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	<title>Comments on: New Point of Inquiry: David Frum, Kenneth Silber &#8212; Conservatives and Science</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/08/02/new-point-of-inquiry-david-frum-kenneth-silber-conservatives-and-science/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/08/02/new-point-of-inquiry-david-frum-kenneth-silber-conservatives-and-science/</link>
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		<title>By: &#160; What the Hell is Frum&#8217;s Problem?&#160;by&#160;Macsmind</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/08/02/new-point-of-inquiry-david-frum-kenneth-silber-conservatives-and-science/#comment-56027</link>
		<dc:creator>&#160; What the Hell is Frum&#8217;s Problem?&#160;by&#160;Macsmind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Aug 2011 03:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=19974#comment-56027</guid>
		<description>[...] New Point of Inquiry: David Frum, Kenneth Silber &#8211; Conservatives and Science &#124; The Intersectio... [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] New Point of Inquiry: David Frum, Kenneth Silber &#8211; Conservatives and Science | The Intersectio&#8230; [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Sean McCorkle</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/08/02/new-point-of-inquiry-david-frum-kenneth-silber-conservatives-and-science/#comment-56026</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean McCorkle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Aug 2011 15:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=19974#comment-56026</guid>
		<description>Chris,

That was a &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; great episode.   I don&#039;t think of myself as a conservative at all, but I really enjoyed hearing Frum&#039;s and Silber&#039;s views.  The point about how scientists used to be more republican 4o years ago or so, but have shifted to the democratic side since then, is enlightening. That, plus the observation that conservatism has been lately usurped by forces of unreason, plus  your recent social/psychologial postings, has convinced me that we shouldn&#039;t be looking at politics as the root cause of the anti-science &amp; political shifts of the last couple of decades, we should instead be looking to understand the underly social-psychological dynamics for an explanation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,</p>
<p>That was a <i>really</i> great episode.   I don&#8217;t think of myself as a conservative at all, but I really enjoyed hearing Frum&#8217;s and Silber&#8217;s views.  The point about how scientists used to be more republican 4o years ago or so, but have shifted to the democratic side since then, is enlightening. That, plus the observation that conservatism has been lately usurped by forces of unreason, plus  your recent social/psychologial postings, has convinced me that we shouldn&#8217;t be looking at politics as the root cause of the anti-science &amp; political shifts of the last couple of decades, we should instead be looking to understand the underly social-psychological dynamics for an explanation.</p>
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		<title>By: Somite</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/08/02/new-point-of-inquiry-david-frum-kenneth-silber-conservatives-and-science/#comment-56025</link>
		<dc:creator>Somite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 23:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=19974#comment-56025</guid>
		<description>Nothing. That&#039;s not what the paper is about.  I could not find a paper that looks into a correlation between climate change and winter deaths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing. That&#8217;s not what the paper is about.  I could not find a paper that looks into a correlation between climate change and winter deaths.</p>
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		<title>By: Nullius in Verba</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/08/02/new-point-of-inquiry-david-frum-kenneth-silber-conservatives-and-science/#comment-56024</link>
		<dc:creator>Nullius in Verba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 23:08:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=19974#comment-56024</guid>
		<description>So what does that paper say about winter deaths?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what does that paper say about winter deaths?</p>
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		<title>By: Somite</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/08/02/new-point-of-inquiry-david-frum-kenneth-silber-conservatives-and-science/#comment-56023</link>
		<dc:creator>Somite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 18:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=19974#comment-56023</guid>
		<description>At least there are papers that conclude that heat-related mortality may increase due to climate change in New York.  The same can not be said for a decrease due to warmer winters:

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/AJPH.2006.102947v1

Conclusions. Although considerable uncertainty exists in climate forecasts and future health vulnerability, the range of projections we developed suggests that by midcentury, acclimatization may not completely mitigate the effects of climate change in the New York City metropolitan region, which would result in an overall net increase in heat-related premature mortality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least there are papers that conclude that heat-related mortality may increase due to climate change in New York.  The same can not be said for a decrease due to warmer winters:</p>
<p><a href="http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/AJPH.2006.102947v1" rel="nofollow">http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/AJPH.2006.102947v1</a></p>
<p>Conclusions. Although considerable uncertainty exists in climate forecasts and future health vulnerability, the range of projections we developed suggests that by midcentury, acclimatization may not completely mitigate the effects of climate change in the New York City metropolitan region, which would result in an overall net increase in heat-related premature mortality.</p>
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		<title>By: Nullius in Verba</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/08/02/new-point-of-inquiry-david-frum-kenneth-silber-conservatives-and-science/#comment-56022</link>
		<dc:creator>Nullius in Verba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 18:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=19974#comment-56022</guid>
		<description>#13,

So far as I can see, the inference that there will be more deaths in summer as climate warms is likewise entirely speculative. But do feel free to point out where in your earlier comment you provided the evidence that you ask for of me.

My prior expectation would be that no changes in either direction would be detectable from a 0.6 C global average change. Heat waves and cold winters fall into the category of weather-not-climate, on a local scale where the signal is lost in the noise. I would expect that there would be no significant change observable. Regulation would constitute an enormous cost for no discernible benefit, the money could be spent elsewhere to save many more lives.

However, many more people die from cold than heat, and global warming reportedly affects the winters more than the summers, polar regions more than tropical, night more than day, so if in future the temperature rose enough that there &lt;i&gt;were&lt;/i&gt; to be a change, I would expect it to be in the direction of fewer deaths.

The argument was hypothetical, as I said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#13,</p>
<p>So far as I can see, the inference that there will be more deaths in summer as climate warms is likewise entirely speculative. But do feel free to point out where in your earlier comment you provided the evidence that you ask for of me.</p>
<p>My prior expectation would be that no changes in either direction would be detectable from a 0.6 C global average change. Heat waves and cold winters fall into the category of weather-not-climate, on a local scale where the signal is lost in the noise. I would expect that there would be no significant change observable. Regulation would constitute an enormous cost for no discernible benefit, the money could be spent elsewhere to save many more lives.</p>
<p>However, many more people die from cold than heat, and global warming reportedly affects the winters more than the summers, polar regions more than tropical, night more than day, so if in future the temperature rose enough that there <i>were</i> to be a change, I would expect it to be in the direction of fewer deaths.</p>
<p>The argument was hypothetical, as I said.</p>
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		<title>By: Somite</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/08/02/new-point-of-inquiry-david-frum-kenneth-silber-conservatives-and-science/#comment-56021</link>
		<dc:creator>Somite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 17:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=19974#comment-56021</guid>
		<description>The diference is that I acknowledge is a hunch rather than peddle a bogus or low impact reference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The diference is that I acknowledge is a hunch rather than peddle a bogus or low impact reference.</p>
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		<title>By: ThomasL</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/08/02/new-point-of-inquiry-david-frum-kenneth-silber-conservatives-and-science/#comment-56020</link>
		<dc:creator>ThomasL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 16:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=19974#comment-56020</guid>
		<description>So let me get this straight Somite,

In the absense of hard data you&#039;ll just &quot;have a hunch&quot; and go with it?  that doesn&#039;t seem very scientific, almost more like that touchy-feely Social Science stuff...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So let me get this straight Somite,</p>
<p>In the absense of hard data you&#8217;ll just &#8220;have a hunch&#8221; and go with it?  that doesn&#8217;t seem very scientific, almost more like that touchy-feely Social Science stuff&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Somite</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/08/02/new-point-of-inquiry-david-frum-kenneth-silber-conservatives-and-science/#comment-56019</link>
		<dc:creator>Somite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 16:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=19974#comment-56019</guid>
		<description>More on why conservatives can&#039;t face up to the science:

http://climatecrocks.com/2011/08/03/d-r-tucker-can-the-gop-face-climate-reality-or-any-reality/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More on why conservatives can&#8217;t face up to the science:</p>
<p><a href="http://climatecrocks.com/2011/08/03/d-r-tucker-can-the-gop-face-climate-reality-or-any-reality/" rel="nofollow">http://climatecrocks.com/2011/08/03/d-r-tucker-can-the-gop-face-climate-reality-or-any-reality/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Somite</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/08/02/new-point-of-inquiry-david-frum-kenneth-silber-conservatives-and-science/#comment-56018</link>
		<dc:creator>Somite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:12:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/?p=19974#comment-56018</guid>
		<description>And here is the problem.  The original article reaches no such conclusion.  It discusses the decreases in mortality in september is specific mediterranean countries:

http://www.cmaj.ca/content/181/8/484.full

The inference that there will be less deaths in winter as climate warms is entirely speculative and only present in the denialist blog you link to.

The first thing you would have to show is that indeed winter deaths have decreased over time and that this decreased is less than the increase in heat-related deaths.

My hunch is that although considerable warming has been documented winter deaths have remained the same while heat-related deaths have possibly increased.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And here is the problem.  The original article reaches no such conclusion.  It discusses the decreases in mortality in september is specific mediterranean countries:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cmaj.ca/content/181/8/484.full" rel="nofollow">http://www.cmaj.ca/content/181/8/484.full</a></p>
<p>The inference that there will be less deaths in winter as climate warms is entirely speculative and only present in the denialist blog you link to.</p>
<p>The first thing you would have to show is that indeed winter deaths have decreased over time and that this decreased is less than the increase in heat-related deaths.</p>
<p>My hunch is that although considerable warming has been documented winter deaths have remained the same while heat-related deaths have possibly increased.</p>
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