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	<title>Comments on: The Nisbet Report on Our Climate Failures, Part I</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/04/19/the-nisbet-report-on-our-climate-failures-part-i/</link>
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		<title>By: Beyond the Climate Blame Game - NYTimes.com</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/04/19/the-nisbet-report-on-our-climate-failures-part-i/#comment-52571</link>
		<dc:creator>Beyond the Climate Blame Game - NYTimes.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2011 18:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=17368#comment-52571</guid>
		<description>[...] industry tactics in the climate fight but also a collaborator with Nisbet in the past in the past, criticized the new report. But his post prompted a valuable back-and-forth between the two men, who have known each other [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] industry tactics in the climate fight but also a collaborator with Nisbet in the past in the past, criticized the new report. But his post prompted a valuable back-and-forth between the two men, who have known each other [...] </p>
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		<title>By: TTT</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/04/19/the-nisbet-report-on-our-climate-failures-part-i/#comment-52570</link>
		<dc:creator>TTT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=17368#comment-52570</guid>
		<description>So through the magic of Framing and other various rhetorical / conceptual categorization mechanisms Nisbet made up, environmentalists spent more money even though they spent less money, and he didn&#039;t say they spent more money even though he did.

This is lower than Lomborg.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So through the magic of Framing and other various rhetorical / conceptual categorization mechanisms Nisbet made up, environmentalists spent more money even though they spent less money, and he didn&#8217;t say they spent more money even though he did.</p>
<p>This is lower than Lomborg.</p>
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		<title>By: NewYorkJ</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/04/19/the-nisbet-report-on-our-climate-failures-part-i/#comment-52569</link>
		<dc:creator>NewYorkJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Apr 2011 00:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=17368#comment-52569</guid>
		<description>The mere identification of AAAS members as being less conservative, with much fewer identifying with the Republican party isn&#039;t in itself wrong.  It&#039;s the implication that this necessarily biases their views, causes them to reach incorrect conclusions, or to intimidate other &quot;moderates&quot; within their ranks from expressing opinions on policy proposals or intolerance of critique of &quot;admired political leaders&quot; (if that last parts sounds particularly ridiculous, read the last paragraph of Nisbet&#039;s conclusion).  Scientists are characterized as forming their views at the Church of Gore and protecting their admired political leaders.

There doesn&#039;t seem to be any consideration for what leads scientists away from the Republican party.  Perhaps years of their leaders denying evolution, denying health effects of certain chemicals, outright denial of climate science, calling their work a &quot;hoax&quot;, or attacking their research and in some cases, their colleagues is what leads scientists in another direction.  According to Nisbet, the evidence that scientists identify less with Republicans or conservatives is not evidence that Republicans are at fault, but evidence that scientists are heavily biased and therefore must reach false conclusions (some of the &quot;correct&quot; conclusions identified by Nisbet are rather dubious, as noted here and elsewhere).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The mere identification of AAAS members as being less conservative, with much fewer identifying with the Republican party isn&#8217;t in itself wrong.  It&#8217;s the implication that this necessarily biases their views, causes them to reach incorrect conclusions, or to intimidate other &#8220;moderates&#8221; within their ranks from expressing opinions on policy proposals or intolerance of critique of &#8220;admired political leaders&#8221; (if that last parts sounds particularly ridiculous, read the last paragraph of Nisbet&#8217;s conclusion).  Scientists are characterized as forming their views at the Church of Gore and protecting their admired political leaders.</p>
<p>There doesn&#8217;t seem to be any consideration for what leads scientists away from the Republican party.  Perhaps years of their leaders denying evolution, denying health effects of certain chemicals, outright denial of climate science, calling their work a &#8220;hoax&#8221;, or attacking their research and in some cases, their colleagues is what leads scientists in another direction.  According to Nisbet, the evidence that scientists identify less with Republicans or conservatives is not evidence that Republicans are at fault, but evidence that scientists are heavily biased and therefore must reach false conclusions (some of the &#8220;correct&#8221; conclusions identified by Nisbet are rather dubious, as noted here and elsewhere).</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Mooney</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/04/19/the-nisbet-report-on-our-climate-failures-part-i/#comment-52568</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Mooney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2011 23:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=17368#comment-52568</guid>
		<description>Right, Matt, then why does everyone think the environmental groups spent more money, as quoted above? That has nothing to do with your conscious framing of the report, does it? They&#039;re just delusional--they&#039;ve just made it up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, Matt, then why does everyone think the environmental groups spent more money, as quoted above? That has nothing to do with your conscious framing of the report, does it? They&#8217;re just delusional&#8211;they&#8217;ve just made it up?</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Nisbet</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/04/19/the-nisbet-report-on-our-climate-failures-part-i/#comment-52567</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Nisbet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2011 22:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=17368#comment-52567</guid>
		<description>I encourage everyone to read the section on lobbying.

http://climateshiftproject.org/report/climate-shift-clear-vision-for-the-next-decade-of-public-debate/#spending-on-lobbying

Here&#039;s how that section concludes:

With the exception of the figures for the environmental groups, this comparison of lobbying expenditures across coalitions should not be interpreted as reflecting the actual amounts spent on cap and trade legislation.  Instead, in the aggregate, these totals are representative of the capacity for power and influence that each side could apply in 2009.  Through their work building coalitions and alliances, the environmental groups were able to forge a network of organizations that spent a combined $229 million on lobbying across all issues.  In comparison, the network of prominent opponents of cap and trade legislation spent $272 million lobbying across all issues.  These figures represent a dramatically reduced power difference compared with past legislative debates over climate change.

---
NATURE editorializes today that the Climate Shift report &quot;is a must read for anyone remotely interested in the climate change debate.&quot;

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v472/n7343/full/472260a.html

I encourage everyone to go beyond the blog debate and engage with the research and ideas found in the report.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I encourage everyone to read the section on lobbying.</p>
<p><a href="http://climateshiftproject.org/report/climate-shift-clear-vision-for-the-next-decade-of-public-debate/#spending-on-lobbying" rel="nofollow">http://climateshiftproject.org/report/climate-shift-clear-vision-for-the-next-decade-of-public-debate/#spending-on-lobbying</a></p>
<p>Here&#8217;s how that section concludes:</p>
<p>With the exception of the figures for the environmental groups, this comparison of lobbying expenditures across coalitions should not be interpreted as reflecting the actual amounts spent on cap and trade legislation.  Instead, in the aggregate, these totals are representative of the capacity for power and influence that each side could apply in 2009.  Through their work building coalitions and alliances, the environmental groups were able to forge a network of organizations that spent a combined $229 million on lobbying across all issues.  In comparison, the network of prominent opponents of cap and trade legislation spent $272 million lobbying across all issues.  These figures represent a dramatically reduced power difference compared with past legislative debates over climate change.</p>
<p>&#8212;<br />
NATURE editorializes today that the Climate Shift report &#8220;is a must read for anyone remotely interested in the climate change debate.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v472/n7343/full/472260a.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v472/n7343/full/472260a.html</a></p>
<p>I encourage everyone to go beyond the blog debate and engage with the research and ideas found in the report.</p>
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		<title>By: AL</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/04/19/the-nisbet-report-on-our-climate-failures-part-i/#comment-52566</link>
		<dc:creator>AL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:38:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=17368#comment-52566</guid>
		<description>Nisbet&#039;s original response on Romm&#039;s first pass at the financial claim is a non-argument: &quot;The financial analysis is thorough, deep and complex. It has been twisted and skewed by Romm.&quot;  What exactly has been twisted and skewed?  And what about the exact same criticism that has been leveled at Nisbet my one of his former reviewers, Robert Brulle?  While Nisbet says that he took those criticisms into account there is, as yet, no answer from Nisbet of the exact criticisms of the report that Brulle has made.

The key thing that Nisbet has not yet addressed is how he could possibly count the *entire* lobbying budget of BP and other industry members of USCAP in the pro-cap and trade column.  On his press call yesterday rolling out the report Nisbet changed his tone a bit and said that his point was only to represent the amount &quot;available&quot; on each side to lobby on the climate bill.  But use such figures in a tally of the money spent on both sides of the legislative fight  is nonsense on stilts.  One might look at my total yearly income, and my commitment to passing some kind of climate legislation, and then argue that my total income should count in the sum of total money available to the environmental movement to pass climate legislation.  This would of course be ridiculous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nisbet&#8217;s original response on Romm&#8217;s first pass at the financial claim is a non-argument: &#8220;The financial analysis is thorough, deep and complex. It has been twisted and skewed by Romm.&#8221;  What exactly has been twisted and skewed?  And what about the exact same criticism that has been leveled at Nisbet my one of his former reviewers, Robert Brulle?  While Nisbet says that he took those criticisms into account there is, as yet, no answer from Nisbet of the exact criticisms of the report that Brulle has made.</p>
<p>The key thing that Nisbet has not yet addressed is how he could possibly count the *entire* lobbying budget of BP and other industry members of USCAP in the pro-cap and trade column.  On his press call yesterday rolling out the report Nisbet changed his tone a bit and said that his point was only to represent the amount &#8220;available&#8221; on each side to lobby on the climate bill.  But use such figures in a tally of the money spent on both sides of the legislative fight  is nonsense on stilts.  One might look at my total yearly income, and my commitment to passing some kind of climate legislation, and then argue that my total income should count in the sum of total money available to the environmental movement to pass climate legislation.  This would of course be ridiculous.</p>
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		<title>By: NikFromNYC</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/04/19/the-nisbet-report-on-our-climate-failures-part-i/#comment-52565</link>
		<dc:creator>NikFromNYC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:07:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=17368#comment-52565</guid>
		<description>Actual data does exist that establishes a historical warming trend as being utterly natural since there is NO TREND CHANGE WHATSOEVER in the modern era in ACTUAL THERMOMETER RECORDS that carry back for centuries.

http://i49.tinypic.com/rc93fa.jpg

Not even the global average shows a trend change before/after the huge postwar burst of CO2 output:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2mpg0tz.jpg

Logic alone dictates that history cannot be a hockey stick if actual thermometer records are immune to forming little hockey sticks themselves. And if history is not a hockey stick, temperature-wise, then claims that recent warming is alarming fail to even pass the laugh test.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actual data does exist that establishes a historical warming trend as being utterly natural since there is NO TREND CHANGE WHATSOEVER in the modern era in ACTUAL THERMOMETER RECORDS that carry back for centuries.</p>
<p><a href="http://i49.tinypic.com/rc93fa.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://i49.tinypic.com/rc93fa.jpg</a></p>
<p>Not even the global average shows a trend change before/after the huge postwar burst of CO2 output:</p>
<p><a href="http://i49.tinypic.com/2mpg0tz.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://i49.tinypic.com/2mpg0tz.jpg</a></p>
<p>Logic alone dictates that history cannot be a hockey stick if actual thermometer records are immune to forming little hockey sticks themselves. And if history is not a hockey stick, temperature-wise, then claims that recent warming is alarming fail to even pass the laugh test.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Mooney</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/04/19/the-nisbet-report-on-our-climate-failures-part-i/#comment-52564</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Mooney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=17368#comment-52564</guid>
		<description>Marc Morano&#039;s headline on this report &quot;Environmental groups spent more money on climate-change than &#039;skeptical right-wing groups and industry&#039;
http://www.climatedepot.com/

Nature&#039;s report: &quot;Environmental groups and their supporters spend more money on climate-change and clean-energy activities and campaigns than sceptical right-wing groups and their industry supporters, according to a report by a US social scientist, who questions some of the most common reasons given for US political inaction on global warming.&quot;
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110419/full/news.2011.248.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc Morano&#8217;s headline on this report &#8220;Environmental groups spent more money on climate-change than &#8216;skeptical right-wing groups and industry&#8217;<br />
<a href="http://www.climatedepot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.climatedepot.com/</a></p>
<p>Nature&#8217;s report: &#8220;Environmental groups and their supporters spend more money on climate-change and clean-energy activities and campaigns than sceptical right-wing groups and their industry supporters, according to a report by a US social scientist, who questions some of the most common reasons given for US political inaction on global warming.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110419/full/news.2011.248.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110419/full/news.2011.248.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: kramer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/04/19/the-nisbet-report-on-our-climate-failures-part-i/#comment-52563</link>
		<dc:creator>kramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2011 03:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=17368#comment-52563</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not surprised that the AAAS has very few Republicans. This stat reminds me of a book I read called &quot;Rio: Reshaping the International Order - A Report to the Club of Rome&quot; with Jan Timbergen, a Nobel Winning economist as the book&#039;s coordinator where he writes:

&quot;In many branches of science there are radical movements. Increasingly, both in the rich and poor worlds, scientists are involved in active advocacy which they see as an intellectual and ethical duty. &quot;

Page 133</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not surprised that the AAAS has very few Republicans. This stat reminds me of a book I read called &#8220;Rio: Reshaping the International Order &#8211; A Report to the Club of Rome&#8221; with Jan Timbergen, a Nobel Winning economist as the book&#8217;s coordinator where he writes:</p>
<p>&#8220;In many branches of science there are radical movements. Increasingly, both in the rich and poor worlds, scientists are involved in active advocacy which they see as an intellectual and ethical duty. &#8221;</p>
<p>Page 133</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Mooney</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/04/19/the-nisbet-report-on-our-climate-failures-part-i/#comment-52562</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Mooney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Apr 2011 01:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=17368#comment-52562</guid>
		<description>Note: Romm has further reanalyzed the data on environmental group vs industry largesse
http://climateprogress.org/2011/04/19/climate-shift-data-reanalysis/.

I personally think ideology is more important than money in explaining the resistance to climate progress or climate legislation--but Romm&#039;s analysis certainly calls into question Nisbet&#039;s apparent claim that enviros are now outspending their opponents. (I say &quot;apparent&quot; because the strength of the claim seems to be stated differently by Nisbet at different times; see here http://climateprogress.org/2011/04/19/brulle-climate-shift-nisbet/).

I&#039;m most taken aback, though, by Nisbet&#039;s depiction of AAAS members:

&quot;AAAS members are as ideologically like-minded as evangelical church members and substantially more partisan.  Only black church members exhibit a stronger partisan lean than AAAS members and only Fox News viewers, Mormon Church members and Tea Party members exhibit a stronger ideological lean.&quot;

But wait, surely &quot;ideological&quot; is a technical term here....right? And surely that&#039;s how the report will be read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note: Romm has further reanalyzed the data on environmental group vs industry largesse<br />
<a href="http://climateprogress.org/2011/04/19/climate-shift-data-reanalysis/" rel="nofollow">http://climateprogress.org/2011/04/19/climate-shift-data-reanalysis/</a>.</p>
<p>I personally think ideology is more important than money in explaining the resistance to climate progress or climate legislation&#8211;but Romm&#8217;s analysis certainly calls into question Nisbet&#8217;s apparent claim that enviros are now outspending their opponents. (I say &#8220;apparent&#8221; because the strength of the claim seems to be stated differently by Nisbet at different times; see here <a href="http://climateprogress.org/2011/04/19/brulle-climate-shift-nisbet/" rel="nofollow">http://climateprogress.org/2011/04/19/brulle-climate-shift-nisbet/</a>).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m most taken aback, though, by Nisbet&#8217;s depiction of AAAS members:</p>
<p>&#8220;AAAS members are as ideologically like-minded as evangelical church members and substantially more partisan.  Only black church members exhibit a stronger partisan lean than AAAS members and only Fox News viewers, Mormon Church members and Tea Party members exhibit a stronger ideological lean.&#8221;</p>
<p>But wait, surely &#8220;ideological&#8221; is a technical term here&#8230;.right? And surely that&#8217;s how the report will be read.</p>
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