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	<title>Comments on: Reflections on &#8220;Unruly Democracy&#8221; from Bioephemera (Jessica Palmer)</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2010/05/02/reflections-on-unruly-democracy-from-bioephemera-jessica-palmer/</link>
	<description>Where science collides with life, slams into culture, crashes with politics, and gets totaled.</description>
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		<title>By: Neuron Culture - Biophemera on civility and tensions among blogospheria</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2010/05/02/reflections-on-unruly-democracy-from-bioephemera-jessica-palmer/#comment-63049</link>
		<dc:creator>Neuron Culture - Biophemera on civility and tensions among blogospheria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 15:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=8237#comment-63049</guid>
		<description>[...] good stuff there. See also Chris Mooney&#8217;s post on Palmer&#8217;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] good stuff there. See also Chris Mooney&#8217;s post on Palmer&#8217;s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Mooney</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2010/05/02/reflections-on-unruly-democracy-from-bioephemera-jessica-palmer/#comment-57208</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Mooney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 May 2010 22:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=8237#comment-57208</guid>
		<description>Here is a Virginia AG thread

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2010/05/02/attack-on-climate-scientists/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a Virginia AG thread</p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2010/05/02/attack-on-climate-scientists/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2010/05/02/attack-on-climate-scientists/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Mooney</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2010/05/02/reflections-on-unruly-democracy-from-bioephemera-jessica-palmer/#comment-57207</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Mooney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 May 2010 21:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=8237#comment-57207</guid>
		<description>Folks, let&#039;s do the Virginia AG thing on another thread, as I will blog on it soon. please keep this one on topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Folks, let&#8217;s do the Virginia AG thing on another thread, as I will blog on it soon. please keep this one on topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Gaythia</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2010/05/02/reflections-on-unruly-democracy-from-bioephemera-jessica-palmer/#comment-57201</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaythia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 May 2010 20:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=8237#comment-57201</guid>
		<description>@2 Both Michael Mann and the University of Virginia are likely to have to respond to this situation from behind the shields of their attorneys.  I believe that this is the reason for the very terse statements from the University of Virginia so far.

I think that this is a test for the rest of us.  In my opinion, Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli is making a very politically calculated move, one which he is likely to believe will be quite popular with his constituency.  Science Blogs such as Deltoid are providing a very useful service in raising the alarm among those of us active in this region of the blogosphere.

But can we succeed in doing outreach?   Can information provided by Science bloggers be relayed outward and transformed into support?

Name calling, in my opinion, only strengthens the Virginia Attorney General&#039;s hand with the public.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@2 Both Michael Mann and the University of Virginia are likely to have to respond to this situation from behind the shields of their attorneys.  I believe that this is the reason for the very terse statements from the University of Virginia so far.</p>
<p>I think that this is a test for the rest of us.  In my opinion, Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli is making a very politically calculated move, one which he is likely to believe will be quite popular with his constituency.  Science Blogs such as Deltoid are providing a very useful service in raising the alarm among those of us active in this region of the blogosphere.</p>
<p>But can we succeed in doing outreach?   Can information provided by Science bloggers be relayed outward and transformed into support?</p>
<p>Name calling, in my opinion, only strengthens the Virginia Attorney General&#8217;s hand with the public.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2010/05/02/reflections-on-unruly-democracy-from-bioephemera-jessica-palmer/#comment-57200</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 May 2010 20:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=8237#comment-57200</guid>
		<description>Looks like you&#039;ve made some forward progress on the issue. 

Would it be better just have moderated forums for discussing science rather than just commenting on blogs? Forums can have their own team of moderators. That would free-up your time for other things. One of the things I like with forums is being able to go back and fix things like typos and grammar errors. You typically can&#039;t do that in blog comments.

The unfortunate thing would having to check two websites instead of one; the blog and the forum postings, unless they could be integrated somehow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like you&#8217;ve made some forward progress on the issue. </p>
<p>Would it be better just have moderated forums for discussing science rather than just commenting on blogs? Forums can have their own team of moderators. That would free-up your time for other things. One of the things I like with forums is being able to go back and fix things like typos and grammar errors. You typically can&#8217;t do that in blog comments.</p>
<p>The unfortunate thing would having to check two websites instead of one; the blog and the forum postings, unless they could be integrated somehow.</p>
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		<title>By: GM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2010/05/02/reflections-on-unruly-democracy-from-bioephemera-jessica-palmer/#comment-57199</link>
		<dc:creator>GM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 May 2010 19:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=8237#comment-57199</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Democracy is about involving groups with different bargaining positions and interests and generating a workable compromise. Science is also about debate: arguing for your interpretation of the evidence, getting to the best consensus explanation, and then going out to fetch new data and do it all over again.&lt;/i&gt;

This and the whole tone of the interview (and reading about the topic many times before) leaves me with the impression that for you &quot;civility&quot; and not getting into a too heated debate are more important than actually finding out the truth. 

If democracy is about &quot;bargaining positions and interests and generating a workable compromise&quot; then democracy will almost never work, as it is not certain that the truth is &quot;in the middle &quot; or even that the &quot;middle&quot; it is in is the &quot;middle&quot; where the &quot;workable compromise&quot; is found. Which is indeed the case as we can see almost every day in the news.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Democracy is about involving groups with different bargaining positions and interests and generating a workable compromise. Science is also about debate: arguing for your interpretation of the evidence, getting to the best consensus explanation, and then going out to fetch new data and do it all over again.</i></p>
<p>This and the whole tone of the interview (and reading about the topic many times before) leaves me with the impression that for you &#8220;civility&#8221; and not getting into a too heated debate are more important than actually finding out the truth. </p>
<p>If democracy is about &#8220;bargaining positions and interests and generating a workable compromise&#8221; then democracy will almost never work, as it is not certain that the truth is &#8220;in the middle &#8221; or even that the &#8220;middle&#8221; it is in is the &#8220;middle&#8221; where the &#8220;workable compromise&#8221; is found. Which is indeed the case as we can see almost every day in the news.</p>
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		<title>By: Gaythia</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2010/05/02/reflections-on-unruly-democracy-from-bioephemera-jessica-palmer/#comment-57198</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaythia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 May 2010 18:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=8237#comment-57198</guid>
		<description>Chris, I would be interested in an expansion of what you mean by being in the “Sunsteinian” camp.  (Or do you accept this label?)   Some of what is described in &quot;Nudge&quot; is simply a recognition of how pre-existing frameworks and defaults affect decision-making and how those conditions can be changed to encourage more favorable outcomes.   In many cases, these are outcomes that the participants themselves would have agree to, had they made the effort to think about it.     But a nudge can become a push.  I think that we need to acknowledge &quot;Choice Architecture&quot; or &quot;Framing&quot; as something that is always present and be aware of it as something that is subject to abuse.

Ideally, I&#039;d like to include Darlene Cavalier and Richard Sclove in this hypothetical discussion.  Initially, my concern was that the Participatory Technology Assessment Network (as described in a previous post) would be over-run by special interest groups.   This was satisfied by a description the process of participant selection criteria and facilitation.  But then, my thoughts turned to my frustration with the times I have served on advisory groups where the facilitators seemed to be driving towards some predetermined point of &quot;consensus&quot;.  Participants whose  time to devote to the topic,whose background in the field, and whose access to the necessary data,  may be more limited can be  cut out of the real process or left to believe that the process itself was a farce.

How do we work to find the balance between facilitation, establishing norms of civility, combating misinformation, and too much control?

As you indicate above, attempting to optimize these communication processes will be quite a bit of work, but that doesn&#039;t mean we should stop trying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, I would be interested in an expansion of what you mean by being in the “Sunsteinian” camp.  (Or do you accept this label?)   Some of what is described in &#8220;Nudge&#8221; is simply a recognition of how pre-existing frameworks and defaults affect decision-making and how those conditions can be changed to encourage more favorable outcomes.   In many cases, these are outcomes that the participants themselves would have agree to, had they made the effort to think about it.     But a nudge can become a push.  I think that we need to acknowledge &#8220;Choice Architecture&#8221; or &#8220;Framing&#8221; as something that is always present and be aware of it as something that is subject to abuse.</p>
<p>Ideally, I&#8217;d like to include Darlene Cavalier and Richard Sclove in this hypothetical discussion.  Initially, my concern was that the Participatory Technology Assessment Network (as described in a previous post) would be over-run by special interest groups.   This was satisfied by a description the process of participant selection criteria and facilitation.  But then, my thoughts turned to my frustration with the times I have served on advisory groups where the facilitators seemed to be driving towards some predetermined point of &#8220;consensus&#8221;.  Participants whose  time to devote to the topic,whose background in the field, and whose access to the necessary data,  may be more limited can be  cut out of the real process or left to believe that the process itself was a farce.</p>
<p>How do we work to find the balance between facilitation, establishing norms of civility, combating misinformation, and too much control?</p>
<p>As you indicate above, attempting to optimize these communication processes will be quite a bit of work, but that doesn&#8217;t mean we should stop trying.</p>
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		<title>By: SLC</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2010/05/02/reflections-on-unruly-democracy-from-bioephemera-jessica-palmer/#comment-57197</link>
		<dc:creator>SLC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 May 2010 18:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=8237#comment-57197</guid>
		<description>Speaking of civility, would Mr. Mooney or MS. Kirshenbaum advise Michael Mann to be civil to Virginia Attorney General Ken the kook Cuccinelli?

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/05/the_republican_war_on_science.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of civility, would Mr. Mooney or MS. Kirshenbaum advise Michael Mann to be civil to Virginia Attorney General Ken the kook Cuccinelli?</p>
<p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/05/the_republican_war_on_science.php" rel="nofollow">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/05/the_republican_war_on_science.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: Isis the Scientist</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2010/05/02/reflections-on-unruly-democracy-from-bioephemera-jessica-palmer/#comment-57195</link>
		<dc:creator>Isis the Scientist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 May 2010 15:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=8237#comment-57195</guid>
		<description>Fantastic work, Chris.  It was a very intriguing experience and I enjoyed participating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fantastic work, Chris.  It was a very intriguing experience and I enjoyed participating.</p>
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