012 and scientists &#171; A Man With A Ph.D.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/11/12/2012/#comment-36564</link>
		<dc:creator>2012 and scientists &#171; A Man With A Ph.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=4220#comment-36564</guid>
		<description>[...] and&#160;scientists November 18, 2009 &#8212; Richard    by e-strategyblog.com2012: Or, How the New Hollywood Loves Scientists, Even Though It Still Hates Plausibility [Via The [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and&nbsp;scientists November 18, 2009 &#8212; Richard    by e-strategyblog.com2012: Or, How the New Hollywood Loves Scientists, Even Though It Still Hates Plausibility [Via The [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Passerby</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/11/12/2012/#comment-35836</link>
		<dc:creator>Passerby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=4220#comment-35836</guid>
		<description>Toasterhead, do you know what the error limits on these numbers are? I am just curious. Is 0.07 C within error?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toasterhead, do you know what the error limits on these numbers are? I am just curious. Is 0.07 C within error?</p>
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		<title>By: Erasmussimo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/11/12/2012/#comment-35833</link>
		<dc:creator>Erasmussimo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=4220#comment-35833</guid>
		<description>It would be easier for me to re-do the calculation here, but this time I&#039;ll do it a little differently. Let&#039;s start with the heat capacity of water: 4.19 J/gm-ºK. Next comes the mass of water in oceans: 1.35 x 10**24 gm. Hence, the gross heat capacity of the oceans is 5.66 x 10**24 J/ºK. 

Now let&#039;s consider the total power input of the sun: about 1000 W/m**2 at the surface, for a total of about 1.3 x 10**17 W. Divide that into the gross heat capacity of the oceans and you get about 4.5 x 10**7 seconds -- a bit more than one year. In other words, if there were no feedback mechanisms and the sun simply blinked out, the initial cooling of the earth would be only about 1ºK per year. However, we&#039;re not talking about anything as dramatic as that. A 1% change in total incoming radiation would take about 100 years to show a change of 1ºK. The primary forcing factors for AGW are CO2 and methane, which yield effects of only about 2 or 3 W/m**2. However, the feedback effects increase the overall forcing to perhaps 5 W/m**2, which should take about 200 years to show an increase in temperature of 1ºK. However, all this assumes rapid and complete mixing in the oceans, which is not likely. Indeed, the mixing of heat in the oceans is probably the main factor behind short-term variations in surface temperatures. It could well be that the pause we have seen in the last ten years is due to a change in ocean circulations that has dramatically increased mixing rates. 

As you can see, this quickly gets very complicated. However, the key point is simple: the oceans act as a gigantic heat reservoir, and so they act to slow down the earth&#039;s response to temperature changes. For changes of the magnitude we&#039;re looking at, we&#039;re talking roughly centuries in order to get a significant change in temperature. You can push it down to maybe 30 years if you want to talk about the smallest changes that we could measure with some reliability. Below that 30 year mark, the fluctuations we see cannot reflect any real change in the earth&#039;s overall temperature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be easier for me to re-do the calculation here, but this time I&#8217;ll do it a little differently. Let&#8217;s start with the heat capacity of water: 4.19 J/gm-ºK. Next comes the mass of water in oceans: 1.35 x 10**24 gm. Hence, the gross heat capacity of the oceans is 5.66 x 10**24 J/ºK. </p>
<p>Now let&#8217;s consider the total power input of the sun: about 1000 W/m**2 at the surface, for a total of about 1.3 x 10**17 W. Divide that into the gross heat capacity of the oceans and you get about 4.5 x 10**7 seconds &#8212; a bit more than one year. In other words, if there were no feedback mechanisms and the sun simply blinked out, the initial cooling of the earth would be only about 1ºK per year. However, we&#8217;re not talking about anything as dramatic as that. A 1% change in total incoming radiation would take about 100 years to show a change of 1ºK. The primary forcing factors for AGW are CO2 and methane, which yield effects of only about 2 or 3 W/m**2. However, the feedback effects increase the overall forcing to perhaps 5 W/m**2, which should take about 200 years to show an increase in temperature of 1ºK. However, all this assumes rapid and complete mixing in the oceans, which is not likely. Indeed, the mixing of heat in the oceans is probably the main factor behind short-term variations in surface temperatures. It could well be that the pause we have seen in the last ten years is due to a change in ocean circulations that has dramatically increased mixing rates. </p>
<p>As you can see, this quickly gets very complicated. However, the key point is simple: the oceans act as a gigantic heat reservoir, and so they act to slow down the earth&#8217;s response to temperature changes. For changes of the magnitude we&#8217;re looking at, we&#8217;re talking roughly centuries in order to get a significant change in temperature. You can push it down to maybe 30 years if you want to talk about the smallest changes that we could measure with some reliability. Below that 30 year mark, the fluctuations we see cannot reflect any real change in the earth&#8217;s overall temperature.</p>
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		<title>By: toasterhead</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/11/12/2012/#comment-35824</link>
		<dc:creator>toasterhead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=4220#comment-35824</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;19.   Passerby Says: 
November 13th, 2009 at 12:50 pm 
Agreed. All we are asking for here is to call a spade a spade and stagnation stagnation. I agree we don’t want the usual right wing loons to misinterpet us, but as I scientist I believe in making all data known with the usual qualifications (as noted in the Science article) and not just that which is favorable to our preferred outcome. &lt;/i&gt;
__________

Fair enough, but the facts I&#039;ve seen don&#039;t indicate stagnation.  A slowdown, yes, but a warming trend of .07 degree Celsius is still a warming trend.  There is a widespread meme in both mainstream and denier-media, prompted no doubt by a couple of brutal winters in several parts of the United States, that climate change has stopped or reversed or that the planet is cooling, and this is simply not true.

I&#039;m also all for making all data known, but it&#039;s useless unless it&#039;s put into context.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>19.   Passerby Says:<br />
November 13th, 2009 at 12:50 pm<br />
Agreed. All we are asking for here is to call a spade a spade and stagnation stagnation. I agree we don’t want the usual right wing loons to misinterpet us, but as I scientist I believe in making all data known with the usual qualifications (as noted in the Science article) and not just that which is favorable to our preferred outcome. </i><br />
__________</p>
<p>Fair enough, but the facts I&#8217;ve seen don&#8217;t indicate stagnation.  A slowdown, yes, but a warming trend of .07 degree Celsius is still a warming trend.  There is a widespread meme in both mainstream and denier-media, prompted no doubt by a couple of brutal winters in several parts of the United States, that climate change has stopped or reversed or that the planet is cooling, and this is simply not true.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also all for making all data known, but it&#8217;s useless unless it&#8217;s put into context.</p>
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		<title>By: Passerby</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/11/12/2012/#comment-35819</link>
		<dc:creator>Passerby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=4220#comment-35819</guid>
		<description>Erasmussimo, could you point out where you did the calculations? Water certainly has one of the highest heat capacities of any solvent, partly due to its extensive hydrogen bonding network which can rearrange.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erasmussimo, could you point out where you did the calculations? Water certainly has one of the highest heat capacities of any solvent, partly due to its extensive hydrogen bonding network which can rearrange.</p>
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		<title>By: Passerby</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/11/12/2012/#comment-35818</link>
		<dc:creator>Passerby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=4220#comment-35818</guid>
		<description>Agreed. All we are asking for here is to call a spade a spade and stagnation stagnation. I agree we don&#039;t want the usual right wing loons to misinterpet us, but as I scientist I believe in making &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; data known with the usual qualifications (as noted in the Science article) and not just that which is favorable to our preferred outcome. Otherwise we would not be any different from the odious global warming deniers who cherry pick with abandon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed. All we are asking for here is to call a spade a spade and stagnation stagnation. I agree we don&#8217;t want the usual right wing loons to misinterpet us, but as I scientist I believe in making <i>all</i> data known with the usual qualifications (as noted in the Science article) and not just that which is favorable to our preferred outcome. Otherwise we would not be any different from the odious global warming deniers who cherry pick with abandon.</p>
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		<title>By: Tuatara</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/11/12/2012/#comment-35808</link>
		<dc:creator>Tuatara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=4220#comment-35808</guid>
		<description>Plausibility is boring.  Show me the dragons!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plausibility is boring.  Show me the dragons!</p>
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		<title>By: Erasmussimo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/11/12/2012/#comment-35807</link>
		<dc:creator>Erasmussimo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=4220#comment-35807</guid>
		<description>Passerby, the calculation of the &quot;minimum significant time&quot; for climate change is based on the total heat capacity of the oceans compared to the earth&#039;s radiative loss rate. I&#039;ve done the calculation several times in my comments on this blog, but I can never remember off the top of my head the intermediate numbers. Basically, if the sun suddenly increased its power output by, say, 10%, the earth overall would not immediately increase its average temperature by 10%. (Actually, even when it reaches equilibrium, it will be only 2.5% hotter, but that&#039;s another consideration.) The earth&#039;s temperature would rise slowly because the oceans would absorb the heat. It takes a LOT of heat to boil a pan of water, and it takes even more heat to raise the temperature of the oceans. These calculations do not yield a hard and fast number for the response time, because the response is asymptotic. However, when you consider the equation and the coefficients, you end up with the conclusion that we&#039;re talking about centuries for a change of any magnitude to fully express itself. If you want to push it, you should be able to see a change of this magnitude to start to express itself in 30 years -- but&#039;s that&#039;s a minimum. Certainly 10 years is way too short to produce any measurable effect of true climate change. To put it baldly, anything less than 30 years is weather, and anything more than 30 years is climate. 

This consideration also applies to climate models. A climate model really doesn&#039;t concern changes over a time frame of less than 30 years. Asking a climate model to predict changes over the course of ten years is really no different from asking it to predict the temperature at the corner of 5th and Oak in Peoria on July 18th, 2034, at 10:33 AM.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Passerby, the calculation of the &#8220;minimum significant time&#8221; for climate change is based on the total heat capacity of the oceans compared to the earth&#8217;s radiative loss rate. I&#8217;ve done the calculation several times in my comments on this blog, but I can never remember off the top of my head the intermediate numbers. Basically, if the sun suddenly increased its power output by, say, 10%, the earth overall would not immediately increase its average temperature by 10%. (Actually, even when it reaches equilibrium, it will be only 2.5% hotter, but that&#8217;s another consideration.) The earth&#8217;s temperature would rise slowly because the oceans would absorb the heat. It takes a LOT of heat to boil a pan of water, and it takes even more heat to raise the temperature of the oceans. These calculations do not yield a hard and fast number for the response time, because the response is asymptotic. However, when you consider the equation and the coefficients, you end up with the conclusion that we&#8217;re talking about centuries for a change of any magnitude to fully express itself. If you want to push it, you should be able to see a change of this magnitude to start to express itself in 30 years &#8212; but&#8217;s that&#8217;s a minimum. Certainly 10 years is way too short to produce any measurable effect of true climate change. To put it baldly, anything less than 30 years is weather, and anything more than 30 years is climate. </p>
<p>This consideration also applies to climate models. A climate model really doesn&#8217;t concern changes over a time frame of less than 30 years. Asking a climate model to predict changes over the course of ten years is really no different from asking it to predict the temperature at the corner of 5th and Oak in Peoria on July 18th, 2034, at 10:33 AM.</p>
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		<title>By: Sorbet</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/11/12/2012/#comment-35781</link>
		<dc:creator>Sorbet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 02:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=4220#comment-35781</guid>
		<description>-It’s not disingenuous to deny the lack of warming in recent years when there hasn’t been a lack of warming in recent years.

A language correction. &quot;Warming&quot; by definition implies a change in temperature, so stagnation cannot be defined as warming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>-It’s not disingenuous to deny the lack of warming in recent years when there hasn’t been a lack of warming in recent years.</p>
<p>A language correction. &#8220;Warming&#8221; by definition implies a change in temperature, so stagnation cannot be defined as warming.</p>
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