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	<title>Comments on: Missing The Wrist</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/</link>
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		<title>By: Governor Jindal Arranges for Hurricane DI to hit Louisiana in September &#124; Rogue Medic</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8096</link>
		<dc:creator>Governor Jindal Arranges for Hurricane DI to hit Louisiana in September &#124; Rogue Medic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8096</guid>
		<description>[...] Another article is from Discover Magazine, a bit more technical, but it is the use of English that seems to be out of the reach of the DI people. Missing The Wrist. [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Another article is from Discover Magazine, a bit more technical, but it is the use of English that seems to be out of the reach of the DI people. Missing The Wrist. [...] </p>
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		<title>By: They Call Me Mister Zimmer &#124; The Loom &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8095</link>
		<dc:creator>They Call Me Mister Zimmer &#124; The Loom &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:15:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8095</guid>
		<description>[...] with other bloggers, I pointed out that Shubin had given the wrist bone names&#8211;the intermedium and ulnare. Hence the word [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with other bloggers, I pointed out that Shubin had given the wrist bone names&#8211;the intermedium and ulnare. Hence the word [...] </p>
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		<title>By: amphiox</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8094</link>
		<dc:creator>amphiox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 02:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8094</guid>
		<description>Creationists and IDists always seem to miss the importance of self-replication/reproduction whenever they attempt their convoluted logic arguments against evolution. Some kind of mental block, it seems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Creationists and IDists always seem to miss the importance of self-replication/reproduction whenever they attempt their convoluted logic arguments against evolution. Some kind of mental block, it seems.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Wells</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8093</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8093</guid>
		<description>Charlie&#039;s claim that no complex system has ever bootstrapped itself into existence is only true if you accept the initial claim that life as it exists here on earth is not a complex system that bootstrapped itself into existence. Charlie&#039;s argument thus relies on assuming his conclusion. Logic fail, please try again.

We know from both experiment and theory that reproduction with inheritance, variation, and competition does produce increasing complexity; therefore it is perfectly reasonable to propose that the complexity of life as we know it has arisen from this simple, observable process iterated over very long periods of time. We have no reason outside folklore to believe in omnipotent magical creators.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie&#8217;s claim that no complex system has ever bootstrapped itself into existence is only true if you accept the initial claim that life as it exists here on earth is not a complex system that bootstrapped itself into existence. Charlie&#8217;s argument thus relies on assuming his conclusion. Logic fail, please try again.</p>
<p>We know from both experiment and theory that reproduction with inheritance, variation, and competition does produce increasing complexity; therefore it is perfectly reasonable to propose that the complexity of life as we know it has arisen from this simple, observable process iterated over very long periods of time. We have no reason outside folklore to believe in omnipotent magical creators.</p>
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		<title>By: This is What Happens &#171; Recrudescent Religion</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8092</link>
		<dc:creator>This is What Happens &#171; Recrudescent Religion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 04:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8092</guid>
		<description>[...] in point, Carl Zimmer&#8217;s recent post over at his blog at Discover Magazine . In this post, Zimmer takes Casey Luskin, a writer for the [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in point, Carl Zimmer&#8217;s recent post over at his blog at Discover Magazine . In this post, Zimmer takes Casey Luskin, a writer for the [...] </p>
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		<title>By: daniel</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8091</link>
		<dc:creator>daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 07:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8091</guid>
		<description>This is a great article. The only thing that bothers me is this: is it even possible to dispute with idiots? I mean: Wouldn&#039;t the people from Discovery still find some hook in your careful exposé to claim that you&#039;re a partisan anti-creationist writer, in stead of a scientist?

The problem with science is that it is not friendly to the general public. And it shouldn&#039;t be: areas of expertise bring with them their own expert jargon. But that jargon makes the general public believe creationists sooner, because they speak a language they can recognize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a great article. The only thing that bothers me is this: is it even possible to dispute with idiots? I mean: Wouldn&#8217;t the people from Discovery still find some hook in your careful exposé to claim that you&#8217;re a partisan anti-creationist writer, in stead of a scientist?</p>
<p>The problem with science is that it is not friendly to the general public. And it shouldn&#8217;t be: areas of expertise bring with them their own expert jargon. But that jargon makes the general public believe creationists sooner, because they speak a language they can recognize.</p>
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		<title>By: Darwiniana &#187; The false analogy of gravity</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8090</link>
		<dc:creator>Darwiniana &#187; The false analogy of gravity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8090</guid>
		<description>[...] Zimmer at The Loom We’re all for open and objective discussions of scientific theories, right? Who wouldn’t be? If your kids are taking physics in high school, you want them to read critiques of gravity, right? After all, shouldn’t they know that there are some serious weaknesses in the theory of gravity? Right? For instance, the theory of gravity says that gravity makes things fall down. But planets don’t fall into the sun. They go around it. So which is it–down or around? Clearly the theory of gravity is deficient. Right? [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Zimmer at The Loom We’re all for open and objective discussions of scientific theories, right? Who wouldn’t be? If your kids are taking physics in high school, you want them to read critiques of gravity, right? After all, shouldn’t they know that there are some serious weaknesses in the theory of gravity? Right? For instance, the theory of gravity says that gravity makes things fall down. But planets don’t fall into the sun. They go around it. So which is it–down or around? Clearly the theory of gravity is deficient. Right? [...] </p>
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		<title>By: amphiox</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8089</link>
		<dc:creator>amphiox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8089</guid>
		<description>Randy in Calgary: I think we shouldn&#039;t stop at &quot;I don&#039;t know. . .&quot; though of course we must be truthful and say it. But wherever we don&#039;t know, we should always try to have a hypothesis, even if we admit that we have so little evidence our hypothesis is most likely wrong. Without hypotheses to test, science can&#039;t advance. If we have no evidence at all, then we should take the null hypothesis that &quot;there is no cause. It just happened.&quot; The idea that every phenomenona requires a cause is itself a hypothesis that could be wrong, or have exceptions.

This is the last thing I will say here about Mr. Wagner. Reading his material, it seems to me his whole argument stands and falls on a single analogy, and he has rephrased this analogy in so many different ways as to expand a 3 line argument into pages and pages of text, but it is all still the same idea. But his analogy can just as easily be turned around to say the exact opposite. To whit:

1. No intelligent designer has ever been observed to design and build a practical working machine on a molecular scale. No molecular motors. Not even a practically useful inclined plane. Nanotech is still science fiction.
2. No machine, on any scale, has ever been observed to be capable of self-replication. Von Neumann probes are also still science fiction.
3. No intelligent designer has ever been observed to design and build a lifeform.
4. No intelligent designer has ever been observed to even be able to modify a pre-existing lifeform without using tools that were already pre-existing in some other lifeform.
5. There is at least 3000 years of recorded history of known intelligent designers at work, and an archeological record dating back over 2 million years. (Far longer than the 20 year Lenski experiment, for comparison)
6. There is a 3.8 billion year fossil record, and astronomial observations dating back to almost 13 billion years, and nowhere is there any evidence of any other intelligent designers more capable than the ones considerd in #5.

By the above, I can easily conclude with the same logic that the mechanism of intelligence is clearly utterly insufficient, incapable, obviously too feeble, to design and build the complex, organized, self-replicating entity otherwise known as life. The only alternate, therefore, is random mutation, genetic drift, natural selection, and the other mechanisms of the theory of evolution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Randy in Calgary: I think we shouldn&#8217;t stop at &#8220;I don&#8217;t know. . .&#8221; though of course we must be truthful and say it. But wherever we don&#8217;t know, we should always try to have a hypothesis, even if we admit that we have so little evidence our hypothesis is most likely wrong. Without hypotheses to test, science can&#8217;t advance. If we have no evidence at all, then we should take the null hypothesis that &#8220;there is no cause. It just happened.&#8221; The idea that every phenomenona requires a cause is itself a hypothesis that could be wrong, or have exceptions.</p>
<p>This is the last thing I will say here about Mr. Wagner. Reading his material, it seems to me his whole argument stands and falls on a single analogy, and he has rephrased this analogy in so many different ways as to expand a 3 line argument into pages and pages of text, but it is all still the same idea. But his analogy can just as easily be turned around to say the exact opposite. To whit:</p>
<p>1. No intelligent designer has ever been observed to design and build a practical working machine on a molecular scale. No molecular motors. Not even a practically useful inclined plane. Nanotech is still science fiction.<br />
2. No machine, on any scale, has ever been observed to be capable of self-replication. Von Neumann probes are also still science fiction.<br />
3. No intelligent designer has ever been observed to design and build a lifeform.<br />
4. No intelligent designer has ever been observed to even be able to modify a pre-existing lifeform without using tools that were already pre-existing in some other lifeform.<br />
5. There is at least 3000 years of recorded history of known intelligent designers at work, and an archeological record dating back over 2 million years. (Far longer than the 20 year Lenski experiment, for comparison)<br />
6. There is a 3.8 billion year fossil record, and astronomial observations dating back to almost 13 billion years, and nowhere is there any evidence of any other intelligent designers more capable than the ones considerd in #5.</p>
<p>By the above, I can easily conclude with the same logic that the mechanism of intelligence is clearly utterly insufficient, incapable, obviously too feeble, to design and build the complex, organized, self-replicating entity otherwise known as life. The only alternate, therefore, is random mutation, genetic drift, natural selection, and the other mechanisms of the theory of evolution.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8088</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8088</guid>
		<description>Has anyone figured out what motivates the creationists? What could they be hoping to gain? I assume Luskin just does it for money but what about the people who pay him? If it&#039;s worth violating one of their own Ten Commandments by lying to children they must believe it&#039;s quite valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone figured out what motivates the creationists? What could they be hoping to gain? I assume Luskin just does it for money but what about the people who pay him? If it&#8217;s worth violating one of their own Ten Commandments by lying to children they must believe it&#8217;s quite valuable.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy in Calgary</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8087</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy in Calgary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:04:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/14/746/#comment-8087</guid>
		<description>@ Charlie Wagner

Do you not see how empty the First Cause Argument is? &quot;Because of this, you eventually must come to a primary cause, which religions call God.&quot; Might as well call it &quot;mashed potatoes&quot;. Either way it&#039;s vacuous. Even if there was a First Cause (and I dispute that this is necessarily so), since we have no mechanism at this point in science&#039;s fledgling existence for how the universe came into being, we can make no inference on the cause itself. Thus, the only appropriate answer to the question of the universe&#039;s existence is &quot;I don&#039;t know how it came into being.&quot; What you and everyone else has done since this argument came about (and really, it only sounds good - it is otherwise completely vacuous) is try to stuff god in the gaps of our knowledge. This is not positive evidence for a designer, or a creator, or whatever and the argument reduces to &quot;I can&#039;t figure out what the First Cause is, so it must be god.&quot; Not exactly a worthy argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Charlie Wagner</p>
<p>Do you not see how empty the First Cause Argument is? &#8220;Because of this, you eventually must come to a primary cause, which religions call God.&#8221; Might as well call it &#8220;mashed potatoes&#8221;. Either way it&#8217;s vacuous. Even if there was a First Cause (and I dispute that this is necessarily so), since we have no mechanism at this point in science&#8217;s fledgling existence for how the universe came into being, we can make no inference on the cause itself. Thus, the only appropriate answer to the question of the universe&#8217;s existence is &#8220;I don&#8217;t know how it came into being.&#8221; What you and everyone else has done since this argument came about (and really, it only sounds good &#8211; it is otherwise completely vacuous) is try to stuff god in the gaps of our knowledge. This is not positive evidence for a designer, or a creator, or whatever and the argument reduces to &#8220;I can&#8217;t figure out what the First Cause is, so it must be god.&#8221; Not exactly a worthy argument.</p>
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