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	<title>Comments on: Text Versus Subtext</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/</link>
	<description>A blog about life, past and future. Written by DISCOVER contributing editor and columnist Carl Zimmer.</description>
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		<title>By: Scott Maxwell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/comment-page-1/#comment-7791</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Maxwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2005 22:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/#comment-7791</guid>
		<description>Hmmmmm......do I detect a faint whiff of the old
Chris Stringer vs Milton Wolphol(sp) controversy ???
God I hope so.  The field has been very bland since those two went head to head.  Mr Hawks is obviously in the Milton camp. Are you a closet
Stringer fan Carl ?     If so, let the barbs and personal attacks begin.  I will buy tickets for a front row seat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmmmm&#8230;&#8230;do I detect a faint whiff of the old<br />
Chris Stringer vs Milton Wolphol(sp) controversy ???<br />
God I hope so.  The field has been very bland since those two went head to head.  Mr Hawks is obviously in the Milton camp. Are you a closet<br />
Stringer fan Carl ?     If so, let the barbs and personal attacks begin.  I will buy tickets for a front row seat.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Maxwell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/comment-page-1/#comment-7790</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Maxwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2005 22:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/#comment-7790</guid>
		<description>Hmmmmm......do I detect a faint whiff of the old
Chris Stringer vs Milton Wolphol(sp) controversy ???
God I hope so.  The field has been very bland since those two went head to head.  Mr Hawks is obviously in the Milton camp. Are you a closet
Stringer fan Carl ?     If so, let the barbs and personal attacks begin.  I will buy tickets for a front row seat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmmmm&#8230;&#8230;do I detect a faint whiff of the old<br />
Chris Stringer vs Milton Wolphol(sp) controversy ???<br />
God I hope so.  The field has been very bland since those two went head to head.  Mr Hawks is obviously in the Milton camp. Are you a closet<br />
Stringer fan Carl ?     If so, let the barbs and personal attacks begin.  I will buy tickets for a front row seat.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Martin Brazeau</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/comment-page-1/#comment-7789</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Brazeau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/#comment-7789</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m currently working in a lab that is undertaking CT scans of various fossil lobe-finned fishes and early tetrapods.  We are getting excellent results with the technique.  I find this &quot;garbage in, garbage out&quot; comment to be rather peculiar.  While I see how a person could &quot;fake up&quot; their three dimensional model, it would take a lot of work to make corresponding data appear in the scan slices.  Besides, if somebody questioned your work, it would simply be a matter of scanning the specimen again (though it might cost them a pretty penny).  The results are reliable, repeatable, and checkable.

This method is becoming a major component of my Ph.D. thesis.  There are aspects of morphology (such as the presence of positional relationships of certain bones) that one&#039;s bias cannot easily interpolate into the modeling process.  The information obtained, however, gives us very important clues into the morphological evolution and functional morphology of these animals.  I think that eschewing this kind of promising technology is scientifically irresponsible.  New technology might not be perfect, but ignoring the virtues it does offer does not help science.

Compare CT with the serial grinding methods of yesteryear (of pre-Dark Ages (sensu Zimmer) time): fossils were actually ground up, one slice at a time, each slice was drawn, blown up, and traced into a sheet of wax.  The result, was a larger-than-life wax model of you fossil, and no original fossil left over.  This method offers higher resolution than CT, but comes with its own set of problems!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m currently working in a lab that is undertaking CT scans of various fossil lobe-finned fishes and early tetrapods.  We are getting excellent results with the technique.  I find this &#8220;garbage in, garbage out&#8221; comment to be rather peculiar.  While I see how a person could &#8220;fake up&#8221; their three dimensional model, it would take a lot of work to make corresponding data appear in the scan slices.  Besides, if somebody questioned your work, it would simply be a matter of scanning the specimen again (though it might cost them a pretty penny).  The results are reliable, repeatable, and checkable.</p>
<p>This method is becoming a major component of my Ph.D. thesis.  There are aspects of morphology (such as the presence of positional relationships of certain bones) that one&#8217;s bias cannot easily interpolate into the modeling process.  The information obtained, however, gives us very important clues into the morphological evolution and functional morphology of these animals.  I think that eschewing this kind of promising technology is scientifically irresponsible.  New technology might not be perfect, but ignoring the virtues it does offer does not help science.</p>
<p>Compare CT with the serial grinding methods of yesteryear (of pre-Dark Ages (sensu Zimmer) time): fossils were actually ground up, one slice at a time, each slice was drawn, blown up, and traced into a sheet of wax.  The result, was a larger-than-life wax model of you fossil, and no original fossil left over.  This method offers higher resolution than CT, but comes with its own set of problems!</p>
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		<title>By: Sandra in Dallas</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/comment-page-1/#comment-7788</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandra in Dallas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Sep 2005 04:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/#comment-7788</guid>
		<description>In his Sept 14 comment above Hawks says CT scans have made science worse. However, what he really is decrying is the lack of public access to the scans.  There is a huge difference and it puzzles me that he is beating the wrong drum, and so obviously.

In any case, I am always eagerly awaiting the next Carl Zimmer book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In his Sept 14 comment above Hawks says CT scans have made science worse. However, what he really is decrying is the lack of public access to the scans.  There is a huge difference and it puzzles me that he is beating the wrong drum, and so obviously.</p>
<p>In any case, I am always eagerly awaiting the next Carl Zimmer book.</p>
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		<title>By: Artedi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/comment-page-1/#comment-7787</link>
		<dc:creator>Artedi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/#comment-7787</guid>
		<description>Check my lonely spanish blog, please</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check my lonely spanish blog, please</p>
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		<title>By: John Hawks</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/comment-page-1/#comment-7786</link>
		<dc:creator>John Hawks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/#comment-7786</guid>
		<description>Hi, Carl!

I&#039;m not sneering at you. Really. I&#039;m a big fan. And financial contributor, since I have all your books (even At the Water&#039;s Edge), and I frequently link over here to your posts!

And no, I&#039;m definitely not on the list of people to interview about CT scanning, although for Neandertals and genetics, I&#039;m your guy.

Of course, if I could *get* CT data, I would probably use it. That&#039;s the &quot;utopian&quot; part. Everybody doing this work says how great it is that everyone else will have access to their data. But none of this data is available. Data from only seven fossils (all out of the ground for more than thirty years, I might add) are available for *purchase*, none are available to the public.

Perhaps new data access guidelines at NSF will have an effect. But at the moment, consider the Sahelanthropus reconstruction that your article features. The CT reconstruction shows it likely had a vertical posture.

But how many skeptics were allowed to examine the CT model? I happen to know, because I am one, the answer is zero. Yet, the simple *fact* of the model simply ends debate on the issue, even though nobody else can independently replicate it. If I wanted to write up the features of the skull that are *inconsistent* with vertical posture, I can&#039;t -- because someone else can keep these data away from me.

So, I have grounds to complain about CT -- from my perspective it has made the science worse. But do I have grounds to complain about your article?

Well, reading over my post, I don&#039;t think I said anything that bad about it. Surely it is true that your *text* says that not everything  high-tech is good. But everything else that you wrote about high-tech said it *is* good. That&#039;s the definition of a *subtext*. I don&#039;t think I&#039;m the only one who would find that subtext there: as you say, Discover was running articles that month about how great new technology is going to be for science. In other words, it was an *intended* subtext. It&#039;s not my fault the editors wanted articles trumpeting tech changes, and it&#039;s not your fault you wrote one.

But as a scientist writing about my science, I have to give my own opinion (that&#039;s why I&#039;m a blogger and not a journalist), and I don&#039;t think it was unfair to point out the agenda. I have done so with Discover articles before, and I&#039;m a subscriber so I have some right (there&#039;s that financial contribution again!).

I do mention the theme of the issue right in the first paragraph of my post. The article doesn&#039;t give any information at all about why anyone would think CT scanning isn&#039;t the cat&#039;s pajamas; I give positives and negatives. And what&#039;s the use of having a blog if I can&#039;t be snarky once in a while? The idea that everyone will be happy when they have CT scans at last *is* utopian; the printed text of Tim White&#039;s interview *doesn&#039;t* mention CT scans. Perhaps it&#039;s sin by omission, but whose fault is that? Most of the other interviews in the issue (this you didn&#039;t mention) *did* focus on just the same topic as the article they accompanied.

So, just to sum up: I am still a fan of Carl Zimmer. I do not wish to rack up quotes in future Carl Zimmer articles. I do not think my post was unfair; it is more balanced on the positives and negatives of CT scanning than the original article. And my complaint is not that the CT interpreters are splitters and I&#039;m a lumper; it is that the CT interpreters are acting like high priests of technology who don&#039;t deign to allow their work to be replicated independently.

I think that a survey of people in the field would show this point of view is widely shared.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Carl!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sneering at you. Really. I&#8217;m a big fan. And financial contributor, since I have all your books (even At the Water&#8217;s Edge), and I frequently link over here to your posts!</p>
<p>And no, I&#8217;m definitely not on the list of people to interview about CT scanning, although for Neandertals and genetics, I&#8217;m your guy.</p>
<p>Of course, if I could *get* CT data, I would probably use it. That&#8217;s the &#8220;utopian&#8221; part. Everybody doing this work says how great it is that everyone else will have access to their data. But none of this data is available. Data from only seven fossils (all out of the ground for more than thirty years, I might add) are available for *purchase*, none are available to the public.</p>
<p>Perhaps new data access guidelines at NSF will have an effect. But at the moment, consider the Sahelanthropus reconstruction that your article features. The CT reconstruction shows it likely had a vertical posture.</p>
<p>But how many skeptics were allowed to examine the CT model? I happen to know, because I am one, the answer is zero. Yet, the simple *fact* of the model simply ends debate on the issue, even though nobody else can independently replicate it. If I wanted to write up the features of the skull that are *inconsistent* with vertical posture, I can&#8217;t &#8212; because someone else can keep these data away from me.</p>
<p>So, I have grounds to complain about CT &#8212; from my perspective it has made the science worse. But do I have grounds to complain about your article?</p>
<p>Well, reading over my post, I don&#8217;t think I said anything that bad about it. Surely it is true that your *text* says that not everything  high-tech is good. But everything else that you wrote about high-tech said it *is* good. That&#8217;s the definition of a *subtext*. I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m the only one who would find that subtext there: as you say, Discover was running articles that month about how great new technology is going to be for science. In other words, it was an *intended* subtext. It&#8217;s not my fault the editors wanted articles trumpeting tech changes, and it&#8217;s not your fault you wrote one.</p>
<p>But as a scientist writing about my science, I have to give my own opinion (that&#8217;s why I&#8217;m a blogger and not a journalist), and I don&#8217;t think it was unfair to point out the agenda. I have done so with Discover articles before, and I&#8217;m a subscriber so I have some right (there&#8217;s that financial contribution again!).</p>
<p>I do mention the theme of the issue right in the first paragraph of my post. The article doesn&#8217;t give any information at all about why anyone would think CT scanning isn&#8217;t the cat&#8217;s pajamas; I give positives and negatives. And what&#8217;s the use of having a blog if I can&#8217;t be snarky once in a while? The idea that everyone will be happy when they have CT scans at last *is* utopian; the printed text of Tim White&#8217;s interview *doesn&#8217;t* mention CT scans. Perhaps it&#8217;s sin by omission, but whose fault is that? Most of the other interviews in the issue (this you didn&#8217;t mention) *did* focus on just the same topic as the article they accompanied.</p>
<p>So, just to sum up: I am still a fan of Carl Zimmer. I do not wish to rack up quotes in future Carl Zimmer articles. I do not think my post was unfair; it is more balanced on the positives and negatives of CT scanning than the original article. And my complaint is not that the CT interpreters are splitters and I&#8217;m a lumper; it is that the CT interpreters are acting like high priests of technology who don&#8217;t deign to allow their work to be replicated independently.</p>
<p>I think that a survey of people in the field would show this point of view is widely shared.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Karls Stonjek</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/comment-page-1/#comment-7785</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Karls Stonjek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:11:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/#comment-7785</guid>
		<description>...and they can hassle you with minor details and nit picking, like the grammar error in your second paragraph
&quot;after my stories is are published.&quot;

...not that I&#039;d do anything like that :)

Actually, being dyslexic has an advantage &#150; as I don&#146;t trust my own ability to spell I always leave it to the computer to check, and as I may also read over grammar errors I always get the text-to-speech engine to read it back to me.  The surprising upshot is that this system is so effective that I find errors in other people&#146;s work.

We have a remarkable ability to error-correct as we read (but dyslexics don&#146;t, so reading errors actually become compounded) so that we tend to correct our own errors and so don&#146;t &#145;see&#146; them.  But in hearing a piece read back by another (person or computer, though a person may read over errors corrected on the fly as well) one tends to readily pick out the errors, as with the above example.

Kind Regards
Robert Karl Stonjek</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;and they can hassle you with minor details and nit picking, like the grammar error in your second paragraph<br />
&#8220;after my stories is are published.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;not that I&#8217;d do anything like that <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Actually, being dyslexic has an advantage &#8211; as I don&#8217;t trust my own ability to spell I always leave it to the computer to check, and as I may also read over grammar errors I always get the text-to-speech engine to read it back to me.  The surprising upshot is that this system is so effective that I find errors in other people&#8217;s work.</p>
<p>We have a remarkable ability to error-correct as we read (but dyslexics don&#8217;t, so reading errors actually become compounded) so that we tend to correct our own errors and so don&#8217;t &#8216;see&#8217; them.  But in hearing a piece read back by another (person or computer, though a person may read over errors corrected on the fly as well) one tends to readily pick out the errors, as with the above example.</p>
<p>Kind Regards<br />
Robert Karl Stonjek</p>
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		<title>By: cats</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/comment-page-1/#comment-7784</link>
		<dc:creator>cats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:52:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2005/09/13/text-versus-subtext/#comment-7784</guid>
		<description>Well, this is something almost every science writer may encounter. Science writing is to communicate information at best efforts. And this may inevitably ddissatisfy somebody, for it&#039;s not a scientific paper (but even a paper can not be perfect).


As for Hawks&#039; case, he may feel that you didn&#039;t include his opinion. (yes, his &quot;no CT scan here&quot; is really ludicrous.) But it&#039;s unrealistic to quote him every time.

Anyway, cheers up, Carl.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, this is something almost every science writer may encounter. Science writing is to communicate information at best efforts. And this may inevitably ddissatisfy somebody, for it&#8217;s not a scientific paper (but even a paper can not be perfect).</p>
<p>As for Hawks&#8217; case, he may feel that you didn&#8217;t include his opinion. (yes, his &#8220;no CT scan here&#8221; is really ludicrous.) But it&#8217;s unrealistic to quote him every time.</p>
<p>Anyway, cheers up, Carl.</p>
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