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	<title>Comments on: Dawn of the Picasso Fish</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/</link>
	<description>A blog about life, past and future. Written by DISCOVER contributing editor and columnist Carl Zimmer.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 01:38:31 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Koninja</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/comment-page-2/#comment-26470</link>
		<dc:creator>Koninja</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 02:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/#comment-26470</guid>
		<description>also, where are the references for this article and who is the author? I&#039;ve found another article from which this one quotes whole paragraphs word for word.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>also, where are the references for this article and who is the author? I&#8217;ve found another article from which this one quotes whole paragraphs word for word.</p>
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		<title>By: Koninja</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/comment-page-2/#comment-26466</link>
		<dc:creator>Koninja</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/#comment-26466</guid>
		<description>That is almost relevant to my point.

 Debating, discussing, and questioning is good yes. But there is no reason to attack your doctor, using your metaphor. Assuming your doctor metaphor is directly in response to my comment, you are assuming that Charlie, or anyone with an opinion different than yours for that matter, is insane and has no clue what they are talking about. 
You proved my point by neglecting most of what I said, and clearly stating your own bias.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is almost relevant to my point.</p>
<p> Debating, discussing, and questioning is good yes. But there is no reason to attack your doctor, using your metaphor. Assuming your doctor metaphor is directly in response to my comment, you are assuming that Charlie, or anyone with an opinion different than yours for that matter, is insane and has no clue what they are talking about.<br />
You proved my point by neglecting most of what I said, and clearly stating your own bias.</p>
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		<title>By: Noodly James</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/comment-page-2/#comment-26404</link>
		<dc:creator>Noodly James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 00:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/#comment-26404</guid>
		<description>&quot;Natural selection is a trivial
effect that has nowhere near the power vested in it by evolutionists.
True, it can change the frequency of alleles in populations under
selection pressure, but no evolutionist has ever demonstrated that these
changes in gene frequency can ever lead to new processes, structures or
organisms.&quot;

Incorrect. New processes have been observed being initiated (lactose tolerance, strictly unicellular algae become strictly 8 celled balls of algae, new muscles in lizards, new lengths of gut in lizards, new bones structures),  new organisms, by this you mean speciation, yes it has been observed, so has the formation of new genera. Natural selection may be a trivial effect for you. It is not such a trivial effect when a population is placed under selective pressure. 

As for the last poster above me, you have obviously never attempted to have anything published or defend your thesis.  Science is very much about having everything 100% in accordance the scientific method. This applies to the terminology as well. I will assume that if your doctor came in and proclaimed that your washer bearings were not intact and that he needed to remove your eyes to fix them, you would likely not agree that this was the best course of action?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Natural selection is a trivial<br />
effect that has nowhere near the power vested in it by evolutionists.<br />
True, it can change the frequency of alleles in populations under<br />
selection pressure, but no evolutionist has ever demonstrated that these<br />
changes in gene frequency can ever lead to new processes, structures or<br />
organisms.&#8221;</p>
<p>Incorrect. New processes have been observed being initiated (lactose tolerance, strictly unicellular algae become strictly 8 celled balls of algae, new muscles in lizards, new lengths of gut in lizards, new bones structures),  new organisms, by this you mean speciation, yes it has been observed, so has the formation of new genera. Natural selection may be a trivial effect for you. It is not such a trivial effect when a population is placed under selective pressure. </p>
<p>As for the last poster above me, you have obviously never attempted to have anything published or defend your thesis.  Science is very much about having everything 100% in accordance the scientific method. This applies to the terminology as well. I will assume that if your doctor came in and proclaimed that your washer bearings were not intact and that he needed to remove your eyes to fix them, you would likely not agree that this was the best course of action?</p>
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		<title>By: Koninja</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-26209</link>
		<dc:creator>Koninja</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 21:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/#comment-26209</guid>
		<description>Oh my goodness! you guys at the top bicker like children!

 The second that Charlie commented on how the article was not absolutely perfect, you jumped down his throat, dubbing him a creationist, and attack his every word! Whichever side is actually right, you guys will not soon find out because you won&#039;t even listen to the other without bias.

 Judge each comment with a bias against it, or don&#039;t judge at all. sheesh. this is science, not politics!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh my goodness! you guys at the top bicker like children!</p>
<p> The second that Charlie commented on how the article was not absolutely perfect, you jumped down his throat, dubbing him a creationist, and attack his every word! Whichever side is actually right, you guys will not soon find out because you won&#8217;t even listen to the other without bias.</p>
<p> Judge each comment with a bias against it, or don&#8217;t judge at all. sheesh. this is science, not politics!</p>
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		<title>By: Evrimin kay</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-20495</link>
		<dc:creator>Evrimin kay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 15:44:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/#comment-20495</guid>
		<description>[...] fossils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Intermediate Forms Between Classes - SkepticWiki Dawn of the Picasso Fish &#124; The Loom &#124; Discover Magazine ....Yine de ben tatmin olmad</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] fossils &#8211; Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Intermediate Forms Between Classes &#8211; SkepticWiki Dawn of the Picasso Fish | The Loom | Discover Magazine &#8230;.Yine de ben tatmin olmad</p>
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		<title>By: Interesting Stuff: Early June 2009 &#171; The Outer Hoard</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-19172</link>
		<dc:creator>Interesting Stuff: Early June 2009 &#171; The Outer Hoard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 07:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/#comment-19172</guid>
		<description>[...] have read were it not nominated for the prize. Of the articles that I had already read, perhaps this is the best (and indeed I linked to it in an earlier installment of this series) but it would have [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] have read were it not nominated for the prize. Of the articles that I had already read, perhaps this is the best (and indeed I linked to it in an earlier installment of this series) but it would have [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave S</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-16564</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/#comment-16564</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, I am forced to admit that this time Charlie has made some valid points.  In order for this to be a really good example of random mutation and natural selection one must determine the mutations involved and demonstrate their morphological effects and their selective advantage.  Until this is done there are still critical pieces of the puzzle missing.

Now let&#039;s see, I know, how about screening for mutations in regulatory regions of hox genes in flatfish and other species.  After finding such mutations, one could then theoretically perform transgenic experiments to demonstrate direct morphological effects and selection coefficients.  This approach could even potentially help determine the order and timing of the important mutation events.

Now, until such experiments are performed what should we do?  Should we conclude that very well known processes observed countless times in many other species could also be operatinig in flatfish evolution?  Or, should we do like like Charlie and throw our hands up in the air and quit, just because we don&#039;t have every little detail of this particular example worked out yet.?  I know which alternative I will choose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, I am forced to admit that this time Charlie has made some valid points.  In order for this to be a really good example of random mutation and natural selection one must determine the mutations involved and demonstrate their morphological effects and their selective advantage.  Until this is done there are still critical pieces of the puzzle missing.</p>
<p>Now let&#8217;s see, I know, how about screening for mutations in regulatory regions of hox genes in flatfish and other species.  After finding such mutations, one could then theoretically perform transgenic experiments to demonstrate direct morphological effects and selection coefficients.  This approach could even potentially help determine the order and timing of the important mutation events.</p>
<p>Now, until such experiments are performed what should we do?  Should we conclude that very well known processes observed countless times in many other species could also be operatinig in flatfish evolution?  Or, should we do like like Charlie and throw our hands up in the air and quit, just because we don&#8217;t have every little detail of this particular example worked out yet.?  I know which alternative I will choose.</p>
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		<title>By: Floundermania! &#124; Deep Sea News</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-15790</link>
		<dc:creator>Floundermania! &#124; Deep Sea News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 00:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/#comment-15790</guid>
		<description>[...] flounders have been flopping all over the place! The maestro of science story-telling, Carl Zimmer, has produced in my opinion one of his finest posts ever at his new blog at Discover Magazine. Head over there now, don&#8217;t delay!, to understand the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] flounders have been flopping all over the place! The maestro of science story-telling, Carl Zimmer, has produced in my opinion one of his finest posts ever at his new blog at Discover Magazine. Head over there now, don&#8217;t delay!, to understand the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Biochemical Soul &#187; Adaptation of the Week - Flatfish Eyes &#38; Recapitulation Theory</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-15070</link>
		<dc:creator>Biochemical Soul &#187; Adaptation of the Week - Flatfish Eyes &#38; Recapitulation Theory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/#comment-15070</guid>
		<description>[...] In a well-known study that was published last summer in Nature and received much media attention, Matt Friedman showed findings from a series of fossils delineating a clear gradual evolution from symmetrical to asymmetrical flaltfishes. (For excellent in-depth coverage looking at this study and the debate over flatfish evolution, see one of my favorite science bloggers, Ed Yong at Not Exactly Rocket Science, and also see the popular science writer Carl Zimmer at The Loom). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In a well-known study that was published last summer in Nature and received much media attention, Matt Friedman showed findings from a series of fossils delineating a clear gradual evolution from symmetrical to asymmetrical flaltfishes. (For excellent in-depth coverage looking at this study and the debate over flatfish evolution, see one of my favorite science bloggers, Ed Yong at Not Exactly Rocket Science, and also see the popular science writer Carl Zimmer at The Loom). [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Yay For Turtle Ancestors! &#124; www.jeffthefish.com</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-12343</link>
		<dc:creator>Yay For Turtle Ancestors! &#124; www.jeffthefish.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/#comment-12343</guid>
		<description>[...] which happens surprisingly often.  I&#8217;ve done it once before, that I can remember, and I missed an awesome one that was written about over the summer.  I created a special category called Transitional Forms so [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] which happens surprisingly often.  I&#8217;ve done it once before, that I can remember, and I missed an awesome one that was written about over the summer.  I created a special category called Transitional Forms so [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Weird Eyes &#124; The Loom &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-10561</link>
		<dc:creator>Weird Eyes &#124; The Loom &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/#comment-10561</guid>
		<description>[...] examples of eyes evolving in weird ways. One example may be familiar to readers of this blog&#8211;the flatfish. The other example, illustrated here, is the stalk-eyed fly. The point I try to make in the piece [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] examples of eyes evolving in weird ways. One example may be familiar to readers of this blog&#8211;the flatfish. The other example, illustrated here, is the stalk-eyed fly. The point I try to make in the piece [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ottawa U</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-8947</link>
		<dc:creator>Ottawa U</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/#comment-8947</guid>
		<description>Oh adam...please..

Global warming is a fact period. It&#039;s partly normal and partly our doing.
What the end effect will be and what we should do about it is another.
I&#039;ve never been an alarmist, but I come to my own conclusions, and spent way too much time researching my own facts.

The real problem is everything gets politicized and confounded, to be polite. That our leaders are Lying asshats and we&#039;re blind 1D10Ts is closer to truth. 

But the fact is Humanity can&#039;t deal with reality, so we live with Fantasia.
Mine is that my wife could never love another...

Yours is that there&#039;s a big old guy in the clouds...

Who&#039;s crazy, who&#039;s sane ? depends....The Golden Rule applies...

Cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh adam&#8230;please..</p>
<p>Global warming is a fact period. It&#8217;s partly normal and partly our doing.<br />
What the end effect will be and what we should do about it is another.<br />
I&#8217;ve never been an alarmist, but I come to my own conclusions, and spent way too much time researching my own facts.</p>
<p>The real problem is everything gets politicized and confounded, to be polite. That our leaders are Lying asshats and we&#8217;re blind 1D10Ts is closer to truth. </p>
<p>But the fact is Humanity can&#8217;t deal with reality, so we live with Fantasia.<br />
Mine is that my wife could never love another&#8230;</p>
<p>Yours is that there&#8217;s a big old guy in the clouds&#8230;</p>
<p>Who&#8217;s crazy, who&#8217;s sane ? depends&#8230;.The Golden Rule applies&#8230;</p>
<p>Cheers.</p>
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