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	<title>Comments on: The Pluto Wars Continue</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/02/04/the-pluto-wars-continue/</link>
	<description>Where science collides with life, slams into culture, crashes with politics, and gets totaled.</description>
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		<title>By: Jinchi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/02/04/the-pluto-wars-continue/#comment-87966</link>
		<dc:creator>Jinchi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Feb 2011 15:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=15736#comment-87966</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;what would you call a spheroid object somewhere between the mass of Ceres and 10 Jupiters floating out in deep space, not orbiting anything other than perhaps the Galactic SMBH?&lt;/i&gt;

They&#039;re called &quot;rogue planets&quot;.

Also, I&#039;m not sure why you want a distinction between a moon and a planet. &quot;Moon&quot; is a dynamical term, it tells you that one object is gravitationally bound to another. It doesn&#039;t tell you anything about the mass, size, density or composition. Known moons range in size from fractions of a kilometer to over 2600 km, and the term would also apply to a body like Neptune in orbit around a more massive planet. Most people would call that a double-planet system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>what would you call a spheroid object somewhere between the mass of Ceres and 10 Jupiters floating out in deep space, not orbiting anything other than perhaps the Galactic SMBH?</i></p>
<p>They&#8217;re called &#8220;rogue planets&#8221;.</p>
<p>Also, I&#8217;m not sure why you want a distinction between a moon and a planet. &#8220;Moon&#8221; is a dynamical term, it tells you that one object is gravitationally bound to another. It doesn&#8217;t tell you anything about the mass, size, density or composition. Known moons range in size from fractions of a kilometer to over 2600 km, and the term would also apply to a body like Neptune in orbit around a more massive planet. Most people would call that a double-planet system.</p>
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		<title>By: ChH</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/02/04/the-pluto-wars-continue/#comment-87964</link>
		<dc:creator>ChH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Feb 2011 06:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=15736#comment-87964</guid>
		<description>If a spheroid is orbiting a planet, it&#039;s a moon, not a planet.

I like the &quot;dominate its orbit&quot; approach, but that&#039;s just my opinion - I can see the value of the original IAU definition, even if Ceres &amp; six or eight TNOs end up being planets (again).

This brings up a topic I haven&#039;t heard addressed yet - what would you call a spheroid object somewhere between the mass of Ceres and 10 Jupiters floating out in deep space, not orbiting anything other than perhaps the Galactic SMBH?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If a spheroid is orbiting a planet, it&#8217;s a moon, not a planet.</p>
<p>I like the &#8220;dominate its orbit&#8221; approach, but that&#8217;s just my opinion &#8211; I can see the value of the original IAU definition, even if Ceres &amp; six or eight TNOs end up being planets (again).</p>
<p>This brings up a topic I haven&#8217;t heard addressed yet &#8211; what would you call a spheroid object somewhere between the mass of Ceres and 10 Jupiters floating out in deep space, not orbiting anything other than perhaps the Galactic SMBH?</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Too</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/02/04/the-pluto-wars-continue/#comment-87959</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Too</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Feb 2011 23:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=15736#comment-87959</guid>
		<description>I have a modest proposal.  Any object that is spheroid due to it&#039;s own gravity, and is &lt;i&gt;not a star&lt;/i&gt;, is a planet.

Clearing it&#039;s orbit, dominating it&#039;s orbit, that all seems kinda vague, you know?

My definition is simple and that&#039;s it&#039;s appeal.  Yes, it would result in most moons and certain asteriods being declared planets.  I say that&#039;s an acceptable outcome.

The one problem I see is that any liquid or gaseous body, no matter how small, could be round and therefore declared a planet.  Maybe this isn&#039;t so simple after all!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a modest proposal.  Any object that is spheroid due to it&#8217;s own gravity, and is <i>not a star</i>, is a planet.</p>
<p>Clearing it&#8217;s orbit, dominating it&#8217;s orbit, that all seems kinda vague, you know?</p>
<p>My definition is simple and that&#8217;s it&#8217;s appeal.  Yes, it would result in most moons and certain asteriods being declared planets.  I say that&#8217;s an acceptable outcome.</p>
<p>The one problem I see is that any liquid or gaseous body, no matter how small, could be round and therefore declared a planet.  Maybe this isn&#8217;t so simple after all!</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/02/04/the-pluto-wars-continue/#comment-87955</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Feb 2011 22:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=15736#comment-87955</guid>
		<description>I agree with Jinchi, we shouldn&#039;t let the IAU or anyone else redefine &quot;planet.&quot;  That&#039;s why to me the seven planets will always be the Moon, Mercury, Venus, the Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.  I think of Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto as &quot;bodies outside the sphere of fixed stars&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Jinchi, we shouldn&#8217;t let the IAU or anyone else redefine &#8220;planet.&#8221;  That&#8217;s why to me the seven planets will always be the Moon, Mercury, Venus, the Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.  I think of Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto as &#8220;bodies outside the sphere of fixed stars&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jinchi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/02/04/the-pluto-wars-continue/#comment-87951</link>
		<dc:creator>Jinchi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Feb 2011 15:12:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=15736#comment-87951</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I said what I did about “dominating it’s neighborhood” because “clearing” it is just stupid&lt;/i&gt;

Right. My problem with the IAU definition is that it is poorly drafted. Scientific definitions should be scientifically rigorous. I don&#039;t particularly care if scientists classify Pluto as a planet, a dwarf planet or a pluton. Pluto is obviously a completely different object than Jupiter and any scientific classification should acknowledge that, just as we differentiate terrestrial planets from gas giants. 

&lt;i&gt;Obviously they also should have said “orbits a star” rather than “the sun”.&lt;/i&gt;

They said &quot;sun&quot; deliberately. Hundreds of planets had already been discovered by scientists in 2006, and the people in the room voting on the definition knew that. 

Here was the original draft proposal: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;A planet is a celestial body that (a) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and (b) is in orbit around a star, and is neither a star nor a satellite of a planet.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Notice that in this version, planets can be found around any star in the universe, but Pluto remains a planet. They added &quot;has cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit&quot; specifically to exclude Pluto and the other recently discovered small worlds. But that would have relegated many of the recently discovered Jupiter-sized worlds around other stars to &quot;dwarf planet&quot; status because they were in fairly exotic orbits.

&lt;i&gt;Jupiter would have to be moved REALLY far out to not dominate its orbit.&lt;/i&gt;

Take a look at the dimensions of the Oort cloud. Can an object of any size in the Oort cloud be a planet under the official definition? Why not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I said what I did about “dominating it’s neighborhood” because “clearing” it is just stupid</i></p>
<p>Right. My problem with the IAU definition is that it is poorly drafted. Scientific definitions should be scientifically rigorous. I don&#8217;t particularly care if scientists classify Pluto as a planet, a dwarf planet or a pluton. Pluto is obviously a completely different object than Jupiter and any scientific classification should acknowledge that, just as we differentiate terrestrial planets from gas giants. </p>
<p><i>Obviously they also should have said “orbits a star” rather than “the sun”.</i></p>
<p>They said &#8220;sun&#8221; deliberately. Hundreds of planets had already been discovered by scientists in 2006, and the people in the room voting on the definition knew that. </p>
<p>Here was the original draft proposal: </p>
<blockquote><p>A planet is a celestial body that (a) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and (b) is in orbit around a star, and is neither a star nor a satellite of a planet.</p></blockquote>
<p>Notice that in this version, planets can be found around any star in the universe, but Pluto remains a planet. They added &#8220;has cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit&#8221; specifically to exclude Pluto and the other recently discovered small worlds. But that would have relegated many of the recently discovered Jupiter-sized worlds around other stars to &#8220;dwarf planet&#8221; status because they were in fairly exotic orbits.</p>
<p><i>Jupiter would have to be moved REALLY far out to not dominate its orbit.</i></p>
<p>Take a look at the dimensions of the Oort cloud. Can an object of any size in the Oort cloud be a planet under the official definition? Why not?</p>
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		<title>By: ChH</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/02/04/the-pluto-wars-continue/#comment-87947</link>
		<dc:creator>ChH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Feb 2011 05:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=15736#comment-87947</guid>
		<description>I said what I did about &quot;dominating it&#039;s neighborhood&quot; because &quot;clearing&quot; it is just stupid - the largest planets have a host of trojans &amp; other objects in their orbital paths. Obviously they also should have said &quot;orbits a star&quot; rather than &quot;the sun&quot;. I really wonder how such supposedly smart people decided on those particular phrases. I just agree with them that Pluto shouldn&#039;t make the cut as a planet.

Earth&#039;s orbit is affected by Jupiter, but is dominated by Earth - see quasi-satellites such as 3753 Cruithne.

Jupiter would have to be moved REALLY far out to not dominate its orbit.  Neptune, six times further out than jupiter and only 1/20th its mass, completely dominates its orbit, complete with trojans in its Lagrange points, and objects such as Pluto in orbital resonance.

And yes - if the Earth were in orbit around Jupiter, it would be a moon, not a planet. That&#039;s why &quot;orbits a star&quot; and &quot;dominates its orbit&quot; should be in the definition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I said what I did about &#8220;dominating it&#8217;s neighborhood&#8221; because &#8220;clearing&#8221; it is just stupid &#8211; the largest planets have a host of trojans &amp; other objects in their orbital paths. Obviously they also should have said &#8220;orbits a star&#8221; rather than &#8220;the sun&#8221;. I really wonder how such supposedly smart people decided on those particular phrases. I just agree with them that Pluto shouldn&#8217;t make the cut as a planet.</p>
<p>Earth&#8217;s orbit is affected by Jupiter, but is dominated by Earth &#8211; see quasi-satellites such as 3753 Cruithne.</p>
<p>Jupiter would have to be moved REALLY far out to not dominate its orbit.  Neptune, six times further out than jupiter and only 1/20th its mass, completely dominates its orbit, complete with trojans in its Lagrange points, and objects such as Pluto in orbital resonance.</p>
<p>And yes &#8211; if the Earth were in orbit around Jupiter, it would be a moon, not a planet. That&#8217;s why &#8220;orbits a star&#8221; and &#8220;dominates its orbit&#8221; should be in the definition.</p>
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		<title>By: Jinchi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/02/04/the-pluto-wars-continue/#comment-87945</link>
		<dc:creator>Jinchi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2011 23:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=15736#comment-87945</guid>
		<description>Matt B., here is the definition of a planet according to the IAU:

&lt;blockquote&gt;(1) A &quot;planet&quot; [1] is a celestial body that (a) is in orbit around the Sun, (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and (c) has cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
(http://www.iau.org/public_press/news/detail/iau0603/)


Notice that &quot;dominating the orbit&quot; is ChH&#039;s version, not the official one. Notice also that the official definition pretty much ensures that there will never be more than 8 planets in the universe. Those 1235 potential planets Chris mentions above? None of them are planets according to the official definition. What if we discover an Earth-sized object in the Kuiper belt? Also not a planet, since it will almost certainly not have had time to &quot;clear the neighborhood&quot; around it&#039;s orbit. Even a body the size of Jupiter would be classified a &quot;dwarf planet&quot; under the current definition if it&#039;s orbit were far enough from the Sun.

In fact it&#039;s not obvious that Earth fits the current definition. Earth&#039;s current orbit has been shaped by  it&#039;s interaction with Jupiter. Every other object near Earth&#039;s orbit would have been shaped by Jupiter as well. Any object whose orbit was too eccentric would have been tossed out of the system, &lt;i&gt;by Jupiter&lt;/i&gt;. So which planet &quot;cleared the neighborhood&quot;?

So what is the scientific value of the current definition? It was almost certainly written to explicitly exclude Pluto. In fact it seems to have no other purpose at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt B., here is the definition of a planet according to the IAU:</p>
<blockquote><p>(1) A &#8220;planet&#8221; [1] is a celestial body that (a) is in orbit around the Sun, (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and (c) has cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit.</p></blockquote>
<p>(<a href="http://www.iau.org/public_press/news/detail/iau0603/" rel="nofollow">http://www.iau.org/public_press/news/detail/iau0603/</a>)</p>
<p>Notice that &#8220;dominating the orbit&#8221; is ChH&#8217;s version, not the official one. Notice also that the official definition pretty much ensures that there will never be more than 8 planets in the universe. Those 1235 potential planets Chris mentions above? None of them are planets according to the official definition. What if we discover an Earth-sized object in the Kuiper belt? Also not a planet, since it will almost certainly not have had time to &#8220;clear the neighborhood&#8221; around it&#8217;s orbit. Even a body the size of Jupiter would be classified a &#8220;dwarf planet&#8221; under the current definition if it&#8217;s orbit were far enough from the Sun.</p>
<p>In fact it&#8217;s not obvious that Earth fits the current definition. Earth&#8217;s current orbit has been shaped by  it&#8217;s interaction with Jupiter. Every other object near Earth&#8217;s orbit would have been shaped by Jupiter as well. Any object whose orbit was too eccentric would have been tossed out of the system, <i>by Jupiter</i>. So which planet &#8220;cleared the neighborhood&#8221;?</p>
<p>So what is the scientific value of the current definition? It was almost certainly written to explicitly exclude Pluto. In fact it seems to have no other purpose at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Ahcuah</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/02/04/the-pluto-wars-continue/#comment-87944</link>
		<dc:creator>Ahcuah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2011 23:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=15736#comment-87944</guid>
		<description>Talking about definitions, when do we decide that Europe is no longer a continent, because it is attached to Asia (ditto Africa)?

Words mean what we want them to mean, and by golly we can include Pluto when we say &quot;planet&quot; if we want to. It&#039;s not as if doing so would lead to any confusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Talking about definitions, when do we decide that Europe is no longer a continent, because it is attached to Asia (ditto Africa)?</p>
<p>Words mean what we want them to mean, and by golly we can include Pluto when we say &#8220;planet&#8221; if we want to. It&#8217;s not as if doing so would lead to any confusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt B.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/02/04/the-pluto-wars-continue/#comment-87940</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2011 21:25:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=15736#comment-87940</guid>
		<description>Jinchi, the &quot;dominating the orbit&quot; thing is about whether the object dominates the orbit it&#039;s in, not whether it would dominate some other orbit. That would lead to a definition of &quot;planet&quot; based entirely on mass (and whether it orbits a star).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jinchi, the &#8220;dominating the orbit&#8221; thing is about whether the object dominates the orbit it&#8217;s in, not whether it would dominate some other orbit. That would lead to a definition of &#8220;planet&#8221; based entirely on mass (and whether it orbits a star).</p>
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		<title>By: Matt B.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/02/04/the-pluto-wars-continue/#comment-87939</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2011 21:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=15736#comment-87939</guid>
		<description>Whose favorite planet was Pluto? Mine&#039;s Earth. It&#039;s all cozy and warm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whose favorite planet was Pluto? Mine&#8217;s Earth. It&#8217;s all cozy and warm.</p>
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