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	<title>Comments on: Of Bacteria and Throw Pillows</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/</link>
	<description>A blog about life, past and future. Written by DISCOVER contributing editor and columnist Carl Zimmer.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:00:24 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: If it looks designed&#8230; &#171; Thoughts about thinking</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-6792</link>
		<dc:creator>If it looks designed&#8230; &#171; Thoughts about thinking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-6792</guid>
		<description>[...] flagellum, which are a pretty darned complex piece of kit that allow bacteria to move around.  But as explained here there is a perfectly sensible explanation for them, from origin to as we see them [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] flagellum, which are a pretty darned complex piece of kit that allow bacteria to move around.  But as explained here there is a perfectly sensible explanation for them, from origin to as we see them [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Björn Brembs</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-6525</link>
		<dc:creator>Björn Brembs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-6525</guid>
		<description>Mr. Wagner,

We passed the level of Darwinism almost 100 years ago. Where were you during that time?
Or do you also refer to mechanics as Newtonianism?
One fundamental cornerstone of evolutionary theory is genetics. With more and more genomes pouring in, so is the evidence for &quot;emergence of the highly organized structures, processes and systems that exist in bacteria and other living organisms&quot;.

I doubt you will find any living scientist today claiming that mutation and selection are sufficient - they are necessary. So is genetics, including epigenetics and population genetics. 
Another necessary feature is degeneracy. It is hard to explain degeneracy without evolution.
There are a few more mechanisms which are important for evolution to work. They&#039;re covered in most entry-level textbooks.
&quot;Darwinism&quot;? This is 2008 man and we have the internet. You have some catching up to do.

In the last 100 years or so, biology has developed entire disciplines providing plenty of evidence, not just one example. Any entry-level textbook should be sufficient for the average reader.

If you need one single particular example because actual education is such a waste of time, you may read the story about pax6 (or eyeless in Drosophila). However, of course one single example doesn&#039;t cover all the evidence out there and you will easily find quite a number of things not explained by this single example (obviously). But you can find evidence for whatever else you&#039;re missing in standard textbooks - or you can ask on blogs of journalists for the more layman explanations if that is more like your reading level.

Other than that, though, what is your alternative explanation? Magic man done it? Then my question is: how did he do it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Wagner,</p>
<p>We passed the level of Darwinism almost 100 years ago. Where were you during that time?<br />
Or do you also refer to mechanics as Newtonianism?<br />
One fundamental cornerstone of evolutionary theory is genetics. With more and more genomes pouring in, so is the evidence for &#8220;emergence of the highly organized structures, processes and systems that exist in bacteria and other living organisms&#8221;.</p>
<p>I doubt you will find any living scientist today claiming that mutation and selection are sufficient &#8211; they are necessary. So is genetics, including epigenetics and population genetics.<br />
Another necessary feature is degeneracy. It is hard to explain degeneracy without evolution.<br />
There are a few more mechanisms which are important for evolution to work. They&#8217;re covered in most entry-level textbooks.<br />
&#8220;Darwinism&#8221;? This is 2008 man and we have the internet. You have some catching up to do.</p>
<p>In the last 100 years or so, biology has developed entire disciplines providing plenty of evidence, not just one example. Any entry-level textbook should be sufficient for the average reader.</p>
<p>If you need one single particular example because actual education is such a waste of time, you may read the story about pax6 (or eyeless in Drosophila). However, of course one single example doesn&#8217;t cover all the evidence out there and you will easily find quite a number of things not explained by this single example (obviously). But you can find evidence for whatever else you&#8217;re missing in standard textbooks &#8211; or you can ask on blogs of journalists for the more layman explanations if that is more like your reading level.</p>
<p>Other than that, though, what is your alternative explanation? Magic man done it? Then my question is: how did he do it?</p>
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		<title>By: Owlmirror</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-964</link>
		<dc:creator>Owlmirror</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 03:44:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-964</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;...Does Bishop Charlie Wagner believe in air? Why? Has he ever seen it?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

*snort*

Charlie believes in lots of things that he&#039;s never seen, including a steady-state universe, an eternal regression of life, preprogrammed genetic front-loading, and all sorts of other hoaxes.

Like all crackpots, he believes most in what he imagines to be true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8230;Does Bishop Charlie Wagner believe in air? Why? Has he ever seen it?</p></blockquote>
<p>*snort*</p>
<p>Charlie believes in lots of things that he&#8217;s never seen, including a steady-state universe, an eternal regression of life, preprogrammed genetic front-loading, and all sorts of other hoaxes.</p>
<p>Like all crackpots, he believes most in what he imagines to be true.</p>
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		<title>By: Bishop Pontoppodan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-963</link>
		<dc:creator>Bishop Pontoppodan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-963</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;&quot;It is difficult to over-estimate the power this kind of denial has...&quot;&lt;/b&gt;

True.

It is this denial that has allowed darwinism to dishonor science and the scientific method for almost 150 years.

Charlie Wagner
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.charliewagner.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.charliewagner.com&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>&#8220;It is difficult to over-estimate the power this kind of denial has&#8230;&#8221;</b></p>
<p>True.</p>
<p>It is this denial that has allowed darwinism to dishonor science and the scientific method for almost 150 years.</p>
<p>Charlie Wagner<br />
<a href="http://www.charliewagner.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.charliewagner.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Pteryxx</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-962</link>
		<dc:creator>Pteryxx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-962</guid>
		<description>...Does Bishop Charlie Wagner believe in air?  Why? Has he ever seen it?  How about earthquakes?  Or gravity?  Or the Estonian language?

Does he believe in denial?

&quot;If it is important to someone in denial that fish not swim, then they can look you straight in the eye and tell you that fish don&#039;t swim and believe it themselves. It is difficult to over-estimate the power this kind of denial has...

&quot;One way of telling about this is when the idea is about an area that you are unwilling to research because you fear finding out you are wrong.&quot;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://blainn.com/abuse/denial.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://blainn.com/abuse/denial.html&lt;/a&gt;

-Peace, Pteryxx</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;Does Bishop Charlie Wagner believe in air?  Why? Has he ever seen it?  How about earthquakes?  Or gravity?  Or the Estonian language?</p>
<p>Does he believe in denial?</p>
<p>&#8220;If it is important to someone in denial that fish not swim, then they can look you straight in the eye and tell you that fish don&#8217;t swim and believe it themselves. It is difficult to over-estimate the power this kind of denial has&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;One way of telling about this is when the idea is about an area that you are unwilling to research because you fear finding out you are wrong.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://blainn.com/abuse/denial.html" rel="nofollow">http://blainn.com/abuse/denial.html</a></p>
<p>-Peace, Pteryxx</p>
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		<title>By: Bishop Pontoppodan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-961</link>
		<dc:creator>Bishop Pontoppodan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-961</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Sigh. What do you want? The science books describe the empirical evidence that you demand. If you need more detail, many of the papers are available for free download on the web.&lt;/b&gt;

So basically you cannot address the question in a plausible or coherent way. Don&#039;t feel bad. No &quot;real scientists&quot; that I&#039;ve asked this question can either.

The notion that random mutation and natural selection can generate the highly organized structures, processes and systems found in living organisms is the greatest hoax in the history of science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Sigh. What do you want? The science books describe the empirical evidence that you demand. If you need more detail, many of the papers are available for free download on the web.</b></p>
<p>So basically you cannot address the question in a plausible or coherent way. Don&#8217;t feel bad. No &#8220;real scientists&#8221; that I&#8217;ve asked this question can either.</p>
<p>The notion that random mutation and natural selection can generate the highly organized structures, processes and systems found in living organisms is the greatest hoax in the history of science.</p>
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		<title>By: Owlmirror</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-960</link>
		<dc:creator>Owlmirror</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-960</guid>
		<description>[When asked if he had read any science textbooks or popular science books, Charlie Wagner replied:]

&lt;blockquote&gt;Irrelevant.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In other words, &quot;no&quot;.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Answer the question.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sigh.  What do you &lt;i&gt;want&lt;/i&gt;?  The science books describe the empirical evidence that you demand.  If you need more detail, many of the papers are available for free download on the web.  What, do you want a personal hand-held tour of every single laboratory, with the exact genetic sequences explained to you personally in the simplest language possible?

&lt;blockquote&gt;The ball is in your court...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No.  Science has built up its consensus over the past few hundred years by having scientists who educated themselves in what was known up until that point. They then did their own work; they made the actual effort to find and describe additional evidence, which either confirmed and extended the existing knowledge, or sometimes, rarely, led to a new scientific paradigm.

But they &lt;i&gt;always&lt;/i&gt; educated themselves first, and &lt;i&gt;always&lt;/i&gt; bolstered their arguments with evidence.

The ball has &lt;i&gt;always&lt;/i&gt; been in the court of the contrarians and denialists and crackpots to make their case from actual evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[When asked if he had read any science textbooks or popular science books, Charlie Wagner replied:]</p>
<blockquote><p>Irrelevant.</p></blockquote>
<p>In other words, &#8220;no&#8221;.</p>
<blockquote><p>Answer the question.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sigh.  What do you <i>want</i>?  The science books describe the empirical evidence that you demand.  If you need more detail, many of the papers are available for free download on the web.  What, do you want a personal hand-held tour of every single laboratory, with the exact genetic sequences explained to you personally in the simplest language possible?</p>
<blockquote><p>The ball is in your court&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>No.  Science has built up its consensus over the past few hundred years by having scientists who educated themselves in what was known up until that point. They then did their own work; they made the actual effort to find and describe additional evidence, which either confirmed and extended the existing knowledge, or sometimes, rarely, led to a new scientific paradigm.</p>
<p>But they <i>always</i> educated themselves first, and <i>always</i> bolstered their arguments with evidence.</p>
<p>The ball has <i>always</i> been in the court of the contrarians and denialists and crackpots to make their case from actual evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: Bishop Pontoppodan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-959</link>
		<dc:creator>Bishop Pontoppodan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-959</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Charlie, I know that I, and possibly others, have tried to suggest that you open up the textbooks and read about evolution, cellular biology, genetics, biochemistry, and so on.&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;b&gt;
Have you ever done so?

If you can browse the web, you can read Carl&#039;s Evolution, At the Water&#039;s Edge, Parasite Rex, and now, Microcosm.&lt;/b&gt;

&lt;b&gt;Have you read any of them?&lt;/b&gt;

Irrelevant.

Answer the question. The ball is in your court...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Charlie, I know that I, and possibly others, have tried to suggest that you open up the textbooks and read about evolution, cellular biology, genetics, biochemistry, and so on.</b><br />
<b><br />
Have you ever done so?</p>
<p>If you can browse the web, you can read Carl&#8217;s Evolution, At the Water&#8217;s Edge, Parasite Rex, and now, Microcosm.</b></p>
<p><b>Have you read any of them?</b></p>
<p>Irrelevant.</p>
<p>Answer the question. The ball is in your court&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Owlmirror</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-958</link>
		<dc:creator>Owlmirror</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 00:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-958</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Provide empirical evidence, either observational or experimental, that establishes a plausible or credible nexus between random mutation and natural selection and the emergence of the highly organized structures, processes and systems that exist in bacteria and other living organisms &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Charlie, I know that I, and possibly others, have tried to suggest that you open up the textbooks and &lt;b&gt;read&lt;/b&gt; about evolution, cellular biology, genetics, biochemistry, and so on.

Have you ever done so?

If you can browse the web, you can read Carl&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Evolution&lt;/i&gt;, &lt;i&gt;At the Water&#039;s Edge&lt;/i&gt;, &lt;i&gt;Parasite Rex&lt;/i&gt;, and now, &lt;i&gt;Microcosm&lt;/i&gt;.

Have you read any of them?


If you really think that all of the scientists who have been researching biology and biochemistry and genetics and developmental biology and so on are all wrong, you need to familiarize yourself with all of their fields, and figure out how to actually falsify all of their findings scientifically &#8212; that is, provide evidence that something about biology that is widely understood to be correct, is in fact false, based upon something that you can show clearly and unambiguously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Provide empirical evidence, either observational or experimental, that establishes a plausible or credible nexus between random mutation and natural selection and the emergence of the highly organized structures, processes and systems that exist in bacteria and other living organisms </p></blockquote>
<p>Charlie, I know that I, and possibly others, have tried to suggest that you open up the textbooks and <b>read</b> about evolution, cellular biology, genetics, biochemistry, and so on.</p>
<p>Have you ever done so?</p>
<p>If you can browse the web, you can read Carl&#8217;s <i>Evolution</i>, <i>At the Water&#8217;s Edge</i>, <i>Parasite Rex</i>, and now, <i>Microcosm</i>.</p>
<p>Have you read any of them?</p>
<p>If you really think that all of the scientists who have been researching biology and biochemistry and genetics and developmental biology and so on are all wrong, you need to familiarize yourself with all of their fields, and figure out how to actually falsify all of their findings scientifically &mdash; that is, provide evidence that something about biology that is widely understood to be correct, is in fact false, based upon something that you can show clearly and unambiguously.</p>
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		<title>By: Bishop Pontoppodan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-957</link>
		<dc:creator>Bishop Pontoppodan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-957</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;The operative term for &quot;Bishop Pontoppodan&quot; is &quot;crackpot&quot;. His real name is Charlie Wagner. Many people have tried to argue with him, including real scientists.

He ignores them all, and has for many years.&lt;/b&gt;

There is one way to shut me up:

Answer the  question!

Provide empirical evidence, either observational or experimental, that establishes a plausible or credible nexus between random mutation and natural selection and the emergence of the highly organized structures, processes and systems that exist in bacteria and other living organisms

No one has yet answered this challenge so I slog on....

Charlie Wagner</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>The operative term for &#8220;Bishop Pontoppodan&#8221; is &#8220;crackpot&#8221;. His real name is Charlie Wagner. Many people have tried to argue with him, including real scientists.</p>
<p>He ignores them all, and has for many years.</b></p>
<p>There is one way to shut me up:</p>
<p>Answer the  question!</p>
<p>Provide empirical evidence, either observational or experimental, that establishes a plausible or credible nexus between random mutation and natural selection and the emergence of the highly organized structures, processes and systems that exist in bacteria and other living organisms</p>
<p>No one has yet answered this challenge so I slog on&#8230;.</p>
<p>Charlie Wagner</p>
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		<title>By: Cooper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-956</link>
		<dc:creator>Cooper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 04:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-956</guid>
		<description>Wow, that&#039;s the new ID slogan, huh: &quot;If it looks designed, maybe it is.&quot;  At least their appeal to naive intuition is right out there in the open.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, that&#8217;s the new ID slogan, huh: &#8220;If it looks designed, maybe it is.&#8221;  At least their appeal to naive intuition is right out there in the open.</p>
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		<title>By: jj</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-955</link>
		<dc:creator>jj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 00:38:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-955</guid>
		<description>One of the things that I always find IDer&#039;s can&#039;t explain is the presence of vestigial organs.  If The great designer put all this effort into making all these extremely complex systems, then why does s/he leave some useless structures behind?  I mean, I do have a tail bone, but I don&#039;t have a tail to require balance.  I have an appendix, but it doesn&#039;t have any function (thats arguable), and I&#039;ve got a plica semilunaris, but I sure as hell don&#039;t need it (in fact I hate it, damn crusty eyelids).  I think that&#039;s a point thats overlooked by many ID proponents, and if you bring it up, they normally don&#039;t have a response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the things that I always find IDer&#8217;s can&#8217;t explain is the presence of vestigial organs.  If The great designer put all this effort into making all these extremely complex systems, then why does s/he leave some useless structures behind?  I mean, I do have a tail bone, but I don&#8217;t have a tail to require balance.  I have an appendix, but it doesn&#8217;t have any function (thats arguable), and I&#8217;ve got a plica semilunaris, but I sure as hell don&#8217;t need it (in fact I hate it, damn crusty eyelids).  I think that&#8217;s a point thats overlooked by many ID proponents, and if you bring it up, they normally don&#8217;t have a response.</p>
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		<title>By: jj</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-954</link>
		<dc:creator>jj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 00:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-954</guid>
		<description>One of the things that I always find IDer&#039;s can&#039;t explain is the presence of vestigial organs.  If The great designer put all this effort into making all these extremely complex systems, then why does s/he leave some useless structures behind?  I mean, I do have a tail bone, but I don&#039;t have a tail to require balance.  I have an appendix, but it doesn&#039;t have any function (thats arguable), and I&#039;ve got a plica semilunaris, but I sure as hell don&#039;t need it (in fact I hate it, damn crusty eyelids).  I think that&#039;s a point thats overlooked by many ID proponents, and if you bring it up, they normally don&#039;t have a response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the things that I always find IDer&#8217;s can&#8217;t explain is the presence of vestigial organs.  If The great designer put all this effort into making all these extremely complex systems, then why does s/he leave some useless structures behind?  I mean, I do have a tail bone, but I don&#8217;t have a tail to require balance.  I have an appendix, but it doesn&#8217;t have any function (thats arguable), and I&#8217;ve got a plica semilunaris, but I sure as hell don&#8217;t need it (in fact I hate it, damn crusty eyelids).  I think that&#8217;s a point thats overlooked by many ID proponents, and if you bring it up, they normally don&#8217;t have a response.</p>
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		<title>By: Owlmirror</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-953</link>
		<dc:creator>Owlmirror</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-953</guid>
		<description>The operative term for &quot;Bishop Pontoppodan&quot; is &quot;crackpot&quot;.  His real name is Charlie Wagner.  Many people have tried to argue with him, including real scientists.

He ignores them all, and has for many years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The operative term for &#8220;Bishop Pontoppodan&#8221; is &#8220;crackpot&#8221;.  His real name is Charlie Wagner.  Many people have tried to argue with him, including real scientists.</p>
<p>He ignores them all, and has for many years.</p>
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		<title>By: Jasper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-952</link>
		<dc:creator>Jasper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:39:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-952</guid>
		<description>Along with that throw pillow, there is also a fashionable line of &lt;a href=&quot;http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1865/shamcv7.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;intelligently-designed shams&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Along with that throw pillow, there is also a fashionable line of <a href="http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1865/shamcv7.jpg" rel="nofollow">intelligently-designed shams</a>.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bishop Pontoppodan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-951</link>
		<dc:creator>Bishop Pontoppodan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-951</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;An albino or white rabbit is born, a mutated gene. Snow comes, maybe a lot in a region that never had snow before (global warming-style shift?)...all the brown rabbits get picked off by predators, but the white one is perfectly camoflauged and thus he and all his offspring that inherited his mutation have a survival advantage.&lt;/b&gt;

The operative term is &quot;the emergence of the highly organized structures, processes and systems that exist in bacteria and other living organisms&quot;

Changes in fur color do not meet this criterea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>An albino or white rabbit is born, a mutated gene. Snow comes, maybe a lot in a region that never had snow before (global warming-style shift?)&#8230;all the brown rabbits get picked off by predators, but the white one is perfectly camoflauged and thus he and all his offspring that inherited his mutation have a survival advantage.</b></p>
<p>The operative term is &#8220;the emergence of the highly organized structures, processes and systems that exist in bacteria and other living organisms&#8221;</p>
<p>Changes in fur color do not meet this criterea.</p>
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		<title>By: Christophe Thill</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-950</link>
		<dc:creator>Christophe Thill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:29:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-950</guid>
		<description>&quot;But there are still people ready to sell you an intelligently designed flagellum throw pillow (or beer stein...&quot;

I&#039;d never buy such a thing; but if I did, I&#039;d call it Ben...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But there are still people ready to sell you an intelligently designed flagellum throw pillow (or beer stein&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d never buy such a thing; but if I did, I&#8217;d call it Ben&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: carolyn</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-949</link>
		<dc:creator>carolyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-949</guid>
		<description>I see random mutation and natural selection linked everywhere!  that is the point!  An albino or white rabbit is born, a mutated gene.  Snow comes, maybe a lot in a region that never had snow before (global warming-style shift?)...all the brown rabbits get picked off by predators, but the white one is perfectly camoflauged and thus he and all his offspring that inherited his mutation have a survival advantage.
I was born without hip sockets...me and my offspring that inherited this mutation are very fast, but can also &quot;juke&quot; (move side to side, change direction quickly) well, so we are have an advantage on soccer, rugby, and football fields, as well as basketball courts.  Neat, huh?
In other words, what the heck are you talking about? Maybe I am not understanding you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see random mutation and natural selection linked everywhere!  that is the point!  An albino or white rabbit is born, a mutated gene.  Snow comes, maybe a lot in a region that never had snow before (global warming-style shift?)&#8230;all the brown rabbits get picked off by predators, but the white one is perfectly camoflauged and thus he and all his offspring that inherited his mutation have a survival advantage.<br />
I was born without hip sockets&#8230;me and my offspring that inherited this mutation are very fast, but can also &#8220;juke&#8221; (move side to side, change direction quickly) well, so we are have an advantage on soccer, rugby, and football fields, as well as basketball courts.  Neat, huh?<br />
In other words, what the heck are you talking about? Maybe I am not understanding you.</p>
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		<title>By: Bishop Pontoppodan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-948</link>
		<dc:creator>Bishop Pontoppodan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-948</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;&quot;Originally, creationists claimed that structures in E. coli showed clear evidence of being created--they were complex, made up of lots of parts, and seemed to work like manmade machines. The flagellum--the tail E. coli spins hundreds of times a second--was one of their favorite examples. It reminded them of car engines, of outboard motors.&quot; &lt;/b&gt;

The problem is not evolution, it is darwinism.

Only a fool would deny evolution.

Only a greater fool would embrace darwinism as the mechanism.

There is not one shred of empirical evidence, either observational or experimental, that establishes a plausible or credible nexus between random mutation and natural selection and the emergence of the highly organized structures, processes and systems that exist in bacteria and other living organisms</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>&#8220;Originally, creationists claimed that structures in E. coli showed clear evidence of being created&#8211;they were complex, made up of lots of parts, and seemed to work like manmade machines. The flagellum&#8211;the tail E. coli spins hundreds of times a second&#8211;was one of their favorite examples. It reminded them of car engines, of outboard motors.&#8221; </b></p>
<p>The problem is not evolution, it is darwinism.</p>
<p>Only a fool would deny evolution.</p>
<p>Only a greater fool would embrace darwinism as the mechanism.</p>
<p>There is not one shred of empirical evidence, either observational or experimental, that establishes a plausible or credible nexus between random mutation and natural selection and the emergence of the highly organized structures, processes and systems that exist in bacteria and other living organisms</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/comment-page-1/#comment-947</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/06/24/of-bacteria-and-throw-pillows/#comment-947</guid>
		<description>One of ID&#039;s ideas on the Flagellum that hasn&#039;t gotten much press is that irreducible complexity is a feature of human intelligent designs.  It isn&#039;t.

Take a car.  Remove the radio, the air conditioning and the seat heaters and it still gets you to work.  These things weren&#039;t in the original designs.  They were added later.  You could say that the car&#039;s design evolved.  But you can also remove the spare tire, half the oil, half the gas. It will still get you to work.  Cars are designed with redundancy and overcapacity for reliability.

I have a pair of headphones.  It has a male/female connector set in the middle of the cord.  If you connect it to your computer and stand up, instead of breaking the connector pops free.  So, you then have a length of cord, and a headphone.  Are these bits of any value on their own?  Well, the connectors are standard mini jacks.  So the headphone part still works as a headphone.  The remaining cord is long enough to reach my shirt pocket, so is convenient with an mp3 player.

But how about the cord?  Well, i have a shirt pocket sized computer, a Nokia N800.  It has speakers, a headphone jack, and a built in FM radio. It turns out that you can play the FM radio, but you need an antenna.  The unit is designed to use the cord of your headphones for this. You don&#039;t need the headphones, per se. Just the cord works fine. So the cord without the headphones can be used to play FM radio over the N800&#039;s speakers.

And that&#039;s the way things are designed by humans.  Irreducible complexity is uncommon, and often undesirable. Especially when there is little environmental pressure to reduce the design to the absolute minimum.  Of course, organisms often have such pressure, so minimalist designs pop up in nature with reasonable frequency, though not always.

Other examples are easy to spot.  Does your house have more than one bathroom?  More than one door to the outside?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of ID&#8217;s ideas on the Flagellum that hasn&#8217;t gotten much press is that irreducible complexity is a feature of human intelligent designs.  It isn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Take a car.  Remove the radio, the air conditioning and the seat heaters and it still gets you to work.  These things weren&#8217;t in the original designs.  They were added later.  You could say that the car&#8217;s design evolved.  But you can also remove the spare tire, half the oil, half the gas. It will still get you to work.  Cars are designed with redundancy and overcapacity for reliability.</p>
<p>I have a pair of headphones.  It has a male/female connector set in the middle of the cord.  If you connect it to your computer and stand up, instead of breaking the connector pops free.  So, you then have a length of cord, and a headphone.  Are these bits of any value on their own?  Well, the connectors are standard mini jacks.  So the headphone part still works as a headphone.  The remaining cord is long enough to reach my shirt pocket, so is convenient with an mp3 player.</p>
<p>But how about the cord?  Well, i have a shirt pocket sized computer, a Nokia N800.  It has speakers, a headphone jack, and a built in FM radio. It turns out that you can play the FM radio, but you need an antenna.  The unit is designed to use the cord of your headphones for this. You don&#8217;t need the headphones, per se. Just the cord works fine. So the cord without the headphones can be used to play FM radio over the N800&#8242;s speakers.</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s the way things are designed by humans.  Irreducible complexity is uncommon, and often undesirable. Especially when there is little environmental pressure to reduce the design to the absolute minimum.  Of course, organisms often have such pressure, so minimalist designs pop up in nature with reasonable frequency, though not always.</p>
<p>Other examples are easy to spot.  Does your house have more than one bathroom?  More than one door to the outside?</p>
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