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	<title>Comments on: Sexual Cannibals in Gould&#8217;s Shadow</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/</link>
	<description>A blog about life, past and future. Written by DISCOVER contributing editor and columnist Carl Zimmer.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:00:24 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Kari</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3757</link>
		<dc:creator>Kari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 05:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3757</guid>
		<description>I have always heard that if a Praying Mantis feels threatened by a human it will spit in the eyes, which causes the person to go blind. Is this defense mechanism true of a Praying Mantis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have always heard that if a Praying Mantis feels threatened by a human it will spit in the eyes, which causes the person to go blind. Is this defense mechanism true of a Praying Mantis?</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3756</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 05:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3756</guid>
		<description>As I recall (my copy of the book is AWOL), Sterelny makes the point that Dawkins&#039;s and Gould&#039;s points of view are not as discrepant as some make them out to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I recall (my copy of the book is AWOL), Sterelny makes the point that Dawkins&#8217;s and Gould&#8217;s points of view are not as discrepant as some make them out to be.</p>
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		<title>By: microecos</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3755</link>
		<dc:creator>microecos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Sep 2006 02:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3755</guid>
		<description>The fact that sexual cannibalism occurs primarily in predatory arthropods with large, agressive females argues strongly for exaptation.  Gould might call it &quot;inherent potential.&quot;  Of course some of the elaborate evasive manuevers of males, especially in spiders does suggest some selective modification

I think the Gould/Dawkins dichotomy, like most, is false.  Most evolutionary features, and certainly many behaviors are shaped by a complex interplay of adaptation and exaptation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that sexual cannibalism occurs primarily in predatory arthropods with large, agressive females argues strongly for exaptation.  Gould might call it &#8220;inherent potential.&#8221;  Of course some of the elaborate evasive manuevers of males, especially in spiders does suggest some selective modification</p>
<p>I think the Gould/Dawkins dichotomy, like most, is false.  Most evolutionary features, and certainly many behaviors are shaped by a complex interplay of adaptation and exaptation.</p>
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		<title>By: Madison Guy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3754</link>
		<dc:creator>Madison Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Sep 2006 01:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3754</guid>
		<description>The science in your Times article was interesting from the perspective of evolutionary biology and the evidence seemed persuasive that Gould overstated his case. Still, I&#039;m not too happy with the sensationalistic way the Times played it.

And about those photos? Don&#039;t these insects have blood? Pretty spotless (though lovely) white seamless background...

&lt;a href=&quot;http://letterfromhere.blogspot.com/2006/09/hyper-castrating-female-insects-new.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Hyper-castrating female insects: New York Times, what&#039;s your problem? You&#039;re creeping me out. Why?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The science in your Times article was interesting from the perspective of evolutionary biology and the evidence seemed persuasive that Gould overstated his case. Still, I&#8217;m not too happy with the sensationalistic way the Times played it.</p>
<p>And about those photos? Don&#8217;t these insects have blood? Pretty spotless (though lovely) white seamless background&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://letterfromhere.blogspot.com/2006/09/hyper-castrating-female-insects-new.html" rel="nofollow"> Hyper-castrating female insects: New York Times, what&#8217;s your problem? You&#8217;re creeping me out. Why?</a></p>
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		<title>By: Clastito</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3753</link>
		<dc:creator>Clastito</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 22:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3753</guid>
		<description>Well sure, avoiding a hungry predator is adaptive. But the point is, it probably  did not evolve in the context of copulation. Same thing with the female&#039;s predatory urges. They probably were there beforehand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well sure, avoiding a hungry predator is adaptive. But the point is, it probably  did not evolve in the context of copulation. Same thing with the female&#8217;s predatory urges. They probably were there beforehand.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Sadoyama</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3752</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Sadoyama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 19:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3752</guid>
		<description>The photo of the mantids on a stark white background drew me in immediately. I knew it had to be a Catherine Chalmers piece. I have her book, &lt;i&gt;Food Chain&lt;/i&gt;, on my shelf. Gorgeous!

David Liittschwager and Susan Middleton use a similar style (albeit with a different focus), photographing rare native Hawaiian animals and plants against monochrome backdrops to stunning effect in their books &lt;i&gt;Archipelago&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;Remains of a Rainbow&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The photo of the mantids on a stark white background drew me in immediately. I knew it had to be a Catherine Chalmers piece. I have her book, <i>Food Chain</i>, on my shelf. Gorgeous!</p>
<p>David Liittschwager and Susan Middleton use a similar style (albeit with a different focus), photographing rare native Hawaiian animals and plants against monochrome backdrops to stunning effect in their books <i>Archipelago</i> and <i>Remains of a Rainbow</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: sharon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3751</link>
		<dc:creator>sharon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 18:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3751</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;The reasons sexual cannibalism doesn&#039;t work in other species is because males can mate many times after mating, so they have a reason to evolve ways of surviving after mating. ...etc.&lt;/em&gt;

Yes, and males tend to forget they focus on the sole act of &quot;mating&quot; (often with as many females as they can), while females are usually looking out for the interests of the offspring, namely for a commitment (not that *all* females stick around to raise their young, either)... but, the male mantid offers &lt;strong&gt;nothing&lt;/strong&gt;, except fulfilment on an instinct driven inside a brain that&#039;s about the size of a butt of a needle, so &lt;strong&gt;what has the female&lt;/strong&gt; possibly got to gain by allowing the male live? There&#039;s nothing in instinct there, telling the female &quot;this guy is going to stick around for the long haul&quot;, might as well get what she can while the getting is good --&lt;em&gt;dinner is the least he can do&lt;/em&gt;.

Headless Males Make Great Lovers by Marty Crump
How can it be? Copulatory movements in mantids are controlled by masses of nerve tissue in the abdomen rather than the brain ...
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/121992.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/121992.html&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The reasons sexual cannibalism doesn&#8217;t work in other species is because males can mate many times after mating, so they have a reason to evolve ways of surviving after mating. &#8230;etc.</em></p>
<p>Yes, and males tend to forget they focus on the sole act of &#8220;mating&#8221; (often with as many females as they can), while females are usually looking out for the interests of the offspring, namely for a commitment (not that *all* females stick around to raise their young, either)&#8230; but, the male mantid offers <strong>nothing</strong>, except fulfilment on an instinct driven inside a brain that&#8217;s about the size of a butt of a needle, so <strong>what has the female</strong> possibly got to gain by allowing the male live? There&#8217;s nothing in instinct there, telling the female &#8220;this guy is going to stick around for the long haul&#8221;, might as well get what she can while the getting is good &#8211;<em>dinner is the least he can do</em>.</p>
<p>Headless Males Make Great Lovers by Marty Crump<br />
How can it be? Copulatory movements in mantids are controlled by masses of nerve tissue in the abdomen rather than the brain &#8230;<br />
<a href="http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/121992.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/121992.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: TAW</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3750</link>
		<dc:creator>TAW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 16:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3750</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That&#039;s because when the male spider dies, his sexual organs inflate and get stuck in the female.&lt;/i&gt;

whoa, wicked.  do they inflate before he dies or after? if it&#039;s after, how do they do that?

I think one huge detail has been left out though. If the males survived mating, would they be able to mate again?

In some species it could be something similar to ageing. They are past their mating abilities, so it doesn&#039;t matter what happens to them and so they don&#039;t evolve techniques to survive mating. The reasons sexual cannibalism doesn&#039;t work in other species is because males can mate many times after mating, so they have a reason to evolve ways of surviving after mating. ...etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That&#8217;s because when the male spider dies, his sexual organs inflate and get stuck in the female.</i></p>
<p>whoa, wicked.  do they inflate before he dies or after? if it&#8217;s after, how do they do that?</p>
<p>I think one huge detail has been left out though. If the males survived mating, would they be able to mate again?</p>
<p>In some species it could be something similar to ageing. They are past their mating abilities, so it doesn&#8217;t matter what happens to them and so they don&#8217;t evolve techniques to survive mating. The reasons sexual cannibalism doesn&#8217;t work in other species is because males can mate many times after mating, so they have a reason to evolve ways of surviving after mating. &#8230;etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3749</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 16:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3749</guid>
		<description>Some research just come out revealing that redback males will preferentially mate with immature females (piercing their exoskeltons in the process as the female doesn&#039;t have a genital opening till her last molt). The reason, apparently, is that in so doing they can mate in a position that *doesn&#039;t* put them close to their mate&#039;s jaws, and thus lets them escape to mate again. So even a seemingly clear-cut adaptationist mating behavior seems to be more complex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some research just come out revealing that redback males will preferentially mate with immature females (piercing their exoskeltons in the process as the female doesn&#8217;t have a genital opening till her last molt). The reason, apparently, is that in so doing they can mate in a position that *doesn&#8217;t* put them close to their mate&#8217;s jaws, and thus lets them escape to mate again. So even a seemingly clear-cut adaptationist mating behavior seems to be more complex.</p>
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		<title>By: coturnix</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3748</link>
		<dc:creator>coturnix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 13:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3748</guid>
		<description>It is definitely &quot;praying&quot; as the most famous species is &lt;i&gt;Mantis religiosa&lt;/i&gt;, i.e., &quot;religious mantid&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is definitely &#8220;praying&#8221; as the most famous species is <i>Mantis religiosa</i>, i.e., &#8220;religious mantid&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: MadGenius</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3747</link>
		<dc:creator>MadGenius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 10:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3747</guid>
		<description>Haven&#039;t read Dawkins vs Gould, but I quite enjoyed Andrew Brown&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/103-9359791-8599057?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&amp;field-keywords=darwin+wars&amp;Go.x=0&amp;Go.y=0&amp;Go=Go&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Darwin Wars&lt;/a&gt; is quite good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haven&#8217;t read Dawkins vs Gould, but I quite enjoyed Andrew Brown&#8217;s <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/103-9359791-8599057?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&amp;field-keywords=darwin+wars&amp;Go.x=0&amp;Go.y=0&amp;Go=Go" rel="nofollow">The Darwin Wars</a> is quite good.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Knell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3746</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Knell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3746</guid>
		<description>Nice essay Carl. I think that, while Gould may have overstated the case hugely, he did biology a service by highlighting the role of constraints and phylogeny in evolution and making sure that people thought about them before leaping of into happy adaptationism. Having just gone to the ISBE (International society for Behavioral Ecology) conference and seen a few talks that were really going too far into the just-so story end of things, I think that his work was necessary to make people at least a little more circumspect.

Sharon: I understood that it&#039;s &quot;praying&quot; because the way they hold their fore-legs makes them look as though they&#039;re, well, praying. I&#039;m not sure that the &quot;count the Google hits&quot; technique is an authoritative way of checking spelling, although a social relativist might say that it is...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice essay Carl. I think that, while Gould may have overstated the case hugely, he did biology a service by highlighting the role of constraints and phylogeny in evolution and making sure that people thought about them before leaping of into happy adaptationism. Having just gone to the ISBE (International society for Behavioral Ecology) conference and seen a few talks that were really going too far into the just-so story end of things, I think that his work was necessary to make people at least a little more circumspect.</p>
<p>Sharon: I understood that it&#8217;s &#8220;praying&#8221; because the way they hold their fore-legs makes them look as though they&#8217;re, well, praying. I&#8217;m not sure that the &#8220;count the Google hits&#8221; technique is an authoritative way of checking spelling, although a social relativist might say that it is&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: sharon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3745</link>
		<dc:creator>sharon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 06:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3745</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;...mantid...
Posted by: coturnix &#124; September 5, 2006 12:55 AM&lt;/em&gt;

By gosh, you are right.
A google search revealed
Results 1 - 10 of about 63,100 for &lt;strong&gt;praying mantid&lt;/strong&gt;.
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,470,000 for &lt;strong&gt;preying mantid.&lt;/strong&gt;
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,770,000 for &lt;strong&gt;preying mantis.&lt;/strong&gt;
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,620,000 for &lt;strong&gt;praying mantis&lt;/strong&gt;
prey or pray?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8230;mantid&#8230;<br />
Posted by: coturnix | September 5, 2006 12:55 AM</em></p>
<p>By gosh, you are right.<br />
A google search revealed<br />
Results 1 &#8211; 10 of about 63,100 for <strong>praying mantid</strong>.<br />
Results 1 &#8211; 10 of about 1,470,000 for <strong>preying mantid.</strong><br />
Results 1 &#8211; 10 of about 1,770,000 for <strong>preying mantis.</strong><br />
Results 1 &#8211; 10 of about 1,620,000 for <strong>praying mantis</strong><br />
prey or pray?</p>
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		<title>By: sharon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3744</link>
		<dc:creator>sharon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 06:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3744</guid>
		<description>Carl, I think you&#039;ve duplicated the first two paragraphs of your article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl, I think you&#8217;ve duplicated the first two paragraphs of your article.</p>
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		<title>By: coturnix</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3743</link>
		<dc:creator>coturnix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 05:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3743</guid>
		<description>...mantid...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;mantid&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: coturnix</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/comment-page-1/#comment-3742</link>
		<dc:creator>coturnix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 05:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2006/09/04/sexual-cannibals-in-goulds-shadow/#comment-3742</guid>
		<description>As you could probably guess, I am &lt;a href=&quot;http://scienceblogs.com/clock/2006/07/friday_weird_sex_blogging_losi.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;pretty Gouldian&lt;/a&gt; when it comes to matid cannibalism...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As you could probably guess, I am <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/clock/2006/07/friday_weird_sex_blogging_losi.php" rel="nofollow">pretty Gouldian</a> when it comes to matid cannibalism&#8230;</p>
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