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	<title>Comments on: Tree of Life, c. 2006</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/</link>
	<description>A blog about life, past and future. Written by DISCOVER contributing editor and columnist Carl Zimmer.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:00:24 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Monad</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2747</link>
		<dc:creator>Monad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2747</guid>
		<description>This to me is as powerful a piece of evidence for evolution as the geological column. If life had all been created at once then why the beautifully nested series that not only follows most of the predictions made on the basis of the fossil record and morphology but also clarifies and elucidates in places where the fossil record is unhelpful or morphology is ambiguous?

The only regret I have is that the metazoa section seems so poorly resolved. I suppose that&#039;s due to the fact that metazoan genomes are longer but I would love to see even a few lophotrocozoa plugged into this, or a chaetognaph or two, or gnathostomulid, or echinoderm, or priapulid. Without this data it&#039;s hard to tell if the position of vertebrates in relation to insects is just an artifact and will change when better data is plugged in, or if it reflects something more profound (such as a return to a coelomate clade and maybe a return to the view that vertebrates are &quot;worms turned upside down&quot; or visa versa, as chaetognaths and protoconodonts possibly suggest)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This to me is as powerful a piece of evidence for evolution as the geological column. If life had all been created at once then why the beautifully nested series that not only follows most of the predictions made on the basis of the fossil record and morphology but also clarifies and elucidates in places where the fossil record is unhelpful or morphology is ambiguous?</p>
<p>The only regret I have is that the metazoa section seems so poorly resolved. I suppose that&#8217;s due to the fact that metazoan genomes are longer but I would love to see even a few lophotrocozoa plugged into this, or a chaetognaph or two, or gnathostomulid, or echinoderm, or priapulid. Without this data it&#8217;s hard to tell if the position of vertebrates in relation to insects is just an artifact and will change when better data is plugged in, or if it reflects something more profound (such as a return to a coelomate clade and maybe a return to the view that vertebrates are &#8220;worms turned upside down&#8221; or visa versa, as chaetognaths and protoconodonts possibly suggest)</p>
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		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2746</link>
		<dc:creator>David B. Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:56:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2746</guid>
		<description>Re #10 -- Mark, I don&#039;t think so.  See Carl Zimmer&#039;s book on human origins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #10 &#8212; Mark, I don&#8217;t think so.  See Carl Zimmer&#8217;s book on human origins.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Erwin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2745</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Erwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 14:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2745</guid>
		<description>Rafael: I think you&#039;re misreading something.  There aren&#039;t any reptiles in the set of animals analyzed (presumably because no one has published a complete genome for a reptile yet), so the diagram doesn&#039;t actually say anything about the relatedness of reptiles to birds, mammals, or fish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rafael: I think you&#8217;re misreading something.  There aren&#8217;t any reptiles in the set of animals analyzed (presumably because no one has published a complete genome for a reptile yet), so the diagram doesn&#8217;t actually say anything about the relatedness of reptiles to birds, mammals, or fish.</p>
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		<title>By: Rafael</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2744</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Mar 2006 20:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2744</guid>
		<description>So, birds are more related to mammals, and birds-and-mammals are more related to fish, than to reptiles? weird.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, birds are more related to mammals, and birds-and-mammals are more related to fish, than to reptiles? weird.</p>
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		<title>By: luca</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2743</link>
		<dc:creator>luca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Mar 2006 15:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2743</guid>
		<description>and by the way, I wonder how &#039;skewed&#039; a view of life this tree gives, considering that most animals whose genome has been sequenced have received this treatment because, for one reason or another, are involved with humans/cattle/crop health. Does this give the wrong picture of unicellulars being like mostly pathogens/parassites &#039;itching&#039; a ride on our multi-cellular backs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and by the way, I wonder how &#8216;skewed&#8217; a view of life this tree gives, considering that most animals whose genome has been sequenced have received this treatment because, for one reason or another, are involved with humans/cattle/crop health. Does this give the wrong picture of unicellulars being like mostly pathogens/parassites &#8216;itching&#8217; a ride on our multi-cellular backs?</p>
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		<title>By: luca</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2742</link>
		<dc:creator>luca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Mar 2006 15:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2742</guid>
		<description>Nice period for inspiring pictures, this... Actually, a rather nice T-shirt would have the two last images (this one and the Earth&#039;s clock) on the two sides. wit two arrows pointing at how small we humans are...

I guess I&#039;m going to do it, now... :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice period for inspiring pictures, this&#8230; Actually, a rather nice T-shirt would have the two last images (this one and the Earth&#8217;s clock) on the two sides. wit two arrows pointing at how small we humans are&#8230;</p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;m going to do it, now&#8230; <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Dan S.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2741</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2741</guid>
		<description>&quot;Where can I get a t-shirt with this on it?&quot;

me too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Where can I get a t-shirt with this on it?&#8221;</p>
<p>me too!</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2740</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Mar 2006 20:01:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2740</guid>
		<description>I have a question about this tree.  I notice that the chimpanzee branch is longer than the human branch.  Does this mean that the chimp genome has changed more than the human genome since the split?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a question about this tree.  I notice that the chimpanzee branch is longer than the human branch.  Does this mean that the chimp genome has changed more than the human genome since the split?</p>
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		<title>By: Rhosgobel: Radagast's Home</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2748</link>
		<dc:creator>Rhosgobel: Radagast's Home</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Mar 2006 09:52:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2748</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;A tree of life ...&lt;/strong&gt;

Carl Zimmer has linked to a beautiful phylogeny displaying the diversity of life ... For those who are curious, here are the common names (and descriptions, where appropriate) of the eukaryotes included:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>A tree of life &#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Carl Zimmer has linked to a beautiful phylogeny displaying the diversity of life &#8230; For those who are curious, here are the common names (and descriptions, where appropriate) of the eukaryotes included:</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2739</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Mar 2006 04:16:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2739</guid>
		<description>WOW!

Please come to the Evangelical Outpost sometime and help fellow evolutionists argue our case against the smart IDer&#039;s and the dumb-ass fundamentalists.

If one were looking for God, this tree might be a good place to start.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WOW!</p>
<p>Please come to the Evangelical Outpost sometime and help fellow evolutionists argue our case against the smart IDer&#8217;s and the dumb-ass fundamentalists.</p>
<p>If one were looking for God, this tree might be a good place to start.</p>
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		<title>By: Emily Sommer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2738</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily Sommer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Mar 2006 20:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2738</guid>
		<description>Wow, thats awesome. I almost don´t know what to say, but its very cool. Its also neat that as new species have there DNA genomes sequenced they can be added to the tree, so that the tree itself can &quot;evolve&quot; as it were.

I can´t tell you how much I like The Loom... I´m studying in Spain and have a bit of a hard time finding good, informative science news (its partially the language thing, but also just cause there aren´t as many good sources, or at least, I haven´t found them yet...). As a result, I pop on here everyday to see if theres something new... its just amazing!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, thats awesome. I almost don´t know what to say, but its very cool. Its also neat that as new species have there DNA genomes sequenced they can be added to the tree, so that the tree itself can &#8220;evolve&#8221; as it were.</p>
<p>I can´t tell you how much I like The Loom&#8230; I´m studying in Spain and have a bit of a hard time finding good, informative science news (its partially the language thing, but also just cause there aren´t as many good sources, or at least, I haven´t found them yet&#8230;). As a result, I pop on here everyday to see if theres something new&#8230; its just amazing!!</p>
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		<title>By: Monte Davis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2737</link>
		<dc:creator>Monte Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Mar 2006 16:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2737</guid>
		<description>&quot;This touches on something that has concerned us systematists for many many years. If a weight, what weight?&quot;

I realize with all due trepidation that weighting opens the door to subjectivity. The EMBL version is indispensable as a raw look at the domain: it is both true and important that, as Carl notes, strep and salmonella are more different from each other and from us than we are from fungi.

But we routinely use many axes of &quot;difference.&quot; I anticipate that if we&#039;re judicious and &lt;i&gt;explicit&lt;/i&gt; about weighting, we&#039;ll develop  multiple views of a many-dimensional tree, each a different slice through the data. And some of those slices will reflect that eukaryotic genetic systems -- and metazoan developmental systems -- are intensely hierarchical and context-dependent in time and space, so that some substitutions have more far-reaching consequences than others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This touches on something that has concerned us systematists for many many years. If a weight, what weight?&#8221;</p>
<p>I realize with all due trepidation that weighting opens the door to subjectivity. The EMBL version is indispensable as a raw look at the domain: it is both true and important that, as Carl notes, strep and salmonella are more different from each other and from us than we are from fungi.</p>
<p>But we routinely use many axes of &#8220;difference.&#8221; I anticipate that if we&#8217;re judicious and <i>explicit</i> about weighting, we&#8217;ll develop  multiple views of a many-dimensional tree, each a different slice through the data. And some of those slices will reflect that eukaryotic genetic systems &#8212; and metazoan developmental systems &#8212; are intensely hierarchical and context-dependent in time and space, so that some substitutions have more far-reaching consequences than others.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Siddall</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2736</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Siddall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Mar 2006 06:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2736</guid>
		<description>Monte Davis writes in anticipation of there being more weight given to changes in regulatory genes versus beanbag genetics.  This touches on something that has concerned us systematists for many many years.  If a weight, what weight?  An integer weight?  A weight that applies equally across all lineages or can vary from branch to branch? Weight all changes the same in the hundreds-bases-long regulatory gene, or just those for which there is evidence of positive selection?  My point is not to disparage, but rather to note that systematists are, in fact, quite wary of such issues.  The intractability, and tendency to subjectivity in many respects, is something that causes many of us to, in fact, avoid use of such genes and, rather, employ those that appear to be &quot;neutral&quot; so as to not bias the result or force us to make arbitrary decisions about what change is or is not more important than another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Monte Davis writes in anticipation of there being more weight given to changes in regulatory genes versus beanbag genetics.  This touches on something that has concerned us systematists for many many years.  If a weight, what weight?  An integer weight?  A weight that applies equally across all lineages or can vary from branch to branch? Weight all changes the same in the hundreds-bases-long regulatory gene, or just those for which there is evidence of positive selection?  My point is not to disparage, but rather to note that systematists are, in fact, quite wary of such issues.  The intractability, and tendency to subjectivity in many respects, is something that causes many of us to, in fact, avoid use of such genes and, rather, employ those that appear to be &#8220;neutral&#8221; so as to not bias the result or force us to make arbitrary decisions about what change is or is not more important than another.</p>
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		<title>By: djlactin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2735</link>
		<dc:creator>djlactin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Mar 2006 04:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2735</guid>
		<description>First (because the next bit is rather verbose): how long was the piece of line that the authors cut out to make the tree more readable?

Now a comment:  Gene Phylogeny can be substantially different from Organismal Phylogeny. (Read &quot;The Ancestor&#039;s Tale&quot;  by Dawkins)

On one hand, species can diverge phenotypically while their genomes remain substantially the same -- take humans and chimps, for example.  Substantial chunks of genome (haplotypes) typically remain unmodified well beyond speciation events.

On the other hand, given that evolution works on genetic variation, at least some of this
variation must PRECEDE any speciation event.

Since higher-level cladogenesis begins with speciation, the same can be said for the origin of higher clades.

Further, different genes/haplotypes change at different rates over evolutionary time (and among lineages), so analysis can (will?) give different phylogenetic trees for different genes/haplotypes.

The conclusion is that there is no single &quot;genetic evolutionary tree&quot;, but a cluster (more or less) of similar ones, one for each gene/haplotype).

When dealing with divergence in this way, it becomes clear that the branching &quot;points&quot; are actually 2-dimensional: &quot;smeared out&quot; along the time axis, FOR EACH gene/haploytpe, with the timing and duration of the smears likely being different for each. (This revelation shook my foundations!)  There&#039;s a clear analogy with the &quot;Point estimate&quot; and &quot;Confidence interval&quot; in statistical analysis.  The representation of phylogeny as a tree with distinct (and unique) branch points is somewhat misleading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First (because the next bit is rather verbose): how long was the piece of line that the authors cut out to make the tree more readable?</p>
<p>Now a comment:  Gene Phylogeny can be substantially different from Organismal Phylogeny. (Read &#8220;The Ancestor&#8217;s Tale&#8221;  by Dawkins)</p>
<p>On one hand, species can diverge phenotypically while their genomes remain substantially the same &#8212; take humans and chimps, for example.  Substantial chunks of genome (haplotypes) typically remain unmodified well beyond speciation events.</p>
<p>On the other hand, given that evolution works on genetic variation, at least some of this<br />
variation must PRECEDE any speciation event.</p>
<p>Since higher-level cladogenesis begins with speciation, the same can be said for the origin of higher clades.</p>
<p>Further, different genes/haplotypes change at different rates over evolutionary time (and among lineages), so analysis can (will?) give different phylogenetic trees for different genes/haplotypes.</p>
<p>The conclusion is that there is no single &#8220;genetic evolutionary tree&#8221;, but a cluster (more or less) of similar ones, one for each gene/haplotype).</p>
<p>When dealing with divergence in this way, it becomes clear that the branching &#8220;points&#8221; are actually 2-dimensional: &#8220;smeared out&#8221; along the time axis, FOR EACH gene/haploytpe, with the timing and duration of the smears likely being different for each. (This revelation shook my foundations!)  There&#8217;s a clear analogy with the &#8220;Point estimate&#8221; and &#8220;Confidence interval&#8221; in statistical analysis.  The representation of phylogeny as a tree with distinct (and unique) branch points is somewhat misleading.</p>
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		<title>By: cdgwyn</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2734</link>
		<dc:creator>cdgwyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 22:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2734</guid>
		<description>Where can I get a t-shirt with this on it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where can I get a t-shirt with this on it?</p>
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		<title>By: msf</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2733</link>
		<dc:creator>msf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 21:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2733</guid>
		<description>This gives one a buzz even better than the light coming thru a stained-glass window! And, based in reality - fantastic, thanks for the reporting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This gives one a buzz even better than the light coming thru a stained-glass window! And, based in reality &#8211; fantastic, thanks for the reporting.</p>
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		<title>By: Monte Davis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2732</link>
		<dc:creator>Monte Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 17:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2732</guid>
		<description>Genetic distance is certainly a better measure than the old taxonomy growing out of gross morphology. I suspect that this tree itself will change a lot as we continue to move from &quot;beanbag genetics&quot; toward understanding gene regulation and interaction. It will give more weight to a base-pair substitution in a high-level regulatory gene, which could alter a whole developmental cascade, than to one in Yet Another intron.

(Of course, that view in itself betrays metazoan self-regard. Those who don&#039;t &lt;i&gt;have&lt;/i&gt; developmental cascades don&#039;t think they&#039;re such a big deal...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Genetic distance is certainly a better measure than the old taxonomy growing out of gross morphology. I suspect that this tree itself will change a lot as we continue to move from &#8220;beanbag genetics&#8221; toward understanding gene regulation and interaction. It will give more weight to a base-pair substitution in a high-level regulatory gene, which could alter a whole developmental cascade, than to one in Yet Another intron.</p>
<p>(Of course, that view in itself betrays metazoan self-regard. Those who don&#8217;t <i>have</i> developmental cascades don&#8217;t think they&#8217;re such a big deal&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: yagwara</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/comment-page-1/#comment-2731</link>
		<dc:creator>yagwara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 17:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/03/03/tree-of-life-c-2006/#comment-2731</guid>
		<description>Wow, that&#039;s beautiful.  I had heard that the diversity we can see doesn&#039;t correlate well with biochemical diversity... but this is very vivid.  It has changed my view of the world.

By the way, not that you would, but please don&#039;t ever be misled by the comment counts.  I suspect the typical reader, like me, comes to sites like Pharyngula or The Loom for science we&#039;d have trouble understanding in journals or finding in the popular press.  Controversial topics are the side dishes.  But in the comments, it&#039;s easy to throw in your two cents&#039; worth on a report about outrageous stupidity; on a post like this, it&#039;s hard to say much but &quot;wow, that&#039;s beautiful&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, that&#8217;s beautiful.  I had heard that the diversity we can see doesn&#8217;t correlate well with biochemical diversity&#8230; but this is very vivid.  It has changed my view of the world.</p>
<p>By the way, not that you would, but please don&#8217;t ever be misled by the comment counts.  I suspect the typical reader, like me, comes to sites like Pharyngula or The Loom for science we&#8217;d have trouble understanding in journals or finding in the popular press.  Controversial topics are the side dishes.  But in the comments, it&#8217;s easy to throw in your two cents&#8217; worth on a report about outrageous stupidity; on a post like this, it&#8217;s hard to say much but &#8220;wow, that&#8217;s beautiful&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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