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	<title>Comments on: In Praise of Flukes</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/</link>
	<description>A blog about life, past and future. Written by DISCOVER contributing editor and columnist Carl Zimmer.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:00:24 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Carl Zimmer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-2000</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Zimmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:22:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-2000</guid>
		<description>Daniel--For you and any other disappointed trematode fans, here&#039;s an old &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/archives/2003/10/02/divine_worms/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;favorite &lt;/a&gt; of mine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel&#8211;For you and any other disappointed trematode fans, here&#8217;s an old <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/archives/2003/10/02/divine_worms/" rel="nofollow">favorite </a> of mine.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Collins</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1999</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1999</guid>
		<description>It is a fluke indeed that, despite my a priori assumption, I was not about to read a tale about trematodes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a fluke indeed that, despite my a priori assumption, I was not about to read a tale about trematodes.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Zimmer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1998</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Zimmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1998</guid>
		<description>John,

See my update to the original post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>See my update to the original post.</p>
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		<title>By: John Travis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1997</link>
		<dc:creator>John Travis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1997</guid>
		<description>Carl
I enjoyed your story but, as a science journalist myself, I was surprised that you didn&#039;t include comments about Lynch&#039;s theory from others in the field. I don&#039;t think every story needs the &quot;outside comment&quot; but this was one that left me wondering how Lynch&#039;s ideas have been received.
--john</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl<br />
I enjoyed your story but, as a science journalist myself, I was surprised that you didn&#8217;t include comments about Lynch&#8217;s theory from others in the field. I don&#8217;t think every story needs the &#8220;outside comment&#8221; but this was one that left me wondering how Lynch&#8217;s ideas have been received.<br />
&#8211;john</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1996</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 19:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1996</guid>
		<description>Hi Carl,

I enjoy your writing.

I have a question about one sentence you wrote. (I&#039;m a biologist, but I&#039;m pretty ignorant about evolution or splicing, so treat me as an amateur.)

You wrote:
&quot;Once an intron was wedged into the middle of a gene, a cell had to be able to recognize its boundaries in order to skip over it when making a protein.&quot;

You sound like saying that an intron is a random sequence of DNA inserted into a previously-intronless gene. Is there evidence for this? I&#039;m asking this because:
1) I know cases when genes lose introns (for example when genes are integrated into retroviruses) but I didn&#039;t know about reverse cases.
2) Self-splicing introns (which are admittedly minority of introns) are hardly random sequences and I recall that even splicing of the majority of introns that are not self-splicing is catalyzed by a similar mechanism.

Basically, I&#039;m curious, as a non-expert, about the origin and evolution of introns and they relate to divergence of prokaryotes and eukaryotes. And how about archea?

Anyway, keep up the good work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Carl,</p>
<p>I enjoy your writing.</p>
<p>I have a question about one sentence you wrote. (I&#8217;m a biologist, but I&#8217;m pretty ignorant about evolution or splicing, so treat me as an amateur.)</p>
<p>You wrote:<br />
&#8220;Once an intron was wedged into the middle of a gene, a cell had to be able to recognize its boundaries in order to skip over it when making a protein.&#8221;</p>
<p>You sound like saying that an intron is a random sequence of DNA inserted into a previously-intronless gene. Is there evidence for this? I&#8217;m asking this because:<br />
1) I know cases when genes lose introns (for example when genes are integrated into retroviruses) but I didn&#8217;t know about reverse cases.<br />
2) Self-splicing introns (which are admittedly minority of introns) are hardly random sequences and I recall that even splicing of the majority of introns that are not self-splicing is catalyzed by a similar mechanism.</p>
<p>Basically, I&#8217;m curious, as a non-expert, about the origin and evolution of introns and they relate to divergence of prokaryotes and eukaryotes. And how about archea?</p>
<p>Anyway, keep up the good work!</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Uitti</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1995</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Uitti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 19:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1995</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m some three years into reading the Bible.  I suspect that most professional theologians have not finished it.  It is slow going.  It has been translated several times and suffers on clarity. It meanders.  There is enormous repetition. The content density is quite low, especially if there is something specific you want to learn from it.  I&#039;d much rather read biology journals even though I have  little formal biology training.  At least if there&#039;s a term I don&#039;t know, it is possible to look it up.  With the Bible, it isn&#039;t at all clear if I&#039;ve missed a point entirely, unless I also study several additional references.

The term &#039;laziness&#039; typically has judgmental overtones.  It is nearly always a good thing to look for a short cut.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m some three years into reading the Bible.  I suspect that most professional theologians have not finished it.  It is slow going.  It has been translated several times and suffers on clarity. It meanders.  There is enormous repetition. The content density is quite low, especially if there is something specific you want to learn from it.  I&#8217;d much rather read biology journals even though I have  little formal biology training.  At least if there&#8217;s a term I don&#8217;t know, it is possible to look it up.  With the Bible, it isn&#8217;t at all clear if I&#8217;ve missed a point entirely, unless I also study several additional references.</p>
<p>The term &#8216;laziness&#8217; typically has judgmental overtones.  It is nearly always a good thing to look for a short cut.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1994</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 18:45:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1994</guid>
		<description>Carl,

I do like this argument about drift having a bigger role in evolution. This argument has its origins in the development of neutral theory by Kimura and Nei. Recently, this is coming to the fore in human evolutuion, viz, which model better accounts for the diversity DNA research uncovers in humans a result of adaptations (regional selection) or simply neutral variability? I am inclined to think &#039;isolation by distance&#039; and drift have played a significant role in human evolution.
Carl, what information have you on this topic? Are there any papers supporting modeling key human characteristics by non-selective forces: say, upright walking, enlarged brains etc. These key features have always been interpreted as arising from purely selective forces. Not to mention population specific diseases and loci, which may themselves be simple effects of non-selective forces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl,</p>
<p>I do like this argument about drift having a bigger role in evolution. This argument has its origins in the development of neutral theory by Kimura and Nei. Recently, this is coming to the fore in human evolutuion, viz, which model better accounts for the diversity DNA research uncovers in humans a result of adaptations (regional selection) or simply neutral variability? I am inclined to think &#8216;isolation by distance&#8217; and drift have played a significant role in human evolution.<br />
Carl, what information have you on this topic? Are there any papers supporting modeling key human characteristics by non-selective forces: say, upright walking, enlarged brains etc. These key features have always been interpreted as arising from purely selective forces. Not to mention population specific diseases and loci, which may themselves be simple effects of non-selective forces.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Zimmer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1993</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Zimmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1993</guid>
		<description>Michael, I&#039;m happy to write about this sort of stuff for those who don&#039;t want to wade through a lot of scientific papers. That&#039;s my job, and I&#039;m grateful for it. But in this case, I&#039;m responding to someone who has made a sweeping statement about the lack of evidence for the origin of eukaryotes from a bacteria-like ancestor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I&#8217;m happy to write about this sort of stuff for those who don&#8217;t want to wade through a lot of scientific papers. That&#8217;s my job, and I&#8217;m grateful for it. But in this case, I&#8217;m responding to someone who has made a sweeping statement about the lack of evidence for the origin of eukaryotes from a bacteria-like ancestor.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Wagner</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1992</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie Wagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1992</guid>
		<description>Carl,
That&#039;s me above as &quot;anonymous&quot;. I forgot to fill in the info boxes.

Charlie Wagner</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl,<br />
That&#8217;s me above as &#8220;anonymous&#8221;. I forgot to fill in the info boxes.</p>
<p>Charlie Wagner</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1991</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1991</guid>
		<description>Carl wrote:

&quot;With Charlie&#039;s bait and switch above, he has clearly demonstrated that he doesn&#039;t actually want to be bothered with investigating the evidence. If he needs someone to summarize this information for him, then perhaps he should refrain from making blanket statements about it.&quot;

Your conclusion that there is a component of laziness involved is misguided. I&#039;ve read dozens of articles on this subject, including many that are on your list by Woese, Doolittle, Margulis and others. I have come to the conclusion by analyzing the evidence that there is no credible reason to believe that eukaryotes &quot;evolved from&quot; prokaryotes.
Perhaps you are confusing relatedness with phylogeny. Because forms have similar structures and processes, doesn&#039;t mean they are necessarily phylogenetically linked.
I don&#039;t think it&#039;s asking to much for you to summarize the reasons why you are making this claim. I&#039;ve looked at the same evidence that you have and obviously reached a different conclusion. It&#039;s up to you to clarify your thinking on the matter. You&#039;re the one making the blanket statements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;With Charlie&#8217;s bait and switch above, he has clearly demonstrated that he doesn&#8217;t actually want to be bothered with investigating the evidence. If he needs someone to summarize this information for him, then perhaps he should refrain from making blanket statements about it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Your conclusion that there is a component of laziness involved is misguided. I&#8217;ve read dozens of articles on this subject, including many that are on your list by Woese, Doolittle, Margulis and others. I have come to the conclusion by analyzing the evidence that there is no credible reason to believe that eukaryotes &#8220;evolved from&#8221; prokaryotes.<br />
Perhaps you are confusing relatedness with phylogeny. Because forms have similar structures and processes, doesn&#8217;t mean they are necessarily phylogenetically linked.<br />
I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s asking to much for you to summarize the reasons why you are making this claim. I&#8217;ve looked at the same evidence that you have and obviously reached a different conclusion. It&#8217;s up to you to clarify your thinking on the matter. You&#8217;re the one making the blanket statements.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1990</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1990</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with Charlie on this one, although I strongly suspect Charlie and I agree on little else. For those of us who are not formally trained in biology the material you have referenced is heavy going. I have long thought that the appeal of fundamentalist religion is that it requires little thought or analysis - there is, after all, only one book to read. By contrast, even a narrow area of science such as cellular biology requires years of study just to understand the basics. Some of us, though seriously interested, don&#039;t have the time or dedication for that education and need summaries of the most important points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Charlie on this one, although I strongly suspect Charlie and I agree on little else. For those of us who are not formally trained in biology the material you have referenced is heavy going. I have long thought that the appeal of fundamentalist religion is that it requires little thought or analysis &#8211; there is, after all, only one book to read. By contrast, even a narrow area of science such as cellular biology requires years of study just to understand the basics. Some of us, though seriously interested, don&#8217;t have the time or dedication for that education and need summaries of the most important points.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Zimmer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1989</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Zimmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 16:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1989</guid>
		<description>With Charlie&#039;s bait and switch above, he has clearly demonstrated that he doesn&#039;t actually want to be bothered with investigating the evidence. If he needs someone to summarize this information for him, then perhaps he should refrain from making blanket statements about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With Charlie&#8217;s bait and switch above, he has clearly demonstrated that he doesn&#8217;t actually want to be bothered with investigating the evidence. If he needs someone to summarize this information for him, then perhaps he should refrain from making blanket statements about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Wagner</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1988</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie Wagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 16:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1988</guid>
		<description>Carl wrote:

&quot;Re Charlie Wagner&#039;s comments: There are quite a few &quot;shreds,&quot; for those who would actually like to consider them. See here for starters.&quot;

Instead of asking people to wade through dozens of journal articles, (a tactic often used to dissuade people and create obfuscation) why don&#039;t you just take a moment and summarize the key pieces of evidence that supports the claim you made?
Since you made the claim, It seems to me that   it&#039;s your responsibility to defend it yourself instead of asking me to prove to myself what I don&#039;t believe is true.
After all, you are a science writer and popularizer of science topics and you generally write for laypersons, surely you can state your points in a simple and understandable manner for anyone with a reasonable intelligence to understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;Re Charlie Wagner&#8217;s comments: There are quite a few &#8220;shreds,&#8221; for those who would actually like to consider them. See here for starters.&#8221;</p>
<p>Instead of asking people to wade through dozens of journal articles, (a tactic often used to dissuade people and create obfuscation) why don&#8217;t you just take a moment and summarize the key pieces of evidence that supports the claim you made?<br />
Since you made the claim, It seems to me that   it&#8217;s your responsibility to defend it yourself instead of asking me to prove to myself what I don&#8217;t believe is true.<br />
After all, you are a science writer and popularizer of science topics and you generally write for laypersons, surely you can state your points in a simple and understandable manner for anyone with a reasonable intelligence to understand.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Zimmer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1987</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Zimmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 15:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1987</guid>
		<description>Re Charlie Wagner&#039;s comments: There are quite a few &quot;shreds,&quot; for those who would actually like to consider them. See &lt;a href=&quot;http://tolweb.org/tree?group=life_on_earth&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;  for starters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re Charlie Wagner&#8217;s comments: There are quite a few &#8220;shreds,&#8221; for those who would actually like to consider them. See <a href="http://tolweb.org/tree?group=life_on_earth" rel="nofollow">here</a>  for starters.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Wagner</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/comment-page-1/#comment-1986</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie Wagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 14:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/01/02/in-praise-of-flukes/#comment-1986</guid>
		<description>Carl,
You wrote in yesterday&#039;s NYT

&quot;Evolutionary biologists generally agree that humans and other living species are descended from bacterialike ancestors. But before about two billion years ago, human ancestors branched off.
This new group, called eukaryotes, also gave rise to other animals, plants, fungi and protozoans.&quot;

With all due respect, there is not a shred of empirical evidence, either observational or experimental that supports the audacious claim that eukaryotes &quot;evolved&quot; from prokaryotes, much less that drift and/or selection was the mechanism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl,<br />
You wrote in yesterday&#8217;s NYT</p>
<p>&#8220;Evolutionary biologists generally agree that humans and other living species are descended from bacterialike ancestors. But before about two billion years ago, human ancestors branched off.<br />
This new group, called eukaryotes, also gave rise to other animals, plants, fungi and protozoans.&#8221;</p>
<p>With all due respect, there is not a shred of empirical evidence, either observational or experimental that supports the audacious claim that eukaryotes &#8220;evolved&#8221; from prokaryotes, much less that drift and/or selection was the mechanism.</p>
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