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	<title>Comments on: When it Comes to Expertise, Even If You&#8217;re Outnumbered You Can Always Fight a Guerilla War</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/06/15/when-it-comes-to-expertise-even-if-youre-outnumbere-you-can-always-fight-a-guerilla-war/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/06/15/when-it-comes-to-expertise-even-if-youre-outnumbere-you-can-always-fight-a-guerilla-war/</link>
	<description>Where science collides with life, slams into culture, crashes with politics, and gets totaled.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:28:30 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: shams</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/06/15/when-it-comes-to-expertise-even-if-youre-outnumbere-you-can-always-fight-a-guerilla-war/#comment-105823</link>
		<dc:creator>shams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jun 2011 18:39:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=18804#comment-105823</guid>
		<description>Conservative &quot;experts&quot; are anti-empirical.  See, first culture intellectuals.
&lt;blockquote&gt;The third culture consists of those scientists and other thinkers in the empirical world who, through their work and expository writing, are taking the place of the traditional intellectual in rendering visible the deeper meanings of our lives, redefining who and what we are.

In the past few years, the playing field of American intellectual life has shifted, and the traditional intellectual has become increasingly marginalized. A 1950s education in Freud, Marx, and modernism is not a sufficient qualification for a thinking person in the 1990s. Indeed, the traditional American intellectuals are, in a sense, increasingly reactionary, and quite often proudly (and perversely) ignorant of many of the truly significant intellectual accomplishments of our time. Their culture, which dismisses science, is often nonempirical. It uses its own jargon and washes its own laundry. It is chiefly characterized by comment on comments, the swelling spiral of commentary eventually reaching the point where the real world gets lost.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Both conservatism and libertarianism (libertarians are quasi-secular crypto-conservatives) are anti-empirical-- for example the &quot;freed&quot; market.  Free market theory is based on a teleological calumny-- that &quot;freed&quot; markets lead to improvement in the human condition.
This is proveably false, in America at least, where market based policies have led to such horrors as NCLB and the Econopalypse that Ate America&#039;s Jobs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Conservative &#8220;experts&#8221; are anti-empirical.  See, first culture intellectuals.</p>
<blockquote><p>The third culture consists of those scientists and other thinkers in the empirical world who, through their work and expository writing, are taking the place of the traditional intellectual in rendering visible the deeper meanings of our lives, redefining who and what we are.</p>
<p>In the past few years, the playing field of American intellectual life has shifted, and the traditional intellectual has become increasingly marginalized. A 1950s education in Freud, Marx, and modernism is not a sufficient qualification for a thinking person in the 1990s. Indeed, the traditional American intellectuals are, in a sense, increasingly reactionary, and quite often proudly (and perversely) ignorant of many of the truly significant intellectual accomplishments of our time. Their culture, which dismisses science, is often nonempirical. It uses its own jargon and washes its own laundry. It is chiefly characterized by comment on comments, the swelling spiral of commentary eventually reaching the point where the real world gets lost.</p></blockquote>
<p>Both conservatism and libertarianism (libertarians are quasi-secular crypto-conservatives) are anti-empirical&#8211; for example the &#8220;freed&#8221; market.  Free market theory is based on a teleological calumny&#8211; that &#8220;freed&#8221; markets lead to improvement in the human condition.<br />
This is proveably false, in America at least, where market based policies have led to such horrors as NCLB and the Econopalypse that Ate America&#8217;s Jobs.</p>
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		<title>By: JMW</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/06/15/when-it-comes-to-expertise-even-if-youre-outnumbere-you-can-always-fight-a-guerilla-war/#comment-105050</link>
		<dc:creator>JMW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jun 2011 01:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=18804#comment-105050</guid>
		<description>@1. Fred, I think the problem is a bit subtler than you appear to get.

Scientific truth does not have a bias to the left or the right.  It just is.  Sometimes it can be in dispute.

The problem occurs when political parties ignore scientific fact just because it doesn&#039;t fit into their worldview.  In the United States, the Democratic Party has done this in the past - 40 years or more ago.  But in recent years the Republican Party has raised this to an art.

In one sense, you&#039;re right.  Scientific fact isn&#039;t decided by the number of experts, or societies, or even laypeople who support it.  However, when you have duelling experts, it&#039;s the best we can do.  Even if 99% agree with one point of view and 1% dissent, that&#039;s the best you can do.

Because if there&#039;s one thing that politicians should be thrown into prison for, it&#039;s for convincing the rest of us that everything is political.  Sometimes it isn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@1. Fred, I think the problem is a bit subtler than you appear to get.</p>
<p>Scientific truth does not have a bias to the left or the right.  It just is.  Sometimes it can be in dispute.</p>
<p>The problem occurs when political parties ignore scientific fact just because it doesn&#8217;t fit into their worldview.  In the United States, the Democratic Party has done this in the past &#8211; 40 years or more ago.  But in recent years the Republican Party has raised this to an art.</p>
<p>In one sense, you&#8217;re right.  Scientific fact isn&#8217;t decided by the number of experts, or societies, or even laypeople who support it.  However, when you have duelling experts, it&#8217;s the best we can do.  Even if 99% agree with one point of view and 1% dissent, that&#8217;s the best you can do.</p>
<p>Because if there&#8217;s one thing that politicians should be thrown into prison for, it&#8217;s for convincing the rest of us that everything is political.  Sometimes it isn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Incredulous</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/06/15/when-it-comes-to-expertise-even-if-youre-outnumbere-you-can-always-fight-a-guerilla-war/#comment-105007</link>
		<dc:creator>Incredulous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=18804#comment-105007</guid>
		<description>Well if it seemed that those were singling out one side, I apologize. I specifically chose examples that would be identifiable to the audience. I could have just as easily used the stupid &quot;Hide the Decline&quot; video, the bile spewing from Mark Levin, or many other sources. It might have been snarky and amusing the first few times. After endless repetition, it looses its cachet. It is not like a fine wine that improves with age. The whole point is that you end up with overused tripe that is supposed to be some real &quot;zinger&quot; and feeling like you are debating Beavis and Butthead.

This goes to the point of Mr. Mooney&#039;s premise. The tactics have been taken to the level of getting in the quick shot rather than having a real discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well if it seemed that those were singling out one side, I apologize. I specifically chose examples that would be identifiable to the audience. I could have just as easily used the stupid &#8220;Hide the Decline&#8221; video, the bile spewing from Mark Levin, or many other sources. It might have been snarky and amusing the first few times. After endless repetition, it looses its cachet. It is not like a fine wine that improves with age. The whole point is that you end up with overused tripe that is supposed to be some real &#8220;zinger&#8221; and feeling like you are debating Beavis and Butthead.</p>
<p>This goes to the point of Mr. Mooney&#8217;s premise. The tactics have been taken to the level of getting in the quick shot rather than having a real discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Rex the Wonder God</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/06/15/when-it-comes-to-expertise-even-if-youre-outnumbere-you-can-always-fight-a-guerilla-war/#comment-105003</link>
		<dc:creator>Rex the Wonder God</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=18804#comment-105003</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s nothing preventing Fred, or anyone, from actually looking at and into any and all theories, predictions, data, findings, conclusions and arguments about, of or from science; it&#039;s all it completely transparent. Moreover, no one is requiring that he take any argument involving science on faith or by virtue of numbers (Numbers were certainly heavily against Galileo when he adopted the findings of Copernicus.). So, I gather what Fred really is saying is that simply because HE PERSONALLY doesn&#039;t understand the science behind, say, evolution by natural selection, or, say, anthropomorphically-caused climate change, due to his own ignorance or laziness, no one else is entitled to trust it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s nothing preventing Fred, or anyone, from actually looking at and into any and all theories, predictions, data, findings, conclusions and arguments about, of or from science; it&#8217;s all it completely transparent. Moreover, no one is requiring that he take any argument involving science on faith or by virtue of numbers (Numbers were certainly heavily against Galileo when he adopted the findings of Copernicus.). So, I gather what Fred really is saying is that simply because HE PERSONALLY doesn&#8217;t understand the science behind, say, evolution by natural selection, or, say, anthropomorphically-caused climate change, due to his own ignorance or laziness, no one else is entitled to trust it.</p>
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		<title>By: CAV</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/06/15/when-it-comes-to-expertise-even-if-youre-outnumbere-you-can-always-fight-a-guerilla-war/#comment-104992</link>
		<dc:creator>CAV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=18804#comment-104992</guid>
		<description>Actually Incredulous, you are picking on liberals in your post - because it is usually liberals that are 1) making fun of Bush; 2) making fun of anti-vaxers; 3) making fun of teabaggers; 4) making fun of the fact that a commenter on a blog apparently never made it out of fourth grade. And I would ask what pundits you are watching, and which blogs you are reading, because in general, I find that the liberal media I choose to view DOES explain the faulty science behind the anti-vaxxers, and the contradictions in teabagger ideology, and why the Bush policies have screwed us over, etc. In fact, they do it to death - so they try to liven it up with snarky, somewhat amusing comments that &quot;make fun&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually Incredulous, you are picking on liberals in your post &#8211; because it is usually liberals that are 1) making fun of Bush; 2) making fun of anti-vaxers; 3) making fun of teabaggers; 4) making fun of the fact that a commenter on a blog apparently never made it out of fourth grade. And I would ask what pundits you are watching, and which blogs you are reading, because in general, I find that the liberal media I choose to view DOES explain the faulty science behind the anti-vaxxers, and the contradictions in teabagger ideology, and why the Bush policies have screwed us over, etc. In fact, they do it to death &#8211; so they try to liven it up with snarky, somewhat amusing comments that &#8220;make fun&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Democrats and Republicans on Science, and on Policy Facts &#124; The Intersection &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/06/15/when-it-comes-to-expertise-even-if-youre-outnumbere-you-can-always-fight-a-guerilla-war/#comment-104979</link>
		<dc:creator>Democrats and Republicans on Science, and on Policy Facts &#124; The Intersection &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=18804#comment-104979</guid>
		<description>[...] RSS                   &#171; When it Comes to Expertise, Even If You&#8217;re Outnumbered You Can Always Fight a Guerilla War [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] RSS                   &laquo; When it Comes to Expertise, Even If You&#8217;re Outnumbered You Can Always Fight a Guerilla War [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Incredulous</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/06/15/when-it-comes-to-expertise-even-if-youre-outnumbere-you-can-always-fight-a-guerilla-war/#comment-104966</link>
		<dc:creator>Incredulous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:07:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=18804#comment-104966</guid>
		<description>In our world of sound bites, the pundits are making this worse. They take the cheap shots instead of really discussing issues. Instead of crucifying idiots with their own merits, they jump to improper arguments. Don&#039;t criticize Bush&#039;s policies, make fun and call him stupid. Don&#039;t refute the claims scientific claims of Anti-vaxers, make fun of them. Don&#039;t make a reasoned argument why you don&#039;t agree with the Tea Party, make lewd jokes of the double entendre. Don&#039;t address someone&#039;s point in a blog, make fun of their grammar or a spelling mistake.  

In this case, I am not picking on Liberal or Conservative. Both have chosen this attack method so often where it seems like normal debate. Instead of debate, we have people playing the dozens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In our world of sound bites, the pundits are making this worse. They take the cheap shots instead of really discussing issues. Instead of crucifying idiots with their own merits, they jump to improper arguments. Don&#8217;t criticize Bush&#8217;s policies, make fun and call him stupid. Don&#8217;t refute the claims scientific claims of Anti-vaxers, make fun of them. Don&#8217;t make a reasoned argument why you don&#8217;t agree with the Tea Party, make lewd jokes of the double entendre. Don&#8217;t address someone&#8217;s point in a blog, make fun of their grammar or a spelling mistake.  </p>
<p>In this case, I am not picking on Liberal or Conservative. Both have chosen this attack method so often where it seems like normal debate. Instead of debate, we have people playing the dozens.</p>
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		<title>By: Allison</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/06/15/when-it-comes-to-expertise-even-if-youre-outnumbere-you-can-always-fight-a-guerilla-war/#comment-104961</link>
		<dc:creator>Allison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:26:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=18804#comment-104961</guid>
		<description>@2 Chris Mooney

Was your above post an attempt to demonstrate this sentence in your article:

&quot;in a recent, amazing study by Dan Kahan at Yale, in which people with different values tended to discredit the expertise of experts who were depicted as supporting positions that were contrary to their values.&quot;

You don&#039;t know anything about his expertise, but you seem to be doing exactly what you accuse other of.  You dismiss Fred out-of-hand, because he holds the &quot;wrong&quot; viewpoint in your opinion.

Or were you referring to yourself with the phrase &quot;non-experts can make up critiques on the internet&quot;.  If so I apologize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@2 Chris Mooney</p>
<p>Was your above post an attempt to demonstrate this sentence in your article:</p>
<p>&#8220;in a recent, amazing study by Dan Kahan at Yale, in which people with different values tended to discredit the expertise of experts who were depicted as supporting positions that were contrary to their values.&#8221;</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t know anything about his expertise, but you seem to be doing exactly what you accuse other of.  You dismiss Fred out-of-hand, because he holds the &#8220;wrong&#8221; viewpoint in your opinion.</p>
<p>Or were you referring to yourself with the phrase &#8220;non-experts can make up critiques on the internet&#8221;.  If so I apologize.</p>
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		<title>By: gradstudent</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/06/15/when-it-comes-to-expertise-even-if-youre-outnumbere-you-can-always-fight-a-guerilla-war/#comment-104960</link>
		<dc:creator>gradstudent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=18804#comment-104960</guid>
		<description>I always find it funny when a Republican responds to a post about how Democrats are smarter and his/her response is rife with spelling and grammar errors. S/he is only proving the point that Republicans are less educated than Democrats!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always find it funny when a Republican responds to a post about how Democrats are smarter and his/her response is rife with spelling and grammar errors. S/he is only proving the point that Republicans are less educated than Democrats!</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Mooney</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/06/15/when-it-comes-to-expertise-even-if-youre-outnumbere-you-can-always-fight-a-guerilla-war/#comment-104958</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Mooney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2011 16:50:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=18804#comment-104958</guid>
		<description>&quot;Scientific Truth is not determined by how many “experts” you can put in a line.&quot;

And definitely not determined by how many non-experts can make up critiques on the internet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Scientific Truth is not determined by how many “experts” you can put in a line.&#8221;</p>
<p>And definitely not determined by how many non-experts can make up critiques on the internet.</p>
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