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	<title>Comments on: The Barry Kosmin Show&#8211;A Rundown</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/01/03/the-barry-kosmin-show-a-rundown/</link>
	<description>Where science collides with life, slams into culture, crashes with politics, and gets totaled.</description>
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		<title>By: Jon Awbrey</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/01/03/the-barry-kosmin-show-a-rundown/#comment-87205</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Awbrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2011 16:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=14762#comment-87205</guid>
		<description>Of critical importance toward understanding the relation between capitalism, consumerism, and the other great world religions on the contemporary scene would be the work of Max Weber, beginning with his groundbreaking study, “The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism”.

Here are a couple of online resources:

* http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/WEBER/cover.html
* http://www.faculty.rsu.edu/~felwell/Theorists/Weber/Whome.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of critical importance toward understanding the relation between capitalism, consumerism, and the other great world religions on the contemporary scene would be the work of Max Weber, beginning with his groundbreaking study, “The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism”.</p>
<p>Here are a couple of online resources:</p>
<p>* <a href="http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/WEBER/cover.html" rel="nofollow">http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/WEBER/cover.html</a><br />
* <a href="http://www.faculty.rsu.edu/~felwell/Theorists/Weber/Whome.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.faculty.rsu.edu/~felwell/Theorists/Weber/Whome.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nullius in Verba</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/01/03/the-barry-kosmin-show-a-rundown/#comment-87197</link>
		<dc:creator>Nullius in Verba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 23:05:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=14762#comment-87197</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m unclear here whether &quot;consumerist&quot; is intended in the original sense (advocating for consumer rather than producer rights) or the more modern sense (encouraging or allowing people to want more things than is strictly necessary). I&#039;m guessing the latter.

In that case, it&#039;s probably not true that a secular society is consumerist, but it may be true that a consumerist society is more inclined to secularism, should it happen that the most common religions in the society (in their contemporary practice) are seen as somehow anti-consumerist. (Given the variety of religious beliefs, this is not a given.)

Secularism as such says nothing about economic beliefs - secularism is simply the separation of the state from religion, and as the reasons for separating them are in the main not economic, the secular can hold economic beliefs across the spectrum. One can be both religious and secular; (&quot;Render unto Caesar...&quot; is a secular principle). But when a religion includes beliefs about economics (as Christianity does) then the two are connected. Economic truths can rule out religious ones, or vice versa.

Secularism &lt;i&gt;allows&lt;/i&gt; consumerism, but does not thereby &lt;i&gt;cause&lt;/i&gt; it.

As it happens, I think the term &quot;consumerist&quot; is being mis-used here - the actual word that should have been used was &quot;rich&quot;. It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. (I always have mental pictures of a grinning George Soros turning up at the Pearly Gates with a worried looking camel, a giant food blender, and a large hypodermic syringe...) Thus, a rich society full of rich people would probably not hold those beliefs (unless they were very hypocritical), and would therefore not be happy to have a religion-controlled state able to pass sumptuary laws. Moreover, a rich society would have a better understanding of economics than they did two millennia ago, and would probably be more aware of the benefits of wealth and consumerism in relieving poverty and suffering justly. Religious opinions on economics would perhaps, therefore, seem less credible or moral to a large portion of the population.

That doesn&#039;t, in any way, mean that either the secular or the non-religious are therefore either wealthy or consumerist. The opposite has several times been the case in history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m unclear here whether &#8220;consumerist&#8221; is intended in the original sense (advocating for consumer rather than producer rights) or the more modern sense (encouraging or allowing people to want more things than is strictly necessary). I&#8217;m guessing the latter.</p>
<p>In that case, it&#8217;s probably not true that a secular society is consumerist, but it may be true that a consumerist society is more inclined to secularism, should it happen that the most common religions in the society (in their contemporary practice) are seen as somehow anti-consumerist. (Given the variety of religious beliefs, this is not a given.)</p>
<p>Secularism as such says nothing about economic beliefs &#8211; secularism is simply the separation of the state from religion, and as the reasons for separating them are in the main not economic, the secular can hold economic beliefs across the spectrum. One can be both religious and secular; (&#8220;Render unto Caesar&#8230;&#8221; is a secular principle). But when a religion includes beliefs about economics (as Christianity does) then the two are connected. Economic truths can rule out religious ones, or vice versa.</p>
<p>Secularism <i>allows</i> consumerism, but does not thereby <i>cause</i> it.</p>
<p>As it happens, I think the term &#8220;consumerist&#8221; is being mis-used here &#8211; the actual word that should have been used was &#8220;rich&#8221;. It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. (I always have mental pictures of a grinning George Soros turning up at the Pearly Gates with a worried looking camel, a giant food blender, and a large hypodermic syringe&#8230;) Thus, a rich society full of rich people would probably not hold those beliefs (unless they were very hypocritical), and would therefore not be happy to have a religion-controlled state able to pass sumptuary laws. Moreover, a rich society would have a better understanding of economics than they did two millennia ago, and would probably be more aware of the benefits of wealth and consumerism in relieving poverty and suffering justly. Religious opinions on economics would perhaps, therefore, seem less credible or moral to a large portion of the population.</p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t, in any way, mean that either the secular or the non-religious are therefore either wealthy or consumerist. The opposite has several times been the case in history.</p>
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		<title>By: Wes Rolley</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/01/03/the-barry-kosmin-show-a-rundown/#comment-87195</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes Rolley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 20:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=14762#comment-87195</guid>
		<description>I wish you had explored more the rationale for why a secular culture is consumerist. I am a none who is definitely NOT consumerist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish you had explored more the rationale for why a secular culture is consumerist. I am a none who is definitely NOT consumerist.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Awbrey</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/01/03/the-barry-kosmin-show-a-rundown/#comment-87193</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Awbrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 20:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=14762#comment-87193</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure that you have a scientific definition of “religiosity” here, as distinguished from a popular notion that is based on purely conventional and historical associations.  How would you move from a “folk” definition to one that is based on operational criteria?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that you have a scientific definition of “religiosity” here, as distinguished from a popular notion that is based on purely conventional and historical associations.  How would you move from a “folk” definition to one that is based on operational criteria?</p>
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